what is it with having female friends??!!

[~*Guest]

I am feeling so frustrated with our culture and the way women treat eachother. It is soooo hard to have another woman as a true friend! I have been "dropped" by all but one of my friends from highschool in the last 6 months, and more and more I am seeing that friendships I have with a lot of other moms are not as "real" as they seem. I feel like most would drop me in a second.
Why is this!!?? Do you think it has to do with women trying to keep themselves and there families "safe", so they don't ever let anyone else in? Do you think that female culture in America is so much about being the hottest, skinniest, richest, most popular, etc; that women can never really get over that, and are just always comparing themselves to eachother and judging others?
I don't know why it is so hard to have a real friend. It feels like I am perpetually stuck in middle school, with the talking smack, judging, catiness, etc. I have a friend from germany and she said she has had tremendous trouble making friends, or even talking about topics other then their children to american women.
I find that some freinds I have will not say anything negative about their kids. Is that wierd, or am I wierd. Sometimes I need to vent about my kids, an d when I talk to these women they will NOT sympathise at all. Is that insecurity?
Do you think this a cultural phenomenon?

[ktbug]

i've found it hard for a long time to be friends with many women, and, ironically, most women i know say they don't get on well with other gals.

i have two or three good women friends, i've known all of them for more than five years, and we share an often-unspoken but very powerful bond which transcends merely our life choices, current geographical homes, or status of parenthood/partnership/employment. i find relationships like that to be exceedingly rare, regardless of gender, and i've kept everyone i've ever found who shares that esoteric, often inexplicable bond. i'm married to one of those people, and of the other people in my life whom i consider true friends for life, three are female and two are male. Anyone else I happen to know is an acquaintance, and I'm kind to my acquaintances, but don't discuss certain things with them and don't get bent out of shape if we lose touch or have a fundamental disagreement.

part of what puts me off about many women is the mistrust. it almost becomes a jungle struggle, a survival contest, where everyone is under suspicion and you have to weed out the bullshitters. those not in the circle of trust are hated upon to the extreme; implied to be unfit people, bad parents, social outcasts, etc. i hate the gossip culture, the labeling and judgement.

see, i have beliefs about things, but i don't hate or judge other people if their beliefs about things happen to differ from mine. but i read mainstream parenting blogs, i listen to the other people in line at the store, i see the way people treat each other on the road, and it just makes me lose my appetite for going out and making new friends. i have a wonderful husband and five good friends. to paraphrase one of those good friends, all i have are good friends - who needs bad friends?

i want to think it isn't gendered, but women who hack me off do so in a different way than men who hack me off. i can write them both off, but the next morning, i'll still be fuming about the cornflake girl - the good ole boy doesn't bug me in the least.

women can be so hateful, you know?
or maybe it's just PEOPLE can be so hateful, but as a woman, when that hate comes from other women, it hurts more. we wish she wasn't like that, because it's a reflection on us.

[ktbug]

double post - database error!
: i broke mdc again

[BookGoddess]

I know what you mean. Sometimes I feel like I'm back in junior high. Many of my female friends exclude and marginalize others. They're part of one clique. Other than one really good female friend with whom I share nearly everything going on in my life and an old co-worker friend, most of my female friends are catty and gossipy. I want to say to them "Good God we're in our 30s. Let's act that way!" They turn so easily people even those that were once friends. They will analyze to death things that are said. They judge people quickly and on things that I think aren't important. Right now I'm really wary of them and I'm putting some space between us. Recently they had a party for one of the gals in the group and they excluded someone else who is also in the group. It was done deliberately. It was obvious to the person who was excluded that there had been an event to which she wasn't invited. Thankfully I wasn't around when the party happened but I have a feeling given how I've been trying to distance myself from them that I would also not have been invited. That's why some of my closest friends right now are guys. I've had male friends all my life. Right now my two of my closest friends are men. It's purely platonic. We talk, laugh, and have fun but there's none of that cliquishness, grudges, and Queen Bee stuff going on.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

The only lasting, meaningful friendships I have had with women have only been with lesbian or bisexual women. My ex is my closest friend still. I don't know what it is - at the risk of stereotyping, maybe lesbians generally see way past traditional gender roles, or maybe they just see them as unimportant, while the heterosexual women I know seem way more judgemental and unable to really bond with other women other than in a rather superficial way; easy to drop the friendship as soon as something "more important" comes up.

I always thought it was ME - I'm horrible at finding gender roles or cultural roles important enough - and other women in my neighborhood probably think I'm way too weird for their comfort zone. Ah well! I'll be your friend

[mata]

I've often wondered the same, and then I wonder if I set my expectations too high-because they're women they should somehow be more caring and above those negative behaviors? I don't know. I just know that I have felt the relationships I've had with females have been lacking and have reached the point where I don't invest much energy there. Maybe that's what other women are feeling too.

[PassionateWriter]

i think most women just dont care. they are sooo about themselves..at least that is what i have encountered. they want you to sympathize and empathize with THEM when things aren't going so great for THEM but when its your turn, you are out of luck for the most part (thats what i find annoying).

i agree w/ ktbug...its really important to live w/ your best friend and have a few close friends....its rare to have more than you can count on one hand anyway.

[lovemybubus]

I used to feel betrayed by other women quite often. I think it's because my mother died when I was very young and the women brought into my life by my dad were mean, jealous, and abusive. Now that I have a daughter of my own it has helped the mother-daughter healing cycle and I have been making a strong effort to focus on the positive side of women. Sometimes it's harder then others but it's true, women have MANY positives. For one, they will do anything for their family and children.

[verde]

Just have to post a differing opinion. I have many women friends, some of them for over 30 years. They are really important to me and and integral part of my sense of well-being. I'm sorry you have had such a hard time maintaining friendships with women. Don't take this as a snarky comment but maybe they weren't that great of friends in the first place?? I think it depends on whether you prefer women or men as friends. I know several women who really don't like other women -- they prefer the company of men as friends. Whatever. I like men and I do have male friends, but I much prefer the friendship of women. For me at least, there are some things men just don't understand.

[punkrockmomma]

I TOTALLY agree w/what everyone is saying!!!! After I had read the original post I talked to my boyfriend about it, and he agrees too. We both feel it's a self esteem thing within the American culture. I mean come on look at who our culture has as role models, and our society's views on women! I just started training to be a Waldorf teacher this week, and it's a class of all women and 1 guy. I felt the cattyness the first day. I had hoped that things would be different with this group, because there's suppose to be a sense of community in Waldorf schools, and I thought these women would be above or at least beyond that b.s.! I've always been very sensitive to this too, because the girls I was in school with from 1st grade all the way through high school were mean, catty, and bullyed me. So I pick up on it right away. Sometimes I question myself and wonder if I'm being to sensitive, but after reading all the posts on this thread I know I'm not, and I should trust my intuition more about people. It's really quite sad that the nuturers in our society don't know how to nuture themselves and their relationships w/other people who aren't family. I know I'm closest and feel the most comfortable with the women in my family. But even then it's only certain women in my family, like my mom, my sister, and my aunt(who just happen to share a lot of same values as I do).

[bigeyes]

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...the-goods.html

I found this article interesting.

I don't know if we condition girls to treat each other this way, or if it's ingrained, but most of my female friends are no BS, non-backstabbing types, and we've all felt weird our whole lives because we didn't understand that behavior.

I felt like the people in the study were trying to say it's genetic. But there is so much stuff on tv, and so much encouragement for this behavior that I kind of think it's learned behavior.

I would like to see the entire study, though, but I'm too cheap to buy the article. I hate when they paraphrase :

[LauraLoo]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

[url]
I don't know if we condition girls to treat each other this way, or if it's ingrained, but most of my female friends are no BS, non-backstabbing types, and we've all felt weird our whole lives because we didn't understand that behavior.

I am just starting to notice this with my dd (she's 4.) My ds and dd are best friends - when no one else is around. But enter another little girl, and dd turns into one of these backstabbers and I've watched her purposely exclude my ds in favor of the other little girls. It's happened twice so far and I'm just amazed that she's doing this. She may have picked up some of this behavior in preschool this past year - I'm not really sure and I'm trying to figure out what to do.

I have some friends that I've known since 6th grade and a couple from college that I am still very, very close with. Since we've known each other so long we can't really keep secrets from each other - we know each other way too well. I can't really say that I've met many women since college that I relate to on this level. I had a couple of friends that had this potential, but I've since moved and the distance has ruined it. I find it very difficult to find many women that I enjoy being around, let alone confide in.

I also want to say that a lot of the mamas that I have met IRL seem to be very competitive over their children.....Little Joey can do this! Little Betty is amazing with this! in a way that makes it a put down for your dc. Not many of the mamas I know would dare talk about 99% of the problem stuff that gets posted in the toddler and childhood forums. You can't have a child that's less, because that would mean that you are less -- that seems to be the thinking.

Why can't we just all get along and love each other?

[naturals]

I am too from another country and have been here since 5 years, and i think this year i have reached a stage of depression due to the lack of friendship. I have tried to be true and good to all around me but just havent able to find any friends here in the usa whom u can lean on. White american women dont wanna do anything long term with me, it just seems like passing the time during the conversation.It feels so fake here i cant believe i am typing this.I am well educated,chatty,honest and speak good english and am average looking so why no friends??No offence to anyone. My husband on the other hand loves it here. He is not the kind of person who needs friends to lean on so, whatever socialization happens he is good with that.
Anaysing it,I think its becz everyone is self sufficient here. Everyone wants to be independent and no one really needs people so they dont have to involve themself with outsiders and there is really no motivation and time as u are so busy trying to do everything on ur own and that in turn exhausts and bitters a person and brings that sense of competitiveness and comparing attitude.Its a viscious cycle.
Life for me here exists on the forum, if it would have not been for mothering , i would have gone insane. Ironically, mothering is made up of women!!!!

[bigeyes]

I know what you mean. I've found a lot more support on MDC than IRL. I've got a handful of good female friends I've collected over the years, but the community here does not at all reflect what I've encountered with large groups of women IRL.

For one thing, here there are rules of conduct. You don't have that IRL. There is no way to gossip or exclude here because even PMs can be scrutinized or forwarded, and conversations are moderated, where you can't prove a whisper.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by naturals

I am too from another country and have been here since 5 years, and i think this year i have reached a stage of depression due to the lack of friendship. I have tried to be true and good to all around me but just havent able to find any friends here in the usa whom u can lean on. White american women dont wanna do anything long term with me, it just seems like passing the time during the conversation.It feels so fake here i cant believe i am typing this.I am well educated,chatty,honest and speak good english and am average looking so why no friends??No offence to anyone. My husband on the other hand loves it here. He is not the kind of person who needs friends to lean on so, whatever socialization happens he is good with that.
Anaysing it,I think its becz everyone is self sufficient here. Everyone wants to be independent and no one really needs people so they dont have to involve themself with outsiders and there is really no motivation and time as u are so busy trying to do everything on ur own and that in turn exhausts and bitters a person and brings that sense of competitiveness and comparing attitude.Its a viscious cycle.
Life for me here exists on the forum, if it would have not been for mothering , i would have gone insane. Ironically, mothering is made up of women!!!!

Have you heard of the "Seattle freeze?" (it has nothing to do with the weather) Seattle is known for polite chit-chat but no real connection. It's so hard to make friends there, but you'd think with so many people complaining about it, that they'd eventually find each other! I am sorry you are struggling and I hope you find some friends to lean on

I can't really comment on the rest of the thread, since I could be part of the problem. True, I never understood the cattiness and backstabbing and I don't do drama. But on the otherhand, I'm an introverted commitment-phobe, so I tend not make deep connections either.

[Neuromancer]

I work in an environment with, and have in my social circles, a lot of lovely, supportive, non-catty women, so I no longer believe they're not out there. I do think that our culture pits women against each other competitively in an extreme way, but I know that women can fight that and be successful.

I used to be an "I don't like/need girl friends. I just get along better with my guy friends" person, and I've had a few major disconnects with female friends, but for me (I'm not saying this is the case for anyone else in this thread), I wasn't connecting with women because of my own insecurities and poor self-esteem. I gradually was able to get over some of those feelings and start building and rebuilding stronger female friendships. For me, the key was listening to my women friends and being sensitive to their emotional needs without giving up my own personality or needs. Also, I try really hard to "not do the drama." I've watched a good friend spend a lot of emotional energy on friend-drama (mostly with catty women), and it's been a lesson to me in the necessity of letting that go (though: easier said than done!).

Now, I do have good female friends, but a few of them are not as "deep" as I've tried to make them. Some of them lack reciprocation (meaning I think I put in way more than I feel like I get out of them), but I don't think that's a "women" versus "men" thing. I feel that in my male friendships, too. I think my relationship with my husband fills in a lot of "gaps" of areas where I might not feel totally fulfilled in my friendships with women or men, so while none of my friends are the "perfect" best friends that show up on tv and movies, I try not to expect that I will find that and I look into myself and into my loving relationship to find those missing pieces.

I also try to remind myself to be open to new friends, even though I feel like I have "enough" friends, because there are people out there who are great and would be good friends if I don't close myself off just because I arbitrarily decide I have enough and don't want to put in the effort to support another friend even at a "lower" level of new friendship. That said, I like women and men who are fairly low-maintenance friends, so I try to be that myself.

i want to think it isn't gendered, but women who hack me off do so in a different way than men who hack me off. i can write them both off, but the next morning, i'll still be fuming about the cornflake girl - the good ole boy doesn't bug me in the least.

I think that it can be gendered, but it isn't inherently and necessarily gendered. I think that our culture has made this a woman's trait, but it doesn't have to be this way. We can fight against it.

women can be so hateful, you know?
or maybe it's just PEOPLE can be so hateful, but as a woman, when that hate comes from other women, it hurts more. we wish she wasn't like that, because it's a reflection on us.

I think this is a really interesting suggestion.

We both feel it's a self esteem thing within the American culture.

Me, too! And perhaps in other cultures I haven't experienced.

[kmeyrick]

I don't know if this is relevant, but when my mother came to America from England, she was surprised by how competitive American women were. It's not that catty English women don't exist, it's just that.....it was more intense here. The women seem to be territorial around the men, and have a strong desire to be seen as "queen bee."

Then again, maybe my mother's eyes were opened to it when she moved here. She was only a teen.

But I have never felt like I had the guts or intelligence to work around catty women. The best I can do is just excuse myself and leave.

[Hippie Mama in MI]

Don't take offense, girls, but IRL I can't stand women. I see my best 3 female friends twice a year at most.

All of my friends have always been guys. Guys can be brainless sometimes, but at least they're loyal.

[whalemilk]

The backstabbing stuff tends to go over my head, which would be nice (I don't know about it thus it doesn't bother me) except that just means that eventually it all comes up and grabs me by surprise. Ugh. Painful, painful subject there.

[barose]

Maybe its the diversity of my area, but I am able to pick through and find some true friends. Some are my age, but most are at least ten years older (I'm 29). I agree with you all though, women are competitive and can be backstabber's, especially in the workplace. I been screwed many times that way.

I cringe if I find out I have a woman as a boss/supervisor. Thankfully, now I work in the architecture/design industry and its a totally different culture than when I was in finance, etc.

In general,
-I have been accused of trying to get with "their men".
-If I don't want to be financially generous, they don't want nothing to do with me.
-Screwed in the workplace by women trying to get ahead. I have never been screwed my men in that way before.