5 yr old playing doctor! WWYD? - Page 3

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by hipchick

I would imagine that one difference between playing doctor and molestation is if one of the children felt embarrassed when it was happening and felt victimized as a result.

Children who are molested don't always immediately feel embarrassed, but it's still molestation. It still affects them and can cause them trouble in the future.

I think when there's a power differential, such as an age difference (as with the 10-year-old girl and the OP's girl), that is definitely molestation, regardless of how the younger child reacts. Think about when a 45-year-old man goes after a 14-year-old girl. It's rape no matter how the 14-year-old girl feels because the power differential makes her easily manipulated and confused. But with this girl and the boy who is the same age, I don't think so, although I don't doubt the specific thing she chose to do was influenced by this earlier incident.

The OP seems to be very responsive and responsible about what happened with the 10-year-old, so my guess is she's had her daughter (or was it step-daughter?) in counseling. I still think that the kids need to be looked in on if things get quiet, and that the door should stay open, but I don't think this newer incident is anything to freak out about. Though I understand the OP's high level of concern given the earlier problem.

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

I TOTALLY agree with whalemilk and MayBaby.

When I was 5 or 6, I was playing on the playground, dangling my legs over the side of the jungle gym. Another girl (maybe a year or two older?) came over and, without a word, stuck her hand up my shorts to feel in/around my vagina. I was *shocked* and went to my mom immediately, who took me to our van and cleaned my vulva with baby wipes. She was very calm about it and presented it as an issue more of cleanliness than anything else. She also told me that the girl was confused and probably did it because someone else had done something wrong to her. This may have been TMI for someone my age, but it did help me make sense of it and not feel guilty. Nevertheless, I do NOT have good feelings about that experience or think of it as "experimentation." I felt very much violated by it, and so I am NOT okay with kids "playing doctor." My mind was way too small to comprehend what was going on, and I don't think I could have "chosen" to do it with any sort of clarity or free will. It would be ENTIRELY worth it to me to supervise my child's play for the next ten years if it were necessary to keep her from having MayBaby's experience.

In this case, it sounds to me like the OP's daughter is trying to deal with her own molestation-- to make it "ok"-- by becoming the actor rather than the recipient. This would be very troubling to me.... but it also sounds like the OP is doing the right thing by having her child in therapy. If the OP's daughter is rebellious and likes to do things because adults tell her not to, then explaining that "kissing/touching private parts/etc" is something adults do" is probably not going to keep the behavior from happening. The only solution seems to be to prevent the opportunity, which is what the OP is doing.

[thixle]

Originally Posted by LionessMom

she also thinks it is ok if she likes it even though we have told her kids are not allowed to do those things. we need a new tactic.

Can you explain this a little more? It's the main thing that has popped out at me...
I think it is perfectly fine for kids to enjoy experimenting *with themselves* Sexual exploration like that with others should wait until she is older. As in, does she know it is okay to explore herself and experience the emotions and physical feelings by herself? That it becomes wrong when others are involved because of her age?
Many children who are molested are further shamed because they "like it"-- not everything surrounding it, but the physical sensations. Or they are confused as to how it can be such a bad thing when it DOES feel good. There is no harm in that, it is an involuntary response like feeling better after a really good poo or pee... once again, things to do in private. Would that angle help at all?

[whalemilk]

I think we're veering into territory far too rugged for amateurs at this point.

[thixle]

Originally Posted by whalemilk

I think we're veering into territory far too rugged for amateurs at this point.

That aimed at me?

[forrestguy]

this same thing happened with my five y/o son, we had an older girl over and I found them in the bathroom together, he was naked. She had told him to take his clothes off and he did. And then another time she was 'changing his diaper' on the bed. I freaked out and stopped having that girl over. My son didn't seem bothered by it, but I think it's too young. I found out later that this girl had been molested by a friend's older brother. He had put a pen in her vagina. I don't like it. My husband seemed to think it was normal, but it made me very uncomfortable. Especially when it's an older child doing it to a younger child.

[Mosaic]

Originally Posted by whalemilk

I think we're veering into territory far too rugged for amateurs at this point.

I agree, and I don't think this was aimed at anyone in particular. There are a lot of factors here: age, previous molestation, natural curiosity, etc... It's complicated enough that I, for one, would love a professional's opinion on it. For every poster who says they engaged in harmless experimentation as a young child, there is another poster who has a painful or uncomfortable memory or something similar. The end result is that I'm not quite sure what the right response would be.

I'll admit I'm very uncomfortable with the situation described by the OP and I'm surprised so many people consider it normal. Maybe I'm really just that naive, but I can't fathom being ok with *anyone* licking my DD's private parts at that age or and can't imagine consciously putting her into a position where something like that might happen again.

[whalemilk]

I think that the child's history of prior abuse means that anything in this category needs to be handled with more care. It's very common for people who have been abused in any manner to act out as the aggressor in order to cope with their own trauma. I think it needs to be addressed by a sensitive therapist who has special training in handling childhood sexual abuse trauma.

Personally, I think that sexually exploring oneself (ie masturbation) is normal and healthy at every age. I think that realistically, a firm line needs to be drawn about "experimentation" between children, though. The only "doctor" games I could see allowing in my house would be listening to each other's hearts with stethoscopes. I don't think it's appropriate for young friends to disrobe, grope, probe, or "explore" each other, or to engage in any kind of sexualized roleplaying. It's too big of a grey area. One child may be fine with it, another may be traumatized, and you can't tell reliably what's going to be the tipping point. That's not to say I'd shriek and slap hands or whatever the stereotype of the "uptight" mother is. But I'd definitely be VERY firm about private areas being private, and that kind of thing.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by heather8

I agree, and I don't think this was aimed at anyone in particular. There are a lot of factors here: age, previous molestation, natural curiosity, etc... It's complicated enough that I, for one, would love a professional's opinion on it. For every poster who says they engaged in harmless experimentation as a young child, there is another poster who has a painful or uncomfortable memory or something similar. The end result is that I'm not quite sure what the right response would be.

I'll admit I'm very uncomfortable with the situation described by the OP and I'm surprised so many people consider it normal. Maybe I'm really just that naive, but I can't fathom being ok with *anyone* licking my DD's private parts at that age or and can't imagine consciously putting her into a position where something like that might happen again.

I didn't read where *anyone* said it was OK or normal for a 10-year-old to lick the OP's dd's vulva. There are two different things that happened and people are continually confusing the two. There was the incident where the PP's dd was molested by a 10-year-old. Then there was an incident where the PP's dd kissed another 5-year-old's (a boy's) pants in the crotch region. People have said that the interaction between the two 5-year-olds was pretty normal, although I do think the specific action was chosen because she was previously molested, but between two 5-year-olds I think that particular interaction isn't anything to freak out about. I think the parents (both sets) should have the kids keep the door open and pop their heads in from time to time, particularly when it gets quiet, but I don't think something outside the clothes between two 5-year-olds is that big of a deal. Keep talking to her about appropriate play and private areas, don't let them play with the door closed and check in every so often, pay attention if it gets quiet, and let them play, IMO.

[MayBaby2007]

Originally Posted by mamazee

I didn't read where *anyone* said it was OK or normal for a 10-year-old to lick the OP's dd's vulva. There are two different things that happened and people are continually confusing the two. There was the incident where the PP's dd was molested by a 10-year-old. Then there was an incident where the PP's dd kissed another 5-year-old's (a boy's) pants in the crotch region. People have said that the interaction between the two 5-year-olds was pretty normal, although I do think the specific action was chosen because she was previously molested, but between two 5-year-olds I think that particular interaction isn't anything to freak out about. I think the parents (both sets) should have the kids keep the door open and pop their heads in from time to time, particularly when it gets quiet, but I don't think something outside the clothes between two 5-year-olds is that big of a deal. Keep talking to her about appropriate play and private areas, don't let them play with the door closed and check in every so often, pay attention if it gets quiet, and let them play, IMO.

yes, there are 2 diff issues. IMO, both issues are wrong. I dont kiss my friends on their clothed private areas--kids shouldn't either. If a parent knowingly allows their child to kiss another childs clothed private area, there is a huge and serious problem.

ITA with pp who have said it's 100% normal for SELF exploration/masturbation...but messing with private areas should always be a private matter, not shared with other kids.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by MayBaby2007

yes, there are 2 diff issues. IMO, both issues are wrong. I dont kiss my friends on their clothed private areas--kids shouldn't either. If a parent knowingly allows their child to kiss another childs clothed private area, there is a huge and serious problem.

ITA with pp who have said it's 100% normal for SELF exploration/masturbation...but messing with private areas should always be a private matter, not shared with other kids.

Kids have *always* at least looked at other kids' private areas. It's incredibly common and yes, normal. And you can try to oversee it and all, but it might very well happen at some point. If it's between two kids of the same age, then I wouldn't (and haven't) freaked out, I've just talked about what appropriate play is and reminded my daughter about private parts. And this hasn't come up for a year as I recall, so that seemed to be enough. This little girl, because she was molested, will no doubt need more reminders and will need a responsible adult to poke his/her head in the door of the room where they're playing from time to time, especially if it gets quiet (because when this kind of thing goes on, it seems to get quiet.) But it isn't anything to keep friends apart over. And she will probably feel punished by not being allowed to play with this friend (or any boys apparently, though girls do this same kind of thing with other girls) and I think that's really sad.

[LionessMom]

Originally Posted by thixle

Can you explain this a little more? It's the main thing that has popped out at me...
I think it is perfectly fine for kids to enjoy experimenting *with themselves* Sexual exploration like that with others should wait until she is older. As in, does she know it is okay to explore herself and experience the emotions and physical feelings by herself? That it becomes wrong when others are involved because of her age?
Many children who are molested are further shamed because they "like it"-- not everything surrounding it, but the physical sensations. Or they are confused as to how it can be such a bad thing when it DOES feel good. There is no harm in that, it is an involuntary response like feeling better after a really good poo or pee... once again, things to do in private. Would that angle help at all?

i have explained that there is nothing wrong with it feeling good. i explained that she can touch herself there but noones else can. DSD1 is very precocious and has always needed more info on everything. we have done the whole gamut of talks. she tinks she knows more than adults and doesnt trust them. of course the crap with her bio-mom being too drunk to take care of her did not help that at all. now that we have her we are having a hard time getting her to believe that we do know a lot more than she does, or to believe that she can trust us.

Originally Posted by whalemilk

I think that the child's history of prior abuse means that anything in this category needs to be handled with more care. It's very common for people who have been abused in any manner to act out as the aggressor in order to cope with their own trauma. I think it needs to be addressed by a sensitive therapist who has special training in handling childhood sexual abuse trauma.

this is a good point. i didnt think about the fact that her recreating events is a way to make it ok within herself. i will remind the therapist of this to see if she might redirect the play in the therapy to work out this issue. maybe then she will leave the poor little boys alone.

[forrestguy]

This is such a subjective topic. Everyone is coming at it from their own perspective and I think with such a personal issue, it's really better to trust your own instincts.

[LionessMom]

so i decided to give my DSDs diaries. they cant really write yet but i told them that they can put anything in there they want. fears hopes etc. i told them they can put secrets in there too and nobody is allowed to read it without their permission. DSD1 loved it and wrote/drew in it for hours. i just took a 3 ring binder and put paper in it and wrote their name on the outside. i even let them hide it under their beds. maybe this will help with the trust between them and I. By letting them have privacy and secrets they will realize they can trust me to guard their secrets and feelings as well? it felt good to do it and i think they appreciated it.

[babytimeagain]

Originally Posted by MayBaby2007

I think you are 100% right by not allowing boys in her room and by not allowing her to go over to that house anymore.

I played "doctor" between ages 5-7 with the older neighborhood kids, as well as kids my own age. We wound up naked and probed--almost everytime I went over to play. I never told anyone. That is exactly why MY daughter will never have that opportunity--she can play at MY house in the main living area so I can keep an eye on her. That age is too curious...and things happen. Bad things.

OP--follow your guts. Keep DSD away from that house and don't let them have "private" (doors closed) play at your house! Kids aren't so innocent sometimes...it's up to us, the parents, to protect them.

I totally agree with this.