How do I get DH to start economizing?

[BabyA'sMom]

I've tried to write this post several times and get mired up in back story and circumstances and end up giving up.

Let's just say I married into DH's pre-existing financial quagmire. He is so fatalistic about it he won't try to economize. At the moment we keep our finances separate. I pay everything having to do with baby, put food on the table, provide for disposable household stuff, maintain my own needs (car insurance, my own business overhead, gasoline) maintain elderly dog's vet, medicine and prescription food bills and pay for extras that come up ( see below)

He pays for his house and everything associated with it. He does incur extra expense in payroll deductions for my and baby's health insurance. He also pays most of the time when we go out to dinner. Otherwise, he hasn't taken on any extra expense since getting married. Heck, I even paid for the wedding and wedding rings!

When I was on maternity leave , I used my savings for basics, but then gave him everything I made doing freelance work here and there. Then , when I needed regular work and couldn't find it, I had no cushion, so I couldn't give him money and am now catching up.

I added up just part of his debt load and I have no idea how he does it. He brings in $7K/month from his primary job and maybe $1K/month on side jobs. JUst the mortgage and paying off a tax lien is $5800/month. Utilities can be up to $150-$300/month water (watering lawn) and up to $500 in electricity (electric is so high because he has a computer data center running 24/7 in the house) He pays for a gardener --$$$ ? DSL/phone is $75, Cable is $120. I know he has at least one credit card maxxed out - last I could find he pays $300 for that. His parents lent him money and are calling in the loan , which is $300/month for I am sure forever.

Then I see how wasteful he can be , but he won't even try to economize. He does the most expensive option for commuting- drives 25miles to the train stop closest to work and then pays $6 for parking. That's $17 per day for gas, parking and subway fare. He has to eat out everyday. He shrugs and says "It's only a $10 lunch, no big deal" That's $50/week. With commuting, he spends probably $600/month for commute and lunch alone!!! Gas outside of commute is $80/tank for his vehicle- maybe $200/month?

With the cost of food going up, I try to cut corners. I bought chicken thighs on sale, and he commented that he only likes organic boneless chicken breasts (If I "cheat" and get breasts on sale, he'll call out "hormones!" if the breasts are big.) He likes certain brands of things, so if I buy another brand of bagel , he mopes about it! Same with cheese , milk, bread, cereal- even breakfast meat. Salad needs a certain type of salad dressing, plus crumbled aged cheese, etc. To him, the only ice cream worth eating is Ben and Jerry's Forget about getting canned or frozen veggies.

So I quit buying the stuff I felt was extravagant and focused on economizing. Then he declares "there's no food" and wants to go out to dinner. Then he ends up paying and I worry. So I pay the extra in food because it's cheaper than eating out and I want to help lighten the load on him. Yet, I am the one paying for his pickiness.

I worry about utilities and spend the day with the thermostat at 80 feeling guilty about running the AC.

When he wants/needs something, I try to get it for him so he doesn't overspend. He wanted a nice digital camera for the baby. I researched it and got it at 30% off and gave it to him for his b-day. For fathers day, I bought him shirts that were on sale. We needed a new bed and he wanted Chattam and wells ($10K) I found one used for $400 and he said absolutely not. I ended up getting an overstock one for $1300 ($12K bed retail). I paid for it, because he kept threatening to go out and do a 2 years same as cash financing. Same with the TV. Ours died , he wanted a $5K LCD high def one. I told him no, don't finance a freaking TV! I found a used one still under warranty for $800. He wanted a treadmill with the heart monitor and it has to be a good one because he's tall. $2K- I found an overstock for $750.

I've done all this over the past two years without accumulating any debt of my own. I have borrowed against my tax refund, but that's it.

So I know if my husband would come clean about his financial situation , I could help. I could make a budget and we could improve matters. Once the housing market improves, we can sell this mammoth house and move to a smaller cheaper place closer to work.

Problem is , he won't disclose. "I don't want to pull you down" he says. Well, thanks to his "needs", I haven't been able to save for retirement for two years.

What I think is that he doesn't want to change his habits and economize at all. I think he is used to robbing Peter to pay Paul and has no desire to change his ways. Occasionally, he'll moan about the fact he doesn't get any help with all the bills. He agrees I should keep doing PT work until I can afford an au pair. Then it will be 6 months before I can build up a base for more work and start paying some of the bills.

Even then, though, I'm not sure I'm willing to contribute without getting full disclosure about his finances and doing a budget.

Anyone else struggle with this? How did you manage it?

[Poddi]

May I ask how much money he brings home? And did he grow up in a wealthy family?

[Tradd]

I have to say that I don't really get your situation. It's as if you're roommates, splitting the expenses in a certain way. Was this agreed upon before you were married or was this a surprise after the wedding? Did you know about your husband's financial habits, expensive tastes, while you were dating?

I'm so sorry you're going through this. There are some more deep-seated issues than just finances here, particularly if he's keeping the extent of his financial situation from you. I'd have to say that marriage counseling would be a very good idea, from the little you've told us.

[kewb]

My situation is not exactly like yours but I do live with a spender. It's like the money burns and he has to spend it whether we have it or not. The reality is there is nothing you can do to change his habits. He has to want to do it.

I economize all I can, make my arguements for why we need to do something a certain way and do what I need to do. We have been maried 15 years now and he has come around to some things. What helped us was cutting up the plastic 8 years ago. If we do not have the cash you can't get it. This has forced him to prioritize a bit.

[violet]

I agree with pp that you can't change him. He is his own person and pretty entrenched in his habits, expectations, and denial. It sounds like you have a pretty good perspective on the situation already, so him giving you the whole picture of his finances would be a step in the right direction, but not all that helpful if he's so resistent to change.

You mention you have a child together. I'm hoping he's a loving attentive father? I don't want to sound manipulative, but thinking about the child's future might be the thing to get him out of his rather selfish/immediate gratification spending habits.

What I would do - don't mention money or talk about financial worries for a bit. Back off. Then start including conversations about your goals for your future together and your child. 'I've been thinking about starting a college fund. I know right now might not be the best financial picture for us, but I think we both need to make this a priority at some point" dropping hints. Then "I was looking into that college fund idea and experts really recommend we have our own retirement on track before starting that. It would stink to send her to college and then have to come live with her when she has a job adn we are old and in the poor house"

My dh is a spender. But we entered marriage with most of the same goals - earlier retirement, getting our kids off to a good start without saddling them with edu. debt, etc. So when he gets too spendy I don't question his purchasing, but rather if we are both sticking to our goals. For him, that is sometimes enough. For your dh, you may need some counseling (couples and financial) to get you to the point where you can claim to have common financial goals and then to make a plan to reach those goals. But first he has to want something in the future more than the thing he wants in the moment. That might be your child's future, or a retirement, .... it might be too scary for him to even think about the future because he knows he's in a pickle now. But being hopeful about working toward something good is the only way I know of to change current habits.

[Free Thinker]

Our marriage is not set up this way, and neither is our spending. I don't really understand being married and not knowing each other's finances??? I do see having seprate accounts (we do) and certain spouse paying certain bills and the other spouse the other bills, but not knowing???? Sounds like there is a big miscommunication/disconnect going on, and I"d guess it's not just money. How about treating your situation like a business? Would this work? Set a time for 'financial meeting" and lay it all out on the table. Make charts of debts, upcoming expenses (new roof for house, tires, medical, anything you see needing in the upcoming month), current incomes and expenses, ect. Break your expenses into categories (say housing- heating/AC, rent, insurance, ect.; transportation-car, insurance, upkeep, subway; clothing/shoes; food- grocery bill and also eating out; ect.) and make a pie chart! Maybe this would help him see what is really going on. I really don't see any other options, hoping this will help you to show him what is really going on w/ your expenses.

[rainbowmoon]

you are married and it's his house? what happens if one of you dies? speaking from experience get your name on the house and any other assets and combine at least some of your finances and make a will if you don't have one! (probate sucks!!!)

I'd also be tempted to let him do the shopping for a month or two. :

[traceface]

Yes, if you have separate finances then it's not right that all his $$ goes to pay for *his* house (he's investing his money) while your money is burned feeding everybody and running the household for them. The idea of separate finances is that you are protected in case anything happens

[captivatedlife]

I'd have to say the opposite of rainbow moon - STAY AWAY FROM HIS FINANCES.

Well, that's after you have a nice sit down. Print off all the money you're spending, all your bills, etc, in an excel spreadsheet. Sit down and talk to him about filling it in. Explain about how the debt needs to be paid off and you're going to have to cut corners. Share password to the online portion of the bank - he can see what you're spending, you can see what he's spending. Talk about setting up a discretionary fund for each of you (out of your own money, of course) that you can do anything with.

And if that doesn't work - do not get your name on anything of his. Move out, find a place of your own and find a lawyer. Ok. That sounds drastic, but if you LET him run YOU into debt - you'll be paying for it for a LONG time (my mom is a perfect example of this. please, please, please be careful). And pull out your credit report. Make sure that nothing has been placed on it that shouldn't be there. If, after you do that, there's nothing, you can chalk it up to silly captivatedlife - see, I knew I could trust dh, and go on your merry way.

Good luck.

[aeramom]

I agree with the prior poster about staying away from involving yourself in the finances by getting on loans, financing anything together etc., if possible.
However, not sure where you live, but if you are in a community property state like mine, any debt he incurs during the marriage is yours too, so there is little you can do to avoid that.

At any rate, I also most definitely would want to know more about the financial situation -- I know he is concerned about "pulling you down", but really he is already doing that because you aren't able to use your $ effectively (yours/his/both). If he won't come clean, you may have to put your own money aside for what you think is a priority (retirement, college savings, etc.) and try to economize on the rest, though that doesn't seem the best option.

I don't have too many suggestions other than to insist he comes clean. He may not be ready to economize or change things, and that is why he won't talk about it? Does he feel ashamed, etc? It is really hard to say without knowing him, but maybe if you can figure out the underlying reason why he won't share, and then address that reason, maybe he'll be able to do so.

You could try couponing for the brand name items he likes (maybe buy coupons for the brand names off ebay or from a clipper service). while this might help, I really do think you need to know more about the finances and develop a plan together to make a good plan for the future.

[rainbowmoon]

his finances are going to affect her and their child's future though. ignoring it and disconnecting herself further isn't going to make it better. well unless she does divorce him over it.

Originally Posted by captivatedlife

I'd have to say the opposite of rainbow moon - STAY AWAY FROM HIS FINANCES.

Well, that's after you have a nice sit down. Print off all the money you're spending, all your bills, etc, in an excel spreadsheet. Sit down and talk to him about filling it in. Explain about how the debt needs to be paid off and you're going to have to cut corners. Share password to the online portion of the bank - he can see what you're spending, you can see what he's spending. Talk about setting up a discretionary fund for each of you (out of your own money, of course) that you can do anything with.

And if that doesn't work - do not get your name on anything of his. Move out, find a place of your own and find a lawyer. Ok. That sounds drastic, but if you LET him run YOU into debt - you'll be paying for it for a LONG time (my mom is a perfect example of this. please, please, please be careful). And pull out your credit report. Make sure that nothing has been placed on it that shouldn't be there. If, after you do that, there's nothing, you can chalk it up to silly captivatedlife - see, I knew I could trust dh, and go on your merry way.

Good luck.

[Belleweather]

Yeah, the problem is that even if everything is in his name, because they're married her finances and the baby's future are going to be affected. Especially if you're in a community property state -- Community property isn't just assets, it's debts too.

I hate to sound like Dear Abby, but you guys need a professional referee. He can't continue to have his outflow exceed his income indefinately, and you're going to be in the crosshairs when it catches up with him. You're going to need to come to an understanding about finances and you're going to need someone to help you fight fair to do it. Find a good relationship counselor, stat.

[captivatedlife]

Crap! I forgot about community property. I would ask a lawyer what you should do.

Once again, good luck.

[BabyA'sMom]

Here's some back story. NO, DH is not from a wealthy family, but he is an only child of indulgent parents. We knew each other socially for years before dating, but I had no idea about his financial issues. I knew he had a big house way far away (30 miles).

When we got engaged the deal was that he sells the house and we buy a cheaper place closer to work and friends. In May 2006, I told him to sell right away as-is.. Instead, he got his parents to lend him $50K for improvements so he could get a big profit. Of course, the market crashed, and by the time the house got on the market, no one even came to look at the place.

I told him we'd be in for a long engagement, because I had no intention of living that far out in a big house I didn't even like 30 miles away from work and friends. I told him I wouldn't marry into a pre-existing mortgage.

Then I found out I was pregnant.

I didn't run off and marry him. Actually, it made me more cautious. I knew my earnings would be lower for a few years when I had the baby so I needed to know what his financial situation was. I went online and looked up his name and address and found tax liens on his property.

The tax liens are from a crash in the stock market. He exercised stock options from work to pay the down payment on the house. He was instructed to wait 6 months to exercise more stock options for taxes. In six months, the market crashed, the company went bankrupt and the stock was worth nothing. He ended up owing over twice the amount in taxes than he got for the down payment. We're talking $250K in tax liens.

Yes, he got bad advice, but his story is a common one, evidently. Luckily, Ca. is a homestead state, so the IRS can't seize his house.

I broke up with him the first 14 weeks of my pregnancy. We got couples therapy and I thought long and hard before marrying him. So at least I knew going in.

Bottom line is that I love him and wanted my baby to have a father. And he has been a really great dad and very supportive of me. Despite his financial mess, he encouraged me to stay home and focus on the baby. Even though I have earning potential, he has always told me my first and only real job is to care for the baby.

Keeping finances separate is a really good idea. All his pre-existing debt is his. But, the state and IRS watch his earnings to decide if his wages will be attached. A few months into marriage the state attached his wages. If we had combined finances, they would've taken more. We file taxes separately, don't have any joint accounts. My name is on no bills.

There really isn't any incentive for him to save, because any and all assets can be seized by the IRS. As long as his debt to income ratio is high, they'll leave him alone.

But I do know that debts incurred during marriage are jointly owed. That's why I bend over backwards to get good deals on things I would consider luxury items, so he doesn't rack up any more debt.

We've talked about using my excellent credit rating to get a second mortgage to pay the taxes, but it's too risky. I would have to pay it on my own and my business isn't up to speed yet. Same with an Offer in Compromise with the IRS. That takes up to two years to get approved, but they can take the money for two years and reject the offer and then attach for as much as they can get. Until I can earn enough to get an au pair will I have the time to increase my business. Even then he doesn't want me to work full time until the baby is preschool age and I agree.

So yes, it's a mess and very frustrating. DH is cavalier about finances because he has no incentive to save. Until this house sells or I can afford a second mortgage, we live under the shadow of the IRS possibly attaching his wages or seizing assets. Being poor is to his advantage right now.

Does it make sense now? Is there something I can do ?

[gentlemango]

That's a roller coaster of a story.

Can he take on more of the household expenses, like food? What if you made a deal with him that he should take on more of the debt load and living expenses, so that his wages won't be garnished, & you will invest more into retirement and college savings, on behalf of both of you?

With that kind of debt load, surely he wouldn't be approved for financing fancy toys? Or is his credit score okay?

Fundamentally you are probably going to need to sit down and have a serious talk about disclosure and tackling the problem together.

[velochic]

Bottom line is that it is money he owes the government. He can't put it off forever. He just needs to suck it up and be responsible for his debt. Bad advice or not, he is the one that took the chance and now he is avoiding the consequences. He needs to be adult about it and start saving to pay off that gov't debt. Only then can he move on to deal with real-life financial matters. He sound really young, is he?

This whole situation seems completely screwed up. Aren't his wages garnished? Something sounds fishy to me.

[SleeplessMommy]

Originally Posted by BabyA'sMom

The tax liens are from a crash in the stock market. He exercised stock options from work to pay the down payment on the house. He was instructed to wait 6 months to exercise more stock options for taxes. In six months, the market crashed, the company went bankrupt and the stock was worth nothing. He ended up owing over twice the amount in taxes than he got for the down payment. We're talking $250K in tax liens.

As a SAHM, you have time on your hands. I would demand full financial disclosure, copies of the stock sales/purchases, copies of all the credit card statements, copies of back tax filing, etc. Get all the documents you need, then find a good CPA or tax attorney. It is possible that there has been a mistake in a past filing - you can submit a revised tax filing and get any credit applied to what is owed.

Your goal is to make a plan to did out of debt by the time dd is in college. A good financial adviser can suggest the pros/cons of bankruptcy vs. selling house (short sale?) vs. monthly payments for the next 20 years.

Yes, your husband has an incentive to spend money like there is no tomorrow. But that does not mean he gets to hide everything from you. While you are at it, a spread sheet with all monthly income/expenses will be helpful. He has his head in the sand, but you do not have to also.

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by SleeplessMommy

As a SAHM, you have time on your hands. I would demand full financial disclosure, copies of the stock sales/purchases, copies of all the credit card statements, copies of back tax filing, etc. Get all the documents you need, then find a good CPA or tax attorney. It is possible that there has been a mistake in a past filing - you can submit a revised tax filing and get any credit applied to what is owed.

Your goal is to make a plan to did out of debt by the time dd is in college. A good financial adviser can suggest the pros/cons of bankruptcy vs. selling house (short sale?) vs. monthly payments for the next 20 years.

Yes, your husband has an incentive to spend money like there is no tomorrow. But that does not mean he gets to hide everything from you. While you are at it, a spread sheet with all monthly income/expenses will be helpful. He has his head in the sand, but you do not have to also.

I think that this is excellent advice.

[EmsMom]

This is one complex story. BabyA's mom, I would avoid going into any financial commitments with your husband (and I mean ANY!). It might be a good idea to consult an attorney and see what your liabilities/rights are in this situation. The odds are that your dh is probably massively in debt (more than you are figuring out). This type of thing generally crashes at some point, so you should make sure that YOU and the baby are taken care of not matter what. Life insurance, disability insurance, emergency savings, retirment. You can probably also buy life insurance on your husband (would you assume his debts if he passed? Consult a lawyer!) and disability. Of course that would really cut into what you are saving. Being a frugal lady, you could probably take your dhs budget in hand and get rid of the debt if he would give you access and agree to an allowance. But it would probably cause huge strife between the two of you. You are already not saving for your retirement to pay for his extravegences. You need to look at this very hard.

[IntuitiveJamie]

I've had to sit down and write everything out and show it to dh..several times. He usually gets annoyed and sometimes it didn't help in the past. But I know when I can really point something valid out it helps. For example, many years ago, when we were super poor cuz dh was in school and I stopped working at the end of my pregnancy I realized that the little bit dh was bringing in from part time work was going all towards his beer and cigarrette habit. Anyways, it was eating up like more than half the cost of his income. He nevers pays attention to this sort of stuff. So I wrote it all down and showed him the numbers and it really got his attention. Especially since we had a kid on the way. So his beer and cigarrette funds went to basically zero and things changed. He still sucks with money and I still have to spell things out to him. It's frustrating but I think he's finally tired of being poor.

That is prob. not that helpful for you but that is the only thing I can think to do.