I kicked a dog yesterday :( - Page 3

[wombatclay]

Is there a mixed smile/sad smilie?

I placed a report with Animal Control (the SPCA where we adopted Paco is the AC center as well). I gave a complete description of the dogs and the place it happened (on the public road, though our neighbor owns 18 or so acres so technically the wood that borders the road is his property), but didn't name the owners. I know, I'm a wuss, but this way there is a report on file.

I want to talk with both neighbors together but don't want to do so in front of dd1 (who is still having trouble, we went outside this morning but as soon as she heard a dog barking in the distance she broke down... it's going to be another tough day). Since I can't leave the girls alone we need to wait till DH gets home this evening or go over tomorrow morning. Which is fine by me since I really do think Mr. Neighbor will take this more seriously from DH.

It's ironic though... we moved here from a more urban area (just 20 minutes away) because of all the drug/gang related violence happening in our immediate block or two. I know all the police dispatchers by name since for the past 5 years I've called them almost every night. I used to sit for hours on our porch and take pictures of the drug dealers (I'd wave, take their pictures, and play the "too stupid to realize this is a dumb idea so don't bother threatening me but I'm still getting you on camera you jerk" role) which helped keep things a bit quieter. But when dd1 found a crack baggie actually on our porch (in a puddle of pee), and DH had to help the police id a shooter who ran through our backyard, DH and I decided we couldn't wait for the gentrification any longer and moved someplace where I could SAH and where the girls could play outside.

And now this. I'm furious. Thank you all for helping me past the "denial" phase and into the "frakin' mad" phase. I've read Protecting the Gift and realize that if I translated this from "dog" to "child/person" I'd be all over it in a minute. I guess I was letting the fact that Lady Dog was behaving on instinct rather than malice sort of cloud the issue.

DH's thought about Lady Dog is that Dog is comfortable in his dominance over Lady Dog, but Lady Dog is not confident in her position in the pack so she is "pushing" harder to maintain her place as second in command?

[WaitingForKiddos]

Dogs that are acting vicious and are off leash and bother me/mykid/my leashed dog would get far more than a kick. Don't feel bad.

[nummies]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

Is there a mixed smile/sad smilie?

I placed a report with Animal Control (the SPCA where we adopted Paco is the AC center as well). I gave a complete description of the dogs and the place it happened (on the public road, though our neighbor owns 18 or so acres so technically the wood that borders the road is his property), but didn't name the owners. I know, I'm a wuss, but this way there is a report on file.

I want to talk with both neighbors together but don't want to do so in front of dd1 (who is still having trouble, we went outside this morning but as soon as she heard a dog barking in the distance she broke down... it's going to be another tough day). Since I can't leave the girls alone we need to wait till DH gets home this evening or go over tomorrow morning. Which is fine by me since I really do think Mr. Neighbor will take this more seriously from DH.

It's ironic though... we moved here from a more urban area (just 20 minutes away) because of all the drug/gang related violence happening in our immediate block or two. I know all the police dispatchers by name since for the past 5 years I've called them almost every night. I used to sit for hours on our porch and take pictures of the drug dealers (I'd wave, take their pictures, and play the "too stupid to realize this is a dumb idea so don't bother threatening me but I'm still getting you on camera you jerk" role) which helped keep things a bit quieter. But when dd1 found a crack baggie actually on our porch (in a puddle of pee), and DH had to help the police id a shooter who ran through our backyard, DH and I decided we couldn't wait for the gentrification any longer and moved someplace where I could SAH and where the girls could play outside.

And now this. I'm furious. Thank you all for helping me past the "denial" phase and into the "frakin' mad" phase. I've read Protecting the Gift and realize that if I translated this from "dog" to "child/person" I'd be all over it in a minute. I guess I was letting the fact that Lady Dog was behaving on instinct rather than malice sort of cloud the issue.

DH's thought about Lady Dog is that Dog is comfortable in his dominance over Lady Dog, but Lady Dog is not confident in her position in the pack so she is "pushing" harder to maintain her place as second in command?

I am glad you are to the mad stage now. As I was reading through, I was thinking to myself, "how is she not livid?!" I really hope that everything works out ok.

We own a boxer. She is a very sweet dog and so good around kids. But if she ever even tried to go after a child, she would be put down. Kids are more important. Period. Sounds like they aren't good pet owners.

[AlbertaJes]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

DH's thought about Lady Dog is that Dog is comfortable in his dominance over Lady Dog, but Lady Dog is not confident in her position in the pack so she is "pushing" harder to maintain her place as second in command?

Generally with dogs, it is the female who is the dominant.

[Norasmomma]

I am so glad that you made a report. I know that you have mixed feelings, but the safety of your family and your neighborhood is above the upsetting an irresponsible neighbor. Like I said I too like in the country, and I know that it isn't great to upset the neighbors, but I also wouldn't have one bit of a problem if something similar happened to DD. I totally get the good ol boy mentality, and the lame sexist dude remarks(don't like it but the guy is from that awful cloth), I have seen it myself.

If you are going to walk anymore(even your DH w/ Paco) you do need some type of protection, I like the ammonia idea and a big freakin stick.

I have a German Shepard and a lab mix both are wonderful dogs, but my G.S. ran out of our yard when we were outside and ran at a jogger with her dog, not in a malicious way so much as a "hey dog who are you?" sort of way. She didn't listen when DH and I called her, she was immediately tied for the afternoon for not listening and misbehaving. If she EVER did anything vicious she'd be gone, I love her, but she is a dog and they have to not act this way.

I think for me one of the worst things is boxers are a really gentle breed, but MR. JERK of a neighbor has let his dogs rule the roost and become aggressive. Shame on him, his dog did attack your DD and your dog, well it in essence was all of you and she continues to act in an aggressive manner. It sounds to me like talking to him *may* not do anything, it usually doesn't with these good ol boy types. At least there is a report, it's just too bad that it's not the cops coming to his house to talk to him about his bad dog ownership

[bigeyes]

Because my knee jerk response is often the wrong one, I was wondering if anyone else thinks it might be empowering for the OP's daughter to have a little squirter of her own?

Or would that be making the situation worse?

It sucks that she's so afraid.

[Alyantavid]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

Because my knee jerk response is often the wrong one, I was wondering if anyone else thinks it might be empowering for the OP's daughter to have a little squirter of her own?

Or would that be making the situation worse?

It sucks that she's so afraid.

I think that's a fabulous idea. I know with my 6 year old, something like that would make a ton of difference in his confidence around dogs. He'd still be timid, but he'd feel that he had some control.

[WaitingForKiddos]

Oh I LOVE the squirt gun idea!!

[paquerette]

One thing that DH told me when we were living in a neighborhood with lose, dangerous dogs: if one of us got bit, kill the dog if possible, and don't damage the head. Aim for the lungs or throat. Obviously, you have to gauge your strength vs. the dog's build, and whether you could really kill it with kicking or if you had another weapon handy, because you don't want to just piss it off. But I would never feel guilty about defending myself or my child. And any bite from an unknown, untestable dog, even if the bite itself was not a serious wound, would be risking our lives with a rabies series. It's worth a dog's life to try to keep that from happening.

[SevenVeils]

I'm obviously in the minority here, but I don't like the squirt gun idea at all. It seems to me that it would be cementing the "if something is scary, kill it" connection, after all this is just a small child.

[marimara]

You did the right thing. You protected your child and dog. You're a warrior!!! I had to fight off two rottweilers once with a lead pipe after they attacked my mini poodle (who ended up dying 2 wks later from infection) and bit my hand. I though while I was hitting them that I might kill them but it didn't matter, my animal instincts took over. When you are in a situation like that, instinct takes over and you do what you have to do. Good job mama!!! Also you prob should report this because what if next time they really do get a hold of your daughter or dog?

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by SevenVeils

I'm obviously in the minority here, but I don't like the squirt gun idea at all. It seems to me that it would be cementing the "if something is scary, kill it" connection, after all this is just a small child.

But she's not trying to kill the dog, just squirt water in it's face so it doesn't knock her down.

I mean, if there's something other than a water gun that would serve the same purpose, then I'd probably choose that, but I have yet to see something. And unless the parent is doing/saying other things to make the child think the dog must die, I think that connection is kind of far fetched. Sorry. Just throwing that out there.

Though having said that, I think a water gun is useless in a situation like this. I can of pepper spray is what I'd be carrying. I obviously wouldn't let the child use it, but if the dogs came anywhere near us they'd get it.

But a word of warning - it takes experience to use pepper spray. I've grown up in the bush and carried it for bear and cougar protection, and you have to take into account the spray, and wind, what direction they'll retreat in, and what direction you'll retreat in, otherwise you'll just walk into it. So definitely don't just go out and buy a can of it without having someone show you how to use it.

[SevenVeils]

I'm possibly overly leery of anything to encourage the whole "attack it if it scares me" thing. Were the child older, I would agree. But with such a young child, it is too easy to inadvertently teach the wrong lesson.

But that's just me.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by SevenVeils

I'm obviously in the minority here, but I don't like the squirt gun idea at all. It seems to me that it would be cementing the "if something is scary, kill it" connection, after all this is just a small child.

That was my concern, which was why I asked what everyone else thought.
Is the possibility of her getting some of her power back by carrying the squirtgun worth the possibility of her internalizing the idea that we shoot at things that scare us?

Or, can it be explained in a way that prevents that idea from taking root?

[SevenVeils]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

That was my concern, which was why I asked what everyone else thought.
Is the possibility of her getting some of her power back by carrying the squirtgun worth the possibility of her internalizing the idea that we shoot at things that scare us?

Or, can it be explained in a way that prevents that idea from taking root?

If she were older, I'd say it could be explained away but given her age, and the extremity of her fear, I would personally not feel comfortable with it.

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by SevenVeils

I'm possibly overly leery of anything to encourage the whole "attack it if it scares me" thing. Were the child older, I would agree. But with such a young child, it is too easy to inadvertently teach the wrong lesson.

But that's just me.

Hmm, I see a HUGE difference between protection and defense, and an "attack" on an innocent animal. But, I grew up going into ares of the bush where one needs to think of protection (from grizzlies, moose cows and calves, bulls in rut, cougars, wolves, etc). It's just a different way of life, and you know from an early age that protecting yourself from an animal is NOT the same as "must kill big scary creatures".

So to me that connection seems a bit silly. And at the end of the day, these dogs aren't doing anything more than acting like dogs without human leadership. That situation can get dangerous very quickly. And if you're living rurally, unless you hole up in your house, you're eventually going to have to protect yourself from an animal sooner or later, even it's just a broom and a raccoon. There's nothing abnormal about that to me. As long as humans go into animal territory, it's inevitable. And as long as idiot dog owners choose not to socialize their pets, the general public will have to protect themselves from those animals too.

And a lot of times, animals can be habituated to learn that approaching humans is scary. We had to install bear bombs near our feed room one year because they kept ripping apart the horse and chicken feed. It's nothing more than a loud BOOM, similar to discharging a fire arm, that is motion detected. It worked. They stopped coming so close.

So if you're going to use a squirt gun or pepper spray to deter the dogs while you're out walking, you're not trying to kill them, you're trying to habituate them from attacking or approaching. That's the reality of the situation, and there is NOTHING wrong with protection one's self.

Now if you walked down to the their house and squirted them without provocation, then it would be an "attack" on them.

And actually, going too far in the opposite direction, of not wanting to protect one's self from an animal attack, can be dangerous too. I think the real lesson here is understanding what is dangerous behavior from an animal, and when you should protect yourself, not the means by which you act on that. Because in reality, kicking a dog and making physical contact with them when they are in that mode of approach is not safe. It is in fact better to deter them without having to touch them.

So if the options here are to continue kicking the dog or carry a squirt gun, absolutely carry the squirt gun. It is much safer than kicking or physically touching the dog.

[thekimballs]

Mace. And/or an air horn, but I'd mace the dog.

[SevenVeils]

Originally Posted by North_Of_60

Hmm, I see a HUGE difference between protection and defense, and an "attack" on an innocent animal. But, I grew up going into ares of the bush where one needs to think of protection (from grizzlies, moose cows and calves, bulls in rut, cougars, wolves, etc). It's just a different way of life, and you know from an early age that protecting yourself from an animal is NOT the same as "must kill big scary creatures".

So to me that connection seems a bit silly. And at the end of the day, these dogs aren't doing anything more than acting like dogs without human leadership. That situation can get dangerous very quickly. And if you're living rurally, unless you hole up in your house, you're eventually going to have to protect yourself from an animal sooner or later, even it's just a broom and a raccoon. There's nothing abnormal about that to me. As long as humans go into animal territory, it's inevitable. And as long as idiot dog owners choose not to socialize their pets, the general public will have to protect themselves from those animals too.

And a lot of times, animals can be habituated to learn that approaching humans is scary. We had to install bear bombs near our feed room one year because they kept ripping apart the horse and chicken feed. It's nothing more than a loud BOOM, similar to discharging a fire arm, that is motion detected. It worked. They stopped coming so close.

So if you're going to use a squirt gun or pepper spray to deter the dogs while you're out walking, you're not trying to kill them, you're trying to habituate them from attacking or approaching. That's the reality of the situation, and there is NOTHING wrong with protection one's self.

Now if you walked down to the their house and squirted them without provocation, then it would be an "attack" on them.

And actually, going too far in the opposite direction, of not wanting to protect one's self from an animal attack, can be dangerous too. I think the real lesson here is understanding what is dangerous behavior from an animal, and when you should protect yourself, not the means by which you act on that. Because in reality, kicking a dog and making physical contact with them when they are in that mode of approach is not safe. It is in fact better to deter them without having to touch them.

So if the options here are to continue kicking the dog or carry a squirt gun, absolutely carry the squirt gun. It is much safer than kicking or physically touching the dog.

Um, I agree with all of this. My concern is that a 6 year old child, especially one who is already terrified, is going to misconstrue. I wouldn't allow my 6 year old to go walking down a road alone in a situation like this, and the adult who is accompanying her should absolutely be armed- with mace, squirt gun, super soaker, air horn, pepper spray, stout pipe, club, baseball bat, whatever.

[veronicalynne]

Originally Posted by Kleine Hexe

You do everything in your power to protect your child. If that means kicking a dog....if that means killing a dog, I would never ever hesitate. Child trumps dog at all costs.

Tell the neighbors the dog actually attacked your child and they need to keep their dog(s) under control. If not you will contact the authorities. No ifs, ands, or buts. The safety of children is the utmost importance.

For the record my DH is the type of person to shoot a dog if it ever attacked his child. So I'd have to call animal control fast...like before DH came home. There would be no talking to the neighbors for him.

: Mind you, we live in Canada so the gun part doesn't apply...but he would be doing whatever he had to do to ensure the dog never, ever attacked his child again (legally I mean). I love animals but those dogs should not be wandering loose at all...no exceptions. And now that they have attacked your child.......I would not care what problem it might cause with the neighbours.......your dog attacks my child...all bets are off and I will do whatever I have to do to get them locked up (fenced in i mean) to make damn sure they dont attack again.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by SevenVeils

Um, I agree with all of this. My concern is that a 6 year old child, especially one who is already terrified, is going to misconstrue. I wouldn't allow my 6 year old to go walking down a road alone in a situation like this, and the adult who is accompanying her should absolutely be armed- with mace, squirt gun, super soaker, air horn, pepper spray, stout pipe, club, baseball bat, whatever.

True.

But it sounds like she's turning around and wanting to go back even with mom.



Maybe it's more appropriate for her to just know Mom will protect her now. In that case, I would totally be totin' the super soaker and big stick.