I thought this was a bit exagerated...I guess not! - Page 2

[LazureFairie]

My hospital births were okay too---(the last one was born at home though)
I attribute my better than the average experience to a couple of factors, for one I gave birth in a hospital with a low c-sec rate and corresponding low-interventions. I never had an IV, no epidurals, no preps and I also requested that no epis were done and my wishes were honored.
Also I always went to the hospital late in my labors by choice--there was never time to do all that stuff....this is really important. Most of the time the women who get all the inventions go to the hospital too early in their labors!!!!
Anyway, I just don't listen to the horror stories I hear. If anyone is interested I will tell them how wonderful my homebirth was and that I'd do it again.

[georgia]

Sad

BRG wrote: "I would just ask that sometimes you hold your judgementalism in check a bit."

BRG, if this was addressed to me, I feel disappointed that you have felt judged by me. I regret that you felt judged. Perhaps you could have PM'ed me for clarification? It is not my experience on these boards (and I've been here since Feb. of 2000 in one form or another!), that for the most part, we assume good intent. It was not my intent to judge YOU personally, or women who DO have fear of their bodies. I was merely labeling it as sad. On this board, we often discuss issues such as this.

What I wrote was,"the fear and distrust of her body and ability are so ingrained." I wrote that I was sad about what they had missed. I stand by this statement. Culturally, it's prevalent to be terrified of birth and our bodies, and in my opinion, this is sad. It is also sad when we have disappointment in our birthing experience. So many of us who DO choose homebirth have firsthand experience in dealing with grief, sadness, anger and loss stemming from previous birth experiences. I guess I'm just blind to my judgemental tone when I speak of sadness and birth. We might see this differently. I respect your opinion. I believe the system in which most women labor and birth is inherently flawed, and we are set up to "fail." To use your word, the system is atrocious. Perfect word.

You then wrote,"It's wonderful you have low risk pregnancies that allow you freedom in birthing, but not everyone has that."

This is an assumption that we homebirthers are all medically stamped "low risk." In my personal experience, this isn't true.

Much peace to you on your journey.

Amy

[TrishWSU]

I kind of had to chuckle when I read Phoebe's post that said "the nurses aren't allowed to 'deliver' the babies." My mom was the head nurse at a small (20 bed) hospital. Because she worked the night shift, there wasn't always a doctor on duty every night, just on-call. So, not very suprising, most of the docs left instructions not to be called until a mother was ready to push. Several times, the docs would take to long to get there, so my mom and the other nurses 'delivered' (my mom says she just caught, the mother did all the work ) many babies, including twins, one vertex one breech, in the parents car in the parking lot. But of course it was always the docs name that went on the birth certificate. I guess Phoebe's friend's sister didn't have nurses who were more willing to bend some rules. I can't imagine being TOLD not to push just b/c there was no doc. I'd have said, 'Fine, I have two hands to catch with."

My mom will be there to catch my next one if I live somewhere without midwifes (I'm in the military, so I never know where I'll be.)

[KT Scribbler]

Best wishes, Phoebe!
I just wanted to say that I had my 1st at home as well (12 (!) yrs ago), and you sound a lot like I did. (I was so confident & dogmatic that I feared fate would punish me w/ complications or something --but instead I had a glorious fabulous wonderful experience.)
5 years later my 2nd (dh's 1st) was born at home as well. That time my fear how could I be so lucky as to have TWO wonderful fabulous birth experiences? --But I did.
That was 7 (!) yrs ago, and I'm expecting my 3rd baby any day now. I must say that people's reactions are a lot different when you're able to say "I'm having my baby at home like I did with my other 2" (vs. being a 1st time mom who presumably doesn't know what she's getting into.)
I obviously don't know much about giving birth in a hospital (though I've certainly heard my share of other women's horror stories) but I know enough not to go there with a normal, uncomplicated pregnancy.

--Katie

[Greaseball]

I think mothers, not doctors, are the true experts and know if they are "high risk" or not. Many "high risk" mothers realize the safest place for them is at home.

Even if a woman is a true high risk case and needs to be in a hospital, there is no excure for treating her poorly. That institution is her employee! Those doctors need to be exactly where she wants them - if they are not right where they need to be at the right time, they are LATE FOR WORK. What happens to normal people when they are late for work? They are written up, sometimes even fired. What happens when doctors are late for work? Sometimes, people die.

In other countries, those with the lowest infant and maternal mortality rates, doctors (actually, it's mostly midwives) stay in the hospital the whole time the woman is there. They are not playing golf or eating dinner at home. They have a little more humility, I guess, since they don't seem to mind waiting around as much.

Doctors and hospitals need to realize they are being paid to care for women. They should not call the shots. They do not deserve to be at the top - they are at the bottom. They are, again, employees. Is anyone here "the boss" at work? What would you do if your employees forced you to take drugs, made slices on your body, and didn't come in to work until they felt like it?

[coriy]

The latest issue of Mothering came today and Peggy's editorial deals with these very issues.
The last paragraph sums up this topic nicely for me...
She says something to the effect that there will be many times in life when we won't be able to protect our children, but birth is not one of them - that's what this important rite of passage is all about.
IMO, too much emphasis is placed on the mother's experience, as though it's her 'big day', like a wedding. I know this may sound odd to some, but I think this attitude allows some important questions to go unasked.
Who is it that's being born?
What are the expectations of birth for our species?
Can a 'medical' birth meet them?
Should technological childbirth be the norm in healthy mothers?

There's ample evidence showing that giving birth naturally releases a whole host of hormones that help prepare us for our role as mothers.

Are we prepared to forfeit this for any 'easier' birth?
If so, what are the long-term consequences?

I could go on & on!
This topic is very dear to me.
(For more of my views on this see: http://mothering.com/9-0-0/html/9-9-0/mother-love.shtml )

Best to all,

[Britishmum]

I had two hospital births. The first would have been full of the interventions if I'd allowed it. It was far from perfect, but a great learning experience for me.

My second, at a different hospital, with a midwife not an ob, was wonderful. Absolutely no intervention. I was in water through the entire labour, until I decided that I wanted to get out and push. Twenty minutes later, my baby was born. It was beautiful, and I was not surrounded by technology and drugs. Nor was I surrounded by medical staff, just my midwife, doula, and husband with me. (Plus a sweet, young nurse on hand.) It was peaceful and beautiful.

Not all hospital births are as you all describe, although I know that many are. It is possible to have a hospital birth that is as non-medical as a homebirth if that's what you want. But that's not what many women want, which may be a sad or a foolish thing. But who am I to judge? Giving birth without medication, when medication is an option, is not easy. Unfortunately most women don't understand the implications of an interventionist style birth. But many women do, and many women give birth in hospitals without the sorts of scenarios that are being described here.

If you want a natural birth, and you select the right hospital and right care team, you can do it. But this is not what most women want, for whatever reason. That's why there are all these horror stories.

[Greaseball]

I used to think the mother should call the shots at a birth. Now I know that was wrong. It should be left up to the true expert - the baby!

But second in line is certainly going to be me.

[BRG]

I agree the hospital should still treat you well, but that has nothing to do with being afraid of pregnancy and birth. Having preterm labor and birth is scary. bedrest and medications are scary. Knowing your child is going to the NICU is scary. No matter how prepared you are for it, it is still scary and it has nothing to do with how the hospital treats you.

As I said, hospitals should treat you well, but feeling sorry for those who can't "trust their body" enough (for good reason) to homebirth is just patronizing.

[cottonwood]

BRG, you are absolutely right. However, I think you are reading something into Succotash's words that she did not mean to convey.

I assumed she meant (and I think she implies in her clarification)that 1) she was talking about feeling sad that women feel fear for no good reason and/or 2) that she feels badly that anyone should literally have to feel afraid about birth, i.e., for good reason.

Regardless of whether a person is deluded or her feelings are valid, I can still feel badly for her if she is in a situation that is causing her pain or difficulty. That's not patronizing, at least as I define it, that is compassion.

[cottonwood]

"It is possible to have a hospital birth that is as non-medical as a homebirth if that's what you want."

Certainly it's possible, but that does not make it a sure thing, right? First, depending on the area one lives in and type of insurance, she might not have a hell of a lot of choice in care providers. Second, I have heard SO many stories written by women who consider themselves strong and outspoken, who believe they planned to the best of their ability, who got recommendations and did interviews and research and wrote the birth plan and got the doula and took natural childbirth classes and, and, and... and they were still blindsided by the system and ended up with traumatic, mis-managed births. It doesn't matter how much you prepare, when you bring into the equation other human beings plus an institution with rules and protocol, there are too many variables to assume that everything will go the way it should.

[BRG]

an acquaintance was here the other day, and he mentioned how much he'd love to have little ones around again. the only thing was his wife was terrified of "having" to be pregnant and give birth---and didn't i understand just how she felt??? i looked at him, feeling such sadness in my heart for him and his wife----how much they've missed out on.....i told him i love being pregnant and giving birth at home (in the water, gasp!) was perhaps the highlight of my life thus far. he asked if i would talk to his wife, but do you get the idea it wouldn' help a thing? the fear and distrust of her body and ability are so ingrained.

You talk about an aquaintance that you don't know the details of her experience, and you felt "such sadness in your heart for (them)". Let me say, people who have had pregnancy complications don't want your pity. You don't even consider that perhaps she had HELLP, or a seizure from PIH, or went into labor at 22 weeks. Maybe she has kidney problems or is a Type I diabetic and pregnancy is harder on her body than it is for a normal woman. Perhaps she had Hyperemesis and was in the hospital a lot for rehydration because she was unable to hold anything down for months.

Those women do mourn the loss of a normal pregnancy, but they don't want to be looked at like they are freaks to be pitied because they couldn't have a homebirth.

[AmyB]

I have had to learn to bite my tounge whenever someone starts telling her birth story.

The story always seems to go the same way-- The *had* to induce, then it wasn't working so they *had* to do a C-section.
It just makes me furious to hear the same awful story again and again. The thing that infuriates me more is to hear a woman tell this story and then praise the doctors for saving the day.

When I tell my own birth story it is a story about sucessfully and unsuccessfully trying to fend off incompetent medical interventions (my mom who sat by my side for two days of labor was out in the hall crying when my baby was born because nobody would tell her what was happening to us). Suprisingly, a lot of people have criticized me for being upset. they say stuff like, "The only thing that matters is a healthy baby" and "Those are busy medical professionals who don't have time to worry about your feelings or making you comfortable".

So, conventional wisdom is that hospital birth is supposed to be awful because the fact that the staff can't/won't take care of you just proves that they are doing their job.

GRRRR.

--AmyB

[2much2luv]

I feel sorry for women who don't have to faith in their bodies to give birth independently of the medical establishment. That doesn't mean I don't like them or that I look down upon them. Heck, I also feel sorry for people that don't have enough food to eat. I feel sorry for alot of people in the world. How is that a bad thing? I thought empathy was a good thing...

[Potty Diva]

This is a little OT, but wanted to share the mentality of doctors.

This was written in an article about women and obstetricians. I think it was entitled, "Why women need an obstetrician".

I was leafing through it and cought this:

"Women need to have an abstetrician before becoming pregnant and during to learn of the NECESSARY pain medication they'll need, or to discuss some form of natural birth."

Yes, drugs and OB's are necessary, and anything other than a medicated birth is seem as bizarre.

UGH!

I had a decent birthing center birth with a midwife, will shoot for a homebirth with our next though- always room for improvement

[Greaseball]

"It is possible to have a hospital birth that is as non-medical as a homebirth if that's what you want."

I think many doctors consider their hospital to do "natural birth" without really seeing what natural birth is. They think episiotomies are natural, and that pitocin is just another form of (natural) oxytocin.

I was told that my hospital would be "like a home birth." Someone is obviously very confused. A lot of people think that the move toward labor/delivery rooms that look all homey with the curtains and pictures and stereos means the hospital has moved toward a more natural way to deliver babies, but what's the point if they just do all the same things to you that they do in the cold sterile delivery rooms?

I delivered in a very beautiful, large room which had a jacuzzi, TV and VCR, CD player and curtains, but still, my feet were in stirrups. Movie rentals and a steak dinner for dh were covered by insurance, but I had the EFM on (which hurt, BTW) half the time I was there. They do try to make some things better but still leave the stuff we can all do without.

That's great that some of us have had hospital births that were truly non-interventive. But, did you arrive at near-complete dilation or progress very quickly? I have a feeling if you were the type to have a 48-hour labor they would not let you go without doing something to you.

[Potty Diva]

Originally posted by Greaseball
But, did you arrive at near-complete dilation or progress very quickly? I have a feeling if you were the type to have a 48-hour labor they would not let you go without doing something to you.

I was induced and my labor was 7.5 hours.

If I would have went into labor naturally I would not have gone in until the very last minute.

[georgia]

BRG, when you write: "Those women do mourn the loss of a normal pregnancy, but they don't want to be looked at like they are freaks to be pitied because they couldn't have a homebirth" I feel very disappointed that you have read my words to say I feel that YOU or anyone else is a FREAK. I'm confused as to why you are taking such an aggressive stance on the homebirth forum. I don't see where I wrote that this woman wanted a homebirth???? She didn't want to be pregnant or give birth ever again. This is what I am saying I feel sadness about---because birth CAN be wonderful. Is it always, no. Can it be when left alone? Yes. I am not talking about the small percentage of women/babies who need medical intervention. It is for these women and babies I am grateful such medical care exists. Is that patronizing?

If you read PITY, than that's your right and your business. I get the idea that your pregnancy and birth were not what you expected, and are certainly issues that seem to be causing you great pain. I hope you are finding the support that will help you meet your needs.

Amy

[Britishmum]

quote:
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"It is possible to have a hospital birth that is as non-medical as a homebirth if that's what you want."
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Now, I didnt say it's easy - I said it's possible. And I also said that you have to pick your caregiver very carefully. That's what I did, and that's how I managed to have a wonderful natural birth in a hospital, second time around. First time, I thought I'd done my homework, but it wasn't enough.

Even so, personally, I wouldnt' choose a homebirth if I could go back and do it again. I don't need anyone to feel sorry for me though.