Workshop #4 - Baby’s Early Years; Vaccination - Page 5

[Kiddoson]

Originally Posted by alegna

Actually, sadly (and most likely illegally- but it stands until challenged) in NY you DO have to explain yourself...

-Angela

Is that new?We lived in NY til DD was 3...

[alegna]

Originally Posted by Kiddoson

Is that new?We lived in NY til DD was 3...

No, not new, but enforced differently in different areas.

-Angela

[calendula]

So if you do have to explain yourself in NY (which is what I'd heard) does anyone know what that means exactly? Do you, for example, have to quote from "your" religious texts? Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks.

[pitchfork]

I'd like to know as well about the religious exemption in NY state, as we are in NYC. I worry that we will hit some really tough stuff when it comes to school age.

We have not vaxed at all, and DS had seizures at birth (they were an electrolyte imbalance, so no real threat of them recurring) but I have seen a history of seizures listed as a contraindiation for vaxing, so I use that as an "excuse" if a conversation on it goes weird.

My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?

It has been my experience that it's easy to be at least moderately comfortable, if not outright self-righteous with a non-mainstream choice as long as there are no real scary consequences. For instance, I felt totally comfortable with planning a home birth, and then we had life threatening complications. Just the thing that people scare you with about HB. I don't regret my HB, in fact I plan to have a second child at home as well, but I have had to do some soul searching. It was easy before the life/death situation to be a tad smug about HB.

With vax, I have to accept the possibilty, however remote, of my child getting a serious illness. Having already watched my child almost die, I get it that healthy living does not prevent serious medical issues. Just like so many choices in parenthood, the responsibility is heavy...

[alegna]

NY is tricky. Those of you there- I suggest a thorough search of the vax forums for info. It's not difficult to create a proper letter that won't get thrown out, but it is a more complex requirement than other states.

-Angela

[alegna]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?

We've not (as far as I know) had any of the vaccine available diseases yet.

There are several posters who have dealt with some of them though.

-Angela

[sunanthem]

We havent gotten any either, but if we did, I would probably stay home with my children and nurse them through it. I had a friend who does not vax whose kids got whooping cough, and thats what she did, I dont believe her views on vaccines changed at all.
Here's a link that might help some of you in NY, its New Yorkers for vaccine info and choice; http://goodlight.net/nyvic/

[Kiddoson]

Originally Posted by sunanthem

We havent gotten any either, but if we did, I would probably stay home with my children and nurse them through it. I had a friend who does not vax whose kids got whooping cough, and thats what she did, I dont believe her views on vaccines changed at all.

Nor would it for me, esp since vaccinated children get it too....
My DS got RSV @ 5 months, we were admited to the hospital, he never went in the "crib" and we nursed through it. Didn't change my thoughts on vaccines one bit.

[mtnsunshinemama]

My son is almost 3 and has had no vaccines yet. We did our research before he was born and then opted to wait. Now, with an appt. on Friday we are thinking of starting a selective schedule.
We'll look at the research again, but can any selective vaxxers tell me which they started or would start with?

Especially considering he has a 5 month old sister, goes to a small (6 kids) daycare 2 X week and there is a lot of whooping cough in our county?

[Arwyn]

There's a whole Selective/Delayed forum here. And here's a thread with people sharing their S/D schedule.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by mtnsunshinemama

Especially considering he has a 5 month old sister, goes to a small (6 kids) daycare 2 X week and there is a lot of whooping cough in our county?

Be aware that the pertussis (WC) vaccine does NOT prevent transmission.

-Angela

[EmilyM]

I am a speech pathologist and worked with autistic children all throughout grad school, so I was exposed to the autism/vaccine theories from these kids' parents early on. This made me wary when my daughter was born in January of 07. She was dx'd with a congenital heart defect (mild pulmonary stenosis), at her 2 week checkup and it sent me into a horrific, anxiety ridden state. It was like I didn't have the energy to question her shots although I didn't ever feel "right" about them. After her 6 month appointment she ran a high fever and cried on and off for 48 hours, when her occipital lymph nodes became hugely swollen I freaked out and called the hospital. They told me it was a reaction to the vaccinations and that I should take her to the doctor. The next day doc told me that "it was probably the DTaP and it will be worse next time, but at least she will be 18 mos and can tell you she doesn't feel well". She also told me the huge nodes were always from trauma to the scalp, and "did she have a scratch that you weren't aware of"? Guess who won't be getting her booster next week. I am going to seek a medical exemption but am pretty sure that won't happen given doc's previous thoughts on the subject. She wasn't too pushy when we refused the MMR and CP shots, just had us sign the waiver, so I guess we'll see. Everyday I question myself, but know that I cannot stand there while they vaccinate her and then wait for what "worse" will be. My daughter is supposed to start a private Montessori this Fall and I wonder if they will even take her once they get the medical forms. It is sad, I don't trust the FDA or the CDC or the drug companies. It is hard to be a parent today. I am even questioning having another child.

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

Originally Posted by EmilyM

I am a speech pathologist and worked with autistic children all throughout grad school, so I was exposed to the autism/vaccine theories from these kids' parents early on. This made me wary when my daughter was born in January of 07. She was dx'd with a congenital heart defect (mild pulmonary stenosis), at her 2 week checkup and it sent me into a horrific, anxiety ridden state. It was like I didn't have the energy to question her shots although I didn't ever feel "right" about them. After her 6 month appointment she ran a high fever and cried on and off for 48 hours, when her occipital lymph nodes became hugely swollen I freaked out and called the hospital. They told me it was a reaction to the vaccinations and that I should take her to the doctor. The next day doc told me that "it was probably the DTaP and it will be worse next time, but at least she will be 18 mos and can tell you she doesn't feel well". She also told me the huge nodes were always from trauma to the scalp, and "did she have a scratch that you weren't aware of"? Guess who won't be getting her booster next week. I am going to seek a medical exemption but am pretty sure that won't happen given doc's previous thoughts on the subject. She wasn't too pushy when we refused the MMR and CP shots, just had us sign the waiver, so I guess we'll see. Everyday I question myself, but know that I cannot stand there while they vaccinate her and then wait for what "worse" will be. My daughter is supposed to start a private Montessori in this Fall and I wonder if they will even take her once they get the medical forms. It is sad, I don't trust the FDA or the CDC or the drug companies. It is hard to be parent today. I am even questioning having another child.

Thank you for sharing this. This is exactly the sort of story that scares me most-- it seems to me that a good doctor in this situation-- even if she believed whole-heartedly in vaccinating-- would say, "Well, let's be glad that she has some immunity which will hopefully get her through 12 mos without pertussis, and now we know that she shouldn't get the Dtap again." Yes-- it really is sad.

[CrunchyMamaToBe]

I'm so glad that I am not the only one who feels overwhelmed by the vaccination issue. Glad that this workshop is here... the vaccines forum can be really intimidating!!!

We haven't vaccinated our 20 month old son at all. We're open to it, we were especially open to it in the case of whooping cough through his first winter, but not 'open' enough to seek out a health care provider that would offer it as a single vaccine rather than through the '5-in-1' that's offered here in the UK. Now that he's out of the 'danger zone' for whooping cough, I feel much less compelled to a) do any more research or b) actually go out and find the vaccines.

We now know that we're going to be moving back to the US in 2-3 years, so DS will start school there. Who knows what state. I don't want to get backed into a corner over the vaccines and end up having to give him 15 shots in one summer so that he can go to school. (Vaccines aren't required for school entry here.) Which makes me think we should start working on a delayed schedule for him, but the idea of injecting aluminum and formaldehyde into my baby makes my hair stand on end.

On a side note, my son had chicken pox a few months ago (aged 17 months). He caught it from *his father* !!! If anyone is wondering whether to expose their babe to CP, I say go for it. Having watched two cases one right after the other, I would much prefer to nurse a toddler through CP than an adult.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by CrunchyMamaToBe

We haven't vaccinated our 20 month old son at all. We're open to it, we were especially open to it in the case of whooping cough through his first winter, but not 'open' enough to seek out a health care provider that would offer it as a single vaccine rather than through the '5-in-1' that's offered here in the UK. Now that he's out of the 'danger zone' for whooping cough, I feel much less compelled to a) do any more research or b) actually go out and find the vaccines.

Two bits of info- 1. the pertussis (WC) vaccine is not available solo. The smallest combo it's available as is DTaP.

2. Winter actually isn't pertussis season. Late summer/early fall is.

-Angela

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by CrunchyMamaToBe

but not 'open' enough to seek out a health care provider that would offer it as a single vaccine rather than through the '5-in-1' that's offered here in the UK.

The aP part is not available as a single vaccine anywhere AFAK.

Originally Posted by CrunchyMamaToBe

We now know that we're going to be moving back to the US in 2-3 years, so DS will start school there. Who knows what state. I don't want to get backed into a corner over the vaccines and end up having to give him 15 shots in one summer so that he can go to school. (Vaccines aren't required for school entry here.) Which makes me think we should start working on a delayed schedule for him, but the idea of injecting aluminum and formaldehyde into my baby makes my hair stand on end.

Every state in the US with the exception of Mississippi and West Virginia offer a religious exemption some also offer a philosophical one. You don't HAVE to vaccinate for school entry in the US.

[Sileree]

Originally Posted by Writerbird

However, I went ahead and authorized it at his two month visit - the reason is is that the CDC reports that 30% of the people with Hep B acquired it in childhood.

Where did you get that number? I'm just curious. The Pink Book states that 4% of acute infections occur in the perinatal period, 4% in childhood and 8% in adolescence.

[lachingona1]

I'll add some more to my last post....


In 1991 VAERS (vaccine adverse effect reporting system) was set up by the FDA and CDC. There was no record keeping agency in the US prior to that where physicians could report vaccine reactions. In 1986 The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act law was signed y Reagan that let drug companies off the hook when children died form side effects by decreeing, no vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages or death from vaccines.
VAERS is an offshoot of that act.

33,000 reactions were reported between 1992 and 1996. Before then no one knows because there was no reporting agency.

Everyone was saying how safe vaccines were, but how would they know if no one was keeping track of the reactions? The majority of doctors simply don't report adverse reactions to vaccines. The FDA estimates that doctors only report 10% of adverse reactions. So, at only 10%, thats over 330,000 actual reactions in a five year period. ONly 2% of doctors admit that they report reactions, because they think that if they report a true adverse reaction it will contribute to a lack of public confidence in vaccination, therefore decreasing their paychecks! It is entirely possible that only 1% gets reported to VAERS.

So the FDA estimates only 11,000 serious reactions a year, thats involving either death or hospitalization. If this is only 10% then thats 110,000 reactions per year. If the true figure is really 1% of actual reactions, which possible because no one has ever kept tracked, that means that there could be 1.1 million serious adverse reactions per year involving death, permanent injury or hospitalization . Such epidemic could actually be in place in the US now and no one is even studying it!

There is also no follow up done by the CDC and FDA with all these reports of death and neurological damage to infants, follow up wasn't part of the original design.

Also according to VAERS rules, reporting has to be done within 7 days of the vaccine. SO if your infant dies 8 days later, that is not counted as a reaction to vaccines. By 1999, 5385 petitions for damages had been filed with VAERS. Because of the legal obstacles and paperwork involves only about 1300 have ever collected. Even so the total amount recovered for vaccine damages is 1.24 billion. This money comes not from the vaccines companies but from government funds i.e, the taxpayers.


So to lay this out:

~It is something like 40 vaccines are mandated by law in the US for kids under 6 years.

~No one knows how many thousands have died or suffered, since there was no reporting agency until 1991.

~The drug companies are immune from prosecution by federal law.

~ Even though a reporting agency is in place, less that 10% of actual ill effects are reported.

~The reporting system didn't include follow-ups of the reported cases.

~Compensation for the reactions is borne by the taxpayers.

[goddessjulia]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

My question is this:
Have any of you with unvaxed DCs actually had their child get a scary disease? Did it change how you felt about vaxing?
<snip>
With vax, I have to accept the possibilty, however remote, of my child getting a serious illness. Having already watched my child almost die, I get it that healthy living does not prevent serious medical issues. Just like so many choices in parenthood, the responsibility is heavy...

: every choice we make has such potentially far-reaching implications!! but if we sweat too much we'll just be beating ourselves up all the time (ask me how I know ). we may have been exposed to pertussis when ds was... maybe 3? 2 friends, both nonvaxers, got it. ds did not, although I should add that it was one playdate and they were not showing signs yet. I don't think either mom changed their minds about not vaxing. I've lost touch with one of the moms, but the other is still a dear friend and it was really amazing and beautiful to me to watch her go through her firstborn having pertussis and not ever panicking! she even managed to avoid antibiotics (pertussis is a bacterial infection, so antibiotics can potentially be effective against it) and synthetic otc treatments. he had the lingering cough for months, and she told me that it got kinda bad a few times but never severe, and on they went. that's as close as we've come so far.

my non-vaxing path went like this: I read before ds was born about these risks, and the diseases. I am a bit too suspicious of profit-driven "medicine" and so was inclined against it anyways (plus I guess I kinda like being a rebel ). I read an older edition of Mendelssohn's book-- How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor. it sounded to me like the diseases, with the exceptions of polio and pertussis, were almost never severe (certainly not in this modern world with the resources we have available). and, I read that half of new pertussis cases are in vaxed individuals, so I thought that made the risk there not worth it. with ds we did do the first 2 polio shots because I was just too scared of polio, but we didn't do any others. with him we had a great ped who told me vaccines were basically "just a social contract" and who couldn't care less if I did any of them. since moving we have an OK family dr, but she is pro-vax and has even pressured me about it with dd who just turned one. however, she backed off when I calmly said no to her "aren't you worried about--??" comments. it's not that I'm not worried, it's just that so many other things are so much more likely to happen, kwim? anyway, with dd we have done no shots. when she is older, like preteen or teen, we'll talk about rubella and pregnancy risks and research that at that time. and, if we ever do any international travel I'll have to reevaluate depending on where we're going, I guess.

I think the only thing that would be a reason for me to have a different approach would be if I knew my child was immunocompromised in some way, or had some congenital defect such that getting through a challenging illness would be unusually difficult. then I'd probably think I should use the vaccines to protect my child. we have religious exemption here in GA, so if they ever go to school it's not much of an issue (unless you count the issue of having to call it a religious reason, but that's not a battle for me to take on!). as it stands they are/will be homeschooled and I don't see that changing anytime soon

[RasJi7]

DS was born in the US and I declined the HepB fully thinking I would come back to my husband's country (British Virgin Islands) and go with their schedule which doesn't start vaxes until 2months of age.

At 2months old I took him for his checkup and they wanted to do Dtap (Except here it is a 5-in-1 including HepB) They only had 3 of the 5 (they put them into one syringe needle thing and do them all at once. DS just got a clight fever after which I kept down by walking outside with him in the moby wrap on a cooler evening and kept wiping his head with a wet wash cloth I had brought with me. By the next day he was fine.

Then I started researching vaccines (I had spent my time pg researching BFing as I knew I would have little to no support here and then I had a cesarean and had complications from that so research on the vax was delayed) and someone pointed me to a website that listed the vax ingredients. Besides having a problem with heavy metals (which pg women are told to avoid throughout pg and then their baby comes into the world and they encouraged to inject heavy metals into their child?!?!) I have a problem with the animal tissue and the aborted fetal matter.

Having a vegan diet and constantly striving for the path of non-violence I do not support kiling animals for food or for science expeirments (I am however a organ/body donor for when I die). Also I wonder if the women that came to the difficult decision to have an abortion would have consented to their fetus's tissue being injected into other people's chidren? My gut tells me they wouldn't have agreed to that and it sounds like some kind of frankenstein science to me.

My DH was already leary of the vaccines before doing our research so he was easy to convince when I decided I didn't want them. I continue to share the info with him in case he ever needs to present an argument or just wants to inform someone. Besides him I tell my Mom, a baby boomer who wants the best for me and her only grandchild no matter what so she was nervous about it (also grew up during the height of vax propaganda) but reads all the info i send her about vaxing and I am about to send her a book list from this thread for her to check out from her library in Asheville, NC (a crunchy town indeed). I know that she will go get them out, read them and report back to me- she is all around wonderful like that and the biggest blessing in my life- her love is a self-less and unconditional love and because of her I know how to be a human being and a Mom.

This is getting long... I am in the BVI where vaxes are not yet being questioned. God put me on the path to meet the one person who has decided to take a stand against having to vax. She is a young empress (rasta woman) and has researched and written her own exemption letter which is currently circulating through the ministries (govt departments). She is leading the way and I am right behind her, not because i think that everyone should stop vaxing but because I believe it should be a choice and that it is our right as parents to decide what we inject into our children.

I do not plan on telling DH's family who generally have strong opinions about things without little or no research, just go with whatever they are feeling at the moment. They have been a source of stress but also a catalyst for growth as far as my ability to remain graceful in any circumstance. It is my goal to be very well-spoken about the diseases and vaxes (history of them as well as current ingredients, etc) and natural immunity before they know so that I can present them with these facts. They will undoubtedly still have their strong opinions on what a crazy white girl I am but I don't think the reaction will be as strong as if I just said we don't 'feel' like it's the right decision for us.

I am curious about this post "I agree with the pp that the fear mongoring and $$ on both sides of the issue really gets in the way and in the end it is kids who suffer. This is maddening to me." What monetary gain is on the side of non-vaxing? just curious if there is another aspect of this I am not thinking of because I can't think of any gain for those not vaxing. $$$ on the side of vaxin for the industry but not on the other side, right?