Seeking feedback on developing a re-mineralization protocol for a co-sleeping / night nursing...

[CathMac]

NAK,
I posted this elsewhere earlier and was directed to this forum. I've already gotten a lot of good info but I'm NAK'ing and it's late so I'm simply copying pasting my earlier post for now, with minor revisions.
TIA,
~Cath
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A few days ago I discovered that my 2 yo, DD2, has several cavities. Two on top of the very back bottom teeth (one on either side). And at least two are just between two of her front top teeth on the left, up near the gum line. I haven't had the heart to check the same spot on the right side of those two front teeth but if there are two cavities there they would be smaller since they aren't readily visible.

The ones on the bottom back are a dark beige, lightish brown. The ones in the front are yellowish, light brown with a slight "V" etched into them near the gumline, one "V" more pronounced than the other (2 to 3 ml??).

I haven't taken her to a dentist yet, I am trying to find a BF'ing friendly pediatric dentist in my area. I posted a request for a recommendation on the MDC geographic tribe in may area but haven't had any responses yet. If anyone here is in the Boston, MA area and can think of a dentist please let me know.

Obviously I don't want to wait too long but in the meanwhile I am trying to develop a remineralization protocol based on OTC products that are readily available including Arm & Hammer Enamel Care toothpaste with "liquid calcium" and fluoride. I think this is the "ACP" I've read about but the ingredient on the label appears to be Calcium "M" - something or other (not Calcium Phosphate, with a "P"). I have tried to find "MI Paste" with both ACP and CPP (apparently the CPP increases the amount of time the ACP lingers)

I also found a mouth rinse with Xylitol. One of the first ingredients is Sorbitol but Xylitol seems to be the only other sweetener; it is in the middle of the list of ingredients and it is featured prominently on the label (but not necessarily for it's remineralizing properties). They also have a tooth paste with Xylitol.

I bought a battery operated tooth brush for toddlers. It was about $7.00 but well worth it given how often we'll be brushing and how important it is that we brush thoroughly. I got it at Babies R Us. I think the brand name is "Summers". Does anyone know where I can get some replacement heads? I could buy the kids disposable electric but I like the smaller size of the Summers and it's surprisingly light weight, if a little cheaply made.

I have two big problems. 1) Co-sleeping (which includes nursing her down and usually one middle of the night nursing and 2) the fact that I am a WOHM and am depending on DH and my Mom to brush after every meal and snack and hopefully swab her teeth with the Xylitol rinse (preferabably 5 or 6 times a day). Not to mention that DH will have to curb his instinct to hand her (and her 4 year old sister) something to graze on, whether she is hungry or not.

It took me about an hour to get her to sleep the other night without nursing her down. The past 2 nights I've been unsuccessful but last night I waited about 20 minutes after nursing her down and I was able to pry her lips and teeth open just long enough to quickly swab her teeth without waking her up. However I did have to nurse her once in the middle of the night.

Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that I can get DH and my mom fully on board, can anyone give me an educated guess on how realistic my chances are of getting these 4 to 6 cavities to harden up enough that a pediatric dentist would take a watchful waiting approach? I don't mind paying for frequent check ups as an alternative to drilling and filling which would very likely require general anaesthesia.

How imperative is it that I night wean her or could I avoid that with cutting back on sweet and starchy snacks, allowing juice at meals only, and implementing a really proactive dental regimen (preferably including swabbing her teeth with Xylitol after nursing her down if not after the middle of the night nursing).

Also, does anyone here have any advice on fine tuning the regimen. DH tells me he brushed her teeth 2 times yesterday. I'm taking him at his word that this was after her meal and/or snack. But I'm thinking additional brushing and swabbing would be beneficial. If only because one of the articles I read suggested applying Xylitol up to 6 times a day.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Especially recommendations of finding a BF'ing friendly pediatrician and on how to find some MI paste.

[leila1213]

Also see the sticky on nutrition at the top of the page.

[akbirdy]

You can find MI paste on ebay... also on this site...
http://www.dentist.net/prospec-mipaste-recaldent.asp

I only let DS drink water and breastmilk... no juice, no white carbs. You should read the nutrition sticky, we've tried to implement as much of it as we realistically can.

Another think you can do is get some xylitol mints or if your little one is old enough to chew gum and spit it (my 2yo isn't yet) get some of that and give it to her as treats throughout the day... they sell fruity flavored ones that don't have that minty flavor.

Good luck!

[JaneS]

The best bf'ing friendly dentist is ours in Groton, worth the trip since we are an hour away too. Very well versed in remineralizing and nutritional protocol. Dr. Jean Nordin-Evans
www.grotondentalwellness.com

[CathMac]

quick update

I located the Sonic Care toothrushes and re-charger base I had in the closet. I need to get a hold of some compact heads.

I am seriously considering buying an Ozonator so I can ozonate water to sterilize the toothbrush in between brushings; and so DD2 can rinse with ozonated water.

I got a return call from the Dental School near me. They are conducting a Ozonation study which won't be complete for another year or so. Apparently it isn't approved by the FDA so she doesn't know of any Mass dentists that use this therapy. She says it would be "totally" illegal if they were.

She isn't a pediatric dentist but is willing to see DD2 for a referral to someone for remineralization therapy.

However, she put me through to the receptionist who told me she isn't available until August 11th. And I can't remember how thoroughly I described how close to the gumline the front cavities are. I did describe them to the receptionist and asked her to get back to me if she should be seen sooner.

I know DH is going to grill me on this. So I will probably wind up trying to contact her on Monday. Which I hate to do since she sounded really busy but she listened to everything I said without rushing me and she sounds like someone I can work with.

This could give me 23 days to try and harden up her teeth between now and then.

All I need now is the MI paste and possibly the Ozonator.

I picked up the Xylitol crystal, Spry gum and Spry mints and even a Xylitol nasal spray to spritz her teeth with after nursing, the only ingredient in that I wonder about is Grapefruit Seed Extract. I know it's an anti-fungal. Is it also an anti-bacterial. Is there any reason not to use this?

I'm not thrilled with the choices of toothpaste. They all contain glycerin or baking soda. I settled on the Spry.

I got the Concentrace mineral drops. I put 1/8 of a tsp in a very small cup of juice. Would 1/4 or 1/2 a tsp be better?

Also, I got some lactibacillus supplement. It contains rheuteri and the other recommended healthy bacteria (can't remember which one).

I also picked up some Vit K2; I'm sure it's not as good as the raw milk or grass fed butter but at least it's something. It's a very small capsule. Should I try and give it to DD2 or should I settle for taking it myself.

One more thing, it sounds like the remineralization therapy this dentist has in mind would include fluoride. Which I think I'm ok with as long as it's topical only. Any thoughts on that?

~Cath

[leila1213]

Fluoride will not remineralize the enamel. It will only harden it temporarily while turning the tooth below to mush.

You don't need to brush her teeth with toothpaste. Water is fine. But if you want to use something, use "the secret" from www.saveyourteeth.com. You are right that glycerin is not good. What is wrong with baking soda?

As for vit K2, the synthetic may do some good, but you should really get her on high vitamin cod liver oil (Blue Ice from Green Pastures) as well as Butter Oil (from Green Pastures also - it is expensive though, about $44 a bottle). It is worth it and I would definitely do it for my DD if she showed signs of problems. As long as she doesn't, I will continue concentrating on getting her good fats, meat, bone broths (have you started that yet?), cultured/fermented foods, etc.

Have you been over to the Traditional Foods forum?

[CathMac]

UPDATE - pain when brushing, Decay may be right up against the gums.

UPDATE - pain when brushing. Having taken yet another closer look the decay may be right up against the gums.

Should I look for another dentist if the one I've been talking to can't see her sooner?

~Cath

[CathMac]

Originally Posted by leila1213

Fluoride will not remineralize the enamel. It will only harden it temporarily while turning the tooth below to mush.

Wow, no one's put it quite that bluntly before. How does it hurt the tooth underneath?

That may be a deal breaker with the dentist I spoke to. She seems receptive to remin' but I'm sure fluoride is part of the protocol.

Originally Posted by leila1213

don't need to brush her teeth with toothpaste. Water is fine. But if you want to use something, use "the secret" from www.saveyourteeth.com. You are right that glycerin is not good. What is wrong with baking soda?

Baking Soda is slightly abrasive and supposedly can wear the enamel.

I took a quick look at "The Secret" link but didn't see a toothpaste. Is this a product or a recipe?

Originally Posted by leila1213

As for vit K2, the synthetic may do some good, but you should really get her on high vitamin cod liver oil (Blue Ice from Green Pastures) as well as Butter Oil (from Green Pastures also - it is expensive though, about $44 a bottle). It is worth it and I would definitely do it for my DD if she showed signs of problems. As long as she doesn't, I will continue concentrating on getting her good fats, meat, bone broths (have you started that yet?), cultured/fermented foods, etc.

I forgot about those two products. The bone broth seems a little daunting. How much better is that than the Concentrace mineral drops? I'm guessing the bio-availability is better, any other difference?

Originally Posted by leila1213

Have you been over to the Traditional Foods forum?

No, but i did check the nutrition sticky at the top of the Dental forum.
~Cath

[akbirdy]

Cathmac- what Concentrace mineral drops are you looking at? Could you give me a name so I can look them up? I'm also trying to remineralize my DS's teeth.

[CathMac]

Originally Posted by akbirdy

Cathmac- what Concentrace mineral drops are you looking at? Could you give me a name so I can look them up? I'm also trying to remineralize my DS's teeth.

akbirdy,
I was given the product name "ConcenTrace". I didn't think to check the name of the manufacturer since that's exactly what I found. The manufacturer's name on the bottle is Trace Minerals Research / Liquimins. I found it at a local "The Vitamin Shoppe" brick and mortar store, which also has a website.

The mfr's website is "www.traceminerals.com"

Have you given any thought to the Weston Price (WP) Bone Broth? I rarely cook so just thinking about it seems like work, but I've heard really good things about bone broth and teeth. From everything I've read, ideally you should make the broth from the bones of grass fed beef.

Raw milk and butter from grass fed beef is supposed to be good as well. I suppose organic would be nice but I don't think that's what's important for the purposes of remineralization. If I understand correctly it has something to do with WP's "X factor" which has been identified as Vitamin K2.

I did pick up a Vit K2 supplement but I have posted over on my geographic tribe to see if I can find a grass fed dairy in my area.

I have posted over in my MDC geographic tribe to see if someone over there can point me in the right direction.

Good luck to you. I'm not too optimistic about my chances of avoiding major dental work. Every time I look at her teeth it seems a little worse than I realized. The decay on her front teeth is very close to the gums.

My goal is to try and avoid general anaesthesia. Remineralize as many teeth as possible. And make sure her adult teeth are healthy and strong.

Please keep us posted. It could be helpful to exchange note on what does and doesn't seem to work.

~Cath

[JaneS]

Grass fed dairy coop in Massachusetts
http://www.justdairy.org/

Yes, grassfed very yellow butter/dairy is what you want for the K2. Bone broth will contain all the important minerals for bones and teeth (calcium, phosphorus, magnesium) from any meat bones, but obviously organic is better and grassfed still even better. Trace minerals are not what you need... you chiefly need high amounts of these 3 major minerals plus the fat soluble vitamins (A,D,K) for them to be utilized in the body. Beef marrow is very nutritious as well.

[JaneS]

Bone broth is a cinch in crockpot, don't be intimidated!

[leila1213]

Originally Posted by CathMac

Wow, no one's put it quite that bluntly before. How does it hurt the tooth underneath?

That may be a deal breaker with the dentist I spoke to. She seems receptive to remin' but I'm sure fluoride is part of the protocol.

I can't remember where exactly I heard that it softens the tooth underneath & makes it more susceptible to decay rather than less. I am checking my sources and will get back with you. Have you checked out the Groton dentist?

ETA: Not exactly what I was thinking of, but I did find this quote from a dentist in Hereford, TX, "the town without a toothache" on the curetoothdecay.com site:

I believe that fluorine does in a mild way retard caries, but I also believe that the damage it does if far greater than any good it may appear to accomplish. It even makes the teeth so brittle and crumbly they can be treated only with difficulty, if at all.

(emphasis added) However, now that I am looking at everything, it does appear that the case against fluoride is mostly made based on fluoridated water. Even so, I would not think that it would be that much better to apply it in much higher concentrations to the surface of the teeth--which, after all, are in the mouth--making it easily swallowed.

Originally Posted by CathMac

Baking Soda is slightly abrasive and supposedly can wear the enamel.

I took a quick look at "The Secret" link but didn't see a toothpaste. Is this a product or a recipe?

The Secret is a recipe. It is basically baking soda, sea salt & peroxide (mixed in your hand prior to application at the gumline - not "brushed" onto the teeth), but there are a couple of different things you can substitute.

I also found this on the Cure Tooth Decay site:

Dr. Schultz Tooth And Gum Formula

Here's the recipe for Dr. Schultz Tooth and Gum Formula! A few dropperfuls of it to the water in the water pik otherwise it kind of makes you want to cough.

Tooth & Gum Oil - For receding, rotting gums and teeth, diseased dental bone

Ingredients:

* 10 oz Echinacea Tincture
* ¼ cup Tea tree oil
* 4 oz Bayberry tincture
* 2 oz Oak Gall (or 3x oak bark) tincture
* 2 Tablespoons Cayenne tincture
* 2.5 dropperfuls Peppermint oil
* 2.5 dropperfuls Clove oil

Shake well before use.

Originally Posted by CathMac

I forgot about those two products. The bone broth seems a little daunting. How much better is that than the Concentrace mineral drops? I'm guessing the bio-availability is better, any other difference?

No, but i did check the nutrition sticky at the top of the Dental forum.
~Cath

The bone broth was my first step in transitioning to TF eating (which is still in process). It's really not hard to put a couple ingredients in a pot and let it simmer all night.

From what I understand, the CLO/BO combination was the most potent supplement/treatment that Price utilized/witnessed.

Please come over to the TF forum for more info & support on your journey!

[akbirdy]

Can you just buy the bones to boil?? I have kind of avoided this also, but would be interested to try. We do the high vit cod liver oil and x-factor butter oil, raw hard cheese, sprouted grains and raw BREAST MILK! I've been avoiding all white carbs for DS and sugars... he is a very picky eater and at times it's been hard to try and "mix it up".

I think you can buy Dr. Schultz Tooth And Gum Formula online if you don't have all those oils or don't want to buy them all separately...

[CathMac]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Grass fed dairy coop in Massachusetts
http://www.justdairy.org/ ...

JaneS,
I checked out their website. Do they have anything besides the milk? Also, raw milk makes me a little nervous. But I'm guessing it would be hard to find pasteurized grass fed milk. I'm also guessing pasteurization kills some of the substances that promote mineralization.
~Cath

[CathMac]

Originally Posted by leila1213

Have you checked out the Groton dentist? ...

leila,
Not yet. But I think I'll call on Monday. It would be about a 1 1/4 hour drive around Boston for us. But it's probably worth the peace of mind to know that if they recommend something invasive that it's really necessary.
~Cath

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by CathMac

JaneS,
I checked out their website. Do they have anything besides the milk? Also, raw milk makes me a little nervous. But I'm guessing it would be hard to find pasteurized grass fed milk. I'm also guessing pasteurization kills some of the substances that promote mineralization.
~Cath

Yes the nutrients in raw milk are better absorbed and higher in grass fed... usually organic factory farmed pasteurized milk cows still eat a high amount of grains which even though they graze on grass to it is still not enough to achieve proper nutrient levels of A & D and fatty acids. Raw milk is a commitment requiring understanding why it's different and health benefits. Also you must know your source and their practices. Raw milk from cow properly fed and cared for do not contain pathogens. Indeed from Mark McAfee's studies (Organic Pastures in CA) pathogens introduced into raw milk are killed off by the good bacteria and immunoglobulins!

Basically whatever health benefits apply to breastmilk, apply to raw milk.... pasteurized milk is like feeding formula to your kids: damaged by heat processing and contains chemical vitamins amongst other problems.

Read "The Untold Story of Milk" by Ron Schmid... a lot of which is excerpted in several articles here:
http://www.drrons.com/drrons-books-articles.htm

and also www.realmilk.org

Just Dairy has eggs, I thought they had all the rest of the stuff too? They changed a bit since I left them, email Cyndy Gray and ask.

I also think there is another group which is an offshoot of mine nearer to you. I pick up in Wrentham but I now that I think about it, there may be one near Quincy. I have emailed my co-op leader, will get back to you. We get grass fed and organic beef, chicken, pork, hot dogs, bacon, bones, raw butter, raw cheese, yogurt, kefir, raw milk, raw cheese, whey, ice cream etc. from an Amish family farm in PA. They ship to Boston every week anyways (have another business and just put the products on the refrig. truck). It's easier for me even though I'm not exactly buying local. But through my WAPF leader I often get meats and bones. I have gone to the Foxboro dairy many times, they have raw MA cheese too but no butter. Eggs sometimes.

[CathMac]

JaneS,
I have heard about a Middleboro grass fed dairy, Plato's, that goes to the Plymouth Market on Thursdays. I'm going to look into that.
~Cath

[CathMac]

JaneS & leila1213,
Well I called Groton Dental Wellness and I would have to say that based upon my very brief conversation with the receptionist that I am pretty underwhelmed with them and more overwhelmed with my situation than I was before.

I described DD's cavities and asked if they could see her. She said the earliest appointment is in September. She was matter of fact to the point of sounding almost cheerful, almost like she was trying to preempt any further questions. I paused for awhile knowing that she knew it shouldn't wait that long. But I asked the rhetorical question: "can it wait that long?". She simply said "no", again very matter of factly. I asked if there was any chance they could see her sooner. Once again the bare bones almost cheerful answer was yes.

There was nothing in her demeanor that encouraged me to ask if I should or could talk with one of the dentists. Or even to ask for a recommendation to another practice.

My guess is that they are too successful to meet demand for their services.

Yay for them. But they should teach their receptionist some basic empathy skills.

What bothers me the most is that she would have scheduled the appointment for September knowing that it probably shouldn't wait that long.

~Cath

[leila1213]

That is very frustrating. I'm so sorry. Maybe JaneS has more ideas.

ETA: I would proceed with the Cure Tooth Decay protocol until you can find a dentist.

ETA2: I think I would probably still go for the appt if they scheduled you in a reasonable time frame, regardless of the receptionist.