Big box stores

[mamamilkers]

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[Satori]

Its just there way of support mom and pop stores. Great if you can afford it but we go to big box stores for most things becasue we get wayyyyyy better deals.

[Satori]

Originally Posted by mamamilkers

Especially if you live in Seattle I would love to know specifically where you shop instead of, say, Target (for example). Where do you buy your toilet paper and deoderant instead?

Try Walgreens or CVS, you can usually get it dirt cheap if not free if you pay attention

[Astrid1024]

There are several arguments concerning why one shouldn't shop at "Big Box" stores like Walmart, Target, etc.

1. Mega retailers wipe out the local economy of small towns. Super Walmarts for example can offer better deals than small, locally owned shops thereby putting those shops out of business. Once the tax incentives offered to Walmart upon initially moving into a town run out, they pull up stakes and leave the town with little in the way of grocery stores, clothing stores, etc. This is a helpful site - http://www.newrules.org/retail/econimpact.html#1

2. Mega Retailers like Walmart, no matter how much they advertise and "green-wash" their image, are bad for the environment and the organic and sustainability movement - this is a scathing and well written article - http://www.organicconsumers.org/arti...rticle_549.cfm

3. Mega Retailers have abysmal labor practices both here (wages and benefits for employees) and abroad (slave labor of 3rd world workers) - http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3044wal-mart.html

I've used Walmart as an example - but other retailers are not much better - Target is only a little better than Walmart, so if I had to pick, I would shop at Target, but I generally avoid all big box stores like the plague. I buy deodorant and shampoo and all other household products at my locally owned grocery co-op. I get locally grown produce at my weekly farmers market. I buy presents at locally owned shops in my neighborhood. I just try to keep my money in my local economy. That said, sometimes you need a fan or an electronic item. I am lucky enough that I can generally look ahead enough to get these second hand from my local thrift store which benefits those in need in my own community, but if that fails, I do have a locally owned electronics store a couple of miles from my house.

Last but not least, I just try to consume less - to buy less - so I rarely need to go to big box stores.

Have a look around this site - http://www.walletmouth.com/
It's fun and it will teach you a ton - I learn much from it every time I visit.

Hope this answers your question without seeming overly-preachy. It's just something that's easy to get very passionate about.

It's really important and commendable of you to ask the question and I appreciate the opportunity to open up a dialogue about it. :

[A&A]

We shop at Costco, but not Walmart or Sam's Club. Costco treats their employees better.

[mamamilkers]

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[mamamilkers]

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[Ruthla]

Also some people find that when they go to a big box store, they get sucked in by marketing and end up buying tons of stuff they didn't actually need or budget for. It's cheaper to buy JUST what you need at a small store than to buy what you need plus a bunch of other junk at the big store.

I do still shop at Target- primarily because I have a Target Visa to pay off, and after the post office lost my check to them once (causing me late fees even though I mailed the check with plenty of time to spare) so I like paying it in person. Once I'm there paying my bill, I might pick up a few items.

I won't buy deodorant at Target anyway because I use a product (deodorant crystal) that Target doesn't carry- I get it at a health food store. Toilet paper I usually get at Trader Joe's. I still buy small items like bandaids at Target because they're cheaper there and it's not an item I need to purchase frequently.

I also get lots of DD1's clothes there because she fits well into them, and I don't have time to go to the thrift store constantly with her when she's in school so many hours a week- not to mention that a single trip to Target can get her outfitted for a season, while multiple trips to the thrift store cost more fuel for my car. I wear mostly thrift store clothes, as does my homeschooled daughter (DS wears a lot of handmedowns, plus pants ordered from Land'sEnd.com) but she *needs* certain things to fit in at school.

I also try to consume as little as possible, but we still live in society and teenagers have a harder time coping with peer pressure. I think that making some compromises for her sake are reasonable.

[Lilcrunchie]

I do hit Target on occasion, and am not 100 percent big box free. However, I get about 75% of my groceries from a locally-owned co-op grocery, and then the rest from a mix of local farmer's market, direct from the farm (CSA), Costco, WFs, and Trader Joe's. Costco is a big box but does treat their employees well and their CEO doesn't make an insane amount of money compared to most CEOs (not that he's hurting or anything but better than most of the retailers out there).

I can buy deodorant and other personal care products, etc. at my co-op, or I often buy in bulk with some local friends/family from Frontier (wholesale). Frontier isn't local to me but they are carbon neutral, which makes me feel a wee bit better They carry a lot of the natural brands, etc. and the discount is helpful to me : I buy makeup online from a WAHM (seller of mineral makeup). I try to buy 2nd hand when I can, and local stuff when I can (we often gift locally made jewelry to my SILs for holidays/bday for example). We switched from a corporate/large scale big box pharmacy to a mom-and-pop place (2nd generation female pharmacist in a small little tiny old time pharmacy. She fills all of her own orders).

I still shop the big boxes, but we usually can find an alternative for most things if we really try. Etsy and those type of sites rock for locating WAHM products for gifts or even "needs" for yourself (soap, body care, etc).

I personally consider Walgreens, CVS, etc. big boxes as well. They've pushed out most of the locally owned mom and pop pharmacies from what I've read in the past.

For me, avoiding big boxes is about quality, ethics, working conditions, what types of products are carried and where they come from (humane or inhumane working conditions?), promoting variety (big boxes all tend to carry the same brands), etc. I am not able to avoid them entirely, but I try to buy local/family owned, etc. I am fortunate to live in an area that still has family owned toy stores for example.

[Astrid1024]

Originally Posted by mamamilkers

Also, can anyone define what these stores are? I get Target and Wal-Mart. But what about stores like Fred Meyer or Walgreen's?

This definition comes from this incredibly long study which looks really interesting from what I read - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...pH-rb4Y6Yw-5XQ

"II. “BIG BOX” DEFINITIONS
A. Classifications Based on Physical Area & Types of Stores
There is no single definition of big box retail, but most definitions tend to focus on the square footage of retail outlets as rather than the items sold inside the stores. For example, the state of California defines big box retail as a “store of greater than 75,000 square feet of gross buildable area that will generate sales or use tax.”9 The Maryland Department of Planning
defines big box retail facilities as “large, industrial-style buildings or stores with footprints that generally range from 20,000 square feet to 200,000 square feet.”10 In October 2003, the City of Los Angeles commissioned a study to identify potential impacts of big box retailers in the city’s neighborhoods (“the Rodino report”). The Rodino report defined big box stores as “[a]ny large store format that is larger than a specified threshold of square footage in size. Generally this threshold ranges from as low as 60,000 sq. ft. to 130,000 sq. ft.”11 The wide variance of size used to define big box stores is a reflection of the weakness of a size-based indicator itself. A Hawaii Legislative Reference Bureau study noted, “[b]ecause of product category, ‘big’ is relative. For example a book retailer occupying 25,000 square feet would qualify as a ‘big box.’ On the other hand, a ‘big box’ warehouse outlet like Costco may occupy 120,000 square feet or more.”12 In order to understand the meaning behind the range of big box size, it is important to understand the range of establishments that typically qualify as big box retail. There are four major big box subgroups as defined by the Maryland and Hawaii studies. They include: Discount Department Stores: These big box stores range from 80,000 to 200,000 square feet and offer a wide variety of merchandise, up to 60,000 distinct items, at low prices.13 Examples include K-Mart, Wal-Mart, and Target. “Superstores,” defined and
described below, are an offshoot of the discount department store.

“Category Killers:” These big boxes are so named because they do not intend to compete with existing businesses, rather “they mean to kill them off and monopolize the market.”14 Category killers are specialty or niche stores that offer a large selection of items in a particular category and may vary in size from 20,000 to 120,000 square feet.15 Retailers include Barnes & Noble/Borders Books, Music & Café, (ranging from 25,000 to 45,000 square feet16), Blockbuster Video, Circuit City, Office Depot, Lowe’s,
Home Depot, and Toys ‘R Us.17 This group depends on high sales volume and not price markups, dealing directly with product manufacturers to eliminate middleman
charges.18

Outlet Stores: These big box stores range from 20,000 to 80,000 square feet, and are often the discount arms of major department stores.19 Retailers include Nordstrom Rack, Nike, and Burlington Coat Factory.20 Some manufacturers sell merchandise directly through outlet stores so as to reduce costs by eliminating middleman charges.21

Warehouse Clubs: These big boxes range from 104,000 to 170,000 square feet and offer a variety of goods in bulk wholesale process. Warehouse clubs typically charge their customers an annual fee and provide a limited number of product items, generally 5,000 or less.22 This group includes Costco Wholesale, Pace, and Sam’s Club.23"

[Theia]

What is the TRUE COST, not the Sale Price

I try to avoid big box stores when at all possible. There are truly very few things I will buy at one. We have a Shop-n-Cart, Bi-Mor, and RiteAid in this town, thank god that's all! So the only things I ever buy at the above stores are at SnC, and it's stuff that is usually from a company like 7thGen, the TP, cleaners and such. I won't purchase charmin, kleenex, or tidybowl type products due to the environmental effects. I am very comfortable saying that over 90% of the products that I purchase are from our local food co-op in town (aside from clothes which mostly come as gifts or from resale shops). Really, I feel icky when in the other stores, and it disturbs me to see so much plastic, waste, and products that are pollutants in the other stores.

I see it this way. I can spend 10 dollars on stuff at our locally owned store. I know that those $10 almost exclusively go right back into my local community, surely $8 of the $10. If I were to spend the same $10 in any box store, then I'd be lucky to have $2 stay in my local community. The more we can keep the money in our community, the greater chances are that the community and those who live in it will benefit. Every time you spend money at WalMart, Target, even smaller retailers like FredMeyer, most of your money leaves your community. Our co-op works very hard to source it's products from within a 100 mile radius. Sure, there are products that are from much farther away than that, but because of this one store, I am sure that there are many more local small farms because I see their products for sale in the store, so they aren't completely reliant on farmers markets and such.

Look at your money as a vote. Each dollar spent on a product from a particular store is a vote for more of the same. If no dollars are spent on a product or in a particular store, then those things will fall away. Even if you are buying 7thGen stuff at a box store : you are still voting for that store. I'm not perfect yet. But I am continually getting closer to my personal goal of not purchasing ANYTHING from such stores, because the money I save on purchasing products from them is illusory. We as a society don't take into account the FULL cost of a product. Like say you are at WalMart buying a towel. You can get this towel for $5 so it seems like a good deal for a fluffy new towel. But it's an illusion because we don't factor into the cost of the towel things like: the petrol used to make the pesticide/herbicide/fungicide that was sprayed on the cotton, the cost of the petrol that ran the tractor as it ran up and down the field multiple times during the planting/growing/harvesting of the cotton, the cost of transporting the raw/finished product, the cost of taking raw cotton and gin/dye/weaving it into a finished product..... and the biggest cost here IMHO is the water. How much will it cost us to clean the water that was polluted during this whole process that eventually allowed us to buy a $5 towel? Really that cost is mind-boggling because unfortunately we don't clean the water properly and use nasty chemicals that we don't know how to remove so we just allow these pollutants to run through our communities and out with the water spurting from the shower head, before we reach for our $5 towel to dry off. So yes, initially you have more money in your pocket, and when times are tight that is a big deal. But later, when your health suffers, or your children and their generation is trying to figure out how to clean up the enormous mess made by the generation of their parents and grandparents, then it ceases to make sense to support such things.

ITA with lilcrunchy,

For me, avoiding big boxes is about quality, ethics, working conditions, what types of products are carried and where they come from (humane or inhumane working conditions?), promoting variety (big boxes all tend to carry the same brands), etc. I am not able to avoid them entirely, but I try to buy local/family owned, etc. I am fortunate to live in an area that still has family owned toy stores for example.

I'd also suggest a book "Cradle To Cradle" for understanding more about the waste of big box retailer products. It's not about big box stores, but gives a good perspective of sustainable commerce which is what my little soapbox rant about the $5 towel was all about.
http://www.mcdonough.com/cradle_to_cradle.htm

[miss_sonja]

Costco is a big box, but I love them for the limited selection, CEO pay issue (mentioned by a PP) and for me, in the NW, they're a local company.

I avoid Target because of tempation primarily. Too many things calling out to me.

Walgreens is evil, but I occasionaly do a little drugstore gaming. I hate their set-up, they have obvious security cameras everywhere, makes me feel they don't trust me and don't really want my business. We don't have CVS here, but it's probably the same. Ditto Rite-Aid.

Fred Meyer used to be local, but is now owned by Kroger, a mega-chain.

I buy most of my stuff at Costco, get an organic produce delivery, and fill in with my local market (locally owned!) and Trader Joe's. If just feels better to buy local.

Here's an example. I bought a toilet seat at Wal-Mart (was there with a friend, and it was on my list). It turned out to be defective, so I had to haul it back. The new one was also defective, and darned it I'm going back again. I went to a local hardware store and bought one instead.

[lifeguard]

Some FANTASTIC points here - thank you for starting this thread. It is something I struggle with all the time. On one hand I want to buy local, at locally run stores but often struggle to even find such a thing. When I do - I sooo often end up making two trips 'cause the local store doesn't carry what I need & then I end up having to go to the big box afterall. But I try to be careful & make the effort.

Here is a great link some people might find interesting on the issue: http://www.storyofstuff.com/

[Purple*Lotus]

I am lucky in that, although we have a super walmart here, we still have two other grocery stores I can visit instead.

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Also some people find that when they go to a big box store, they get sucked in by marketing and end up buying tons of stuff they didn't actually need or budget for. It's cheaper to buy JUST what you need at a small store than to buy what you need plus a bunch of other junk at the big store.

This is me, in a nutshell. On the rare occasion that I go to one, I usually have to take DH with me to avoid impulse buys.

[p.s]

for all the reasons that peace loving and sara.astrid itemized, I do not shop at big box stores. Dh though, does shop at Home depot and Lowes, although he still does about 1/3 of his hardware shopping at the corner/ local hardware shop (often their selection on specialty items is of higher quality).
I fully realize though, that our choice which we can choose b/c of income, is a non-optional luxury for others.

to me, big box stores are an American blight, a huge pimple on the urban landscape, devourer of ginormous tax subsidies which I as a taxpayer support but do not recoup since I am a big box non-consumer, and destroyer of the character of local communities which are defined by particular local or mom-pop stores.

alot of the comestibles that are bought at big box stores, I get through running a co-op, like toilet paper or detergents. The kind of clothes that one would buy at a big box, I make. Fresh produce in season we buy from the farmer's market. And meat we buy through two local farms or else the dairy farm, also our source for milk, dairy, sausage.

[Amys1st]

I try to avoid the big box stores. Frontier is only a state away which is considered local so I buy from them in a coop I run. I buy toilettrees, spices, teas, cleaning supplies etc. Most of the stuff is not available at Target etc so it makes sense.

We have a locally owned grocery store that I shop all the time. The local larger grocery store is no longer locally owned so I do not shop them at all or very little- Jewel and Dominicks used to be Chicago owned companies and are not anymore.

One thing to think about when shopping a national presence store or a local mom and pop:

When you shop the mom and pop- 75% of the money you spend goes right back into your community. Such as you buy your gourmet coffee drink that is $4 at the local coffee house that is owned by your neighbor he will then have his books done by the CPA across the street, his kids will go to school next to yours and you help pay his property taxes, He will pay employees from your neighborhood to work there and again their money can go to the local economy. He will join the chamber, support the local events etc because its his town and neighborhood as well.

If you get thata $4 plus drink at Charbucks- maybe 15% will go back to your community. You may know the younger worker at the drive thru, but the manager is maybe from your town or just working this location while moving on to that bigger store a few towns over and then move on. You will pay for investors profits that are all over, not from just from your neighborhood. This company maybe strong armed your town to get into this location, making it sound like it will change the town for the better. They will not buy advertising space in your local papers, may not "create" new jobs for you town or anything like that since they hire and train their own and move them around to the other stores just like it.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by Satori

Try Walgreens or CVS, you can usually get it dirt cheap if not free if you pay attention

I still consider these big box stores. Walgreen's came into town and opened 6 stores in one season. They practically closed down the local drug stores.

There are local stores that sell everything. even if it is a chain. looks for one that is most locally owned.

(that said I shop at big box stores all the time because they have better deals and generally their employees are paid more and have better benefits. and we own a mom and pop store. also I don't agree that most of the money from your purchases stays local. most of the money from your purchase at our store goes right out the door to large international corporations.)

[Amys1st]

For us Walgreens is a local company but yes, there are about 6 in a 3 mile radius of our house. Oddly there is one a block away that most of my neighborhood walks to so its weirdly small townish at this location and the employees know everyone and how we all walk there etc.


I do not have a costco membership but I have gone with my friend who does have one. Good prices and yes good to their employees. But like pp said, its not a local company and most of the produce/food is not local as well.

[p.s]

Originally Posted by Amys1st

I do not have a costco membership but I have gone with my friend who does have one. Good prices and yes good to their employees. But like pp said, its not a local company and most of the produce/food is not local as well.

and alot of the brands for produce that Costco carries are the same as the local grocery store, but just multiple sized. Where we moved from, I shopped at Costco all the time, b/c there was no farmer's market locally.
And if I'm paying twice the price of the local supermarket, but getting 3 - 5 times the amount of blueberries from NJ or raspberries from CA, and the same label stuck on larger packaging, well then I'll do it.

A local dairy is a 13 min drive from home now. I can get raw milk, raw cream, free range eggs. While dh and ds visit the cows in pasture, a hundred feet from the entrance to the shop, I can buy sausage and meats that these animals later become. Unfortunately, the closest such farm was over 1 h away before we moved (different state), so being local was just not practical for us then.

lilyka, i think what people refer to as profits staying local is how the company varies in investing or divesting profits. A large corporation is probably going to be paying it's profits to shareholders as dividends or re-investing in the corporation, i.e. opening new stores in some other state. A mom- and pop store is unlikely to be sharing it's profits with other pockets far away. They also tend to invest more in the local community (maintaining advertising in a local paper say, or contributing to local fund drives, etc). Of course if it is not profitable, it's not profitable.
Both of my grandfathers owned the largest stores in their communities (one gf was also the Colgate Palmolive distr for that country). They expected to do things like help local efforts like buildings (i.e. hospital, schools, etc) and also helped people with loans, etc though they weren't the bank or a bank. they had a vested interest in their communities 1. b/c they lived there, 2. b/c the better the community, the better for business for them.
Bottom line, Walmart doesn't care that municipal funds are down in small town South Dakota and that the local library can't afford to buy computers. This is something that a local business (if doing well) can sponsor.

[Amys1st]

Originally Posted by p.s

and alot of the brands for produce that Costco carries are the same as the local grocery store, but just multiple sized. Where we moved from, I shopped at Costco all the time, b/c there was no farmer's market locally.
And if I'm paying twice the price of the local supermarket, but getting 3 - 5 times the amount of blueberries from NJ or raspberries from CA, and the same label stuck on larger packaging, well then I'll do it.

A local dairy is a 13 min drive from home now. I can get raw milk, raw cream, free range eggs. While dh and ds visit the cows in pasture, a hundred feet from the entrance to the shop, I can buy sausage and meats that these animals later become. Unfortunately, the closest such farm was over 1 h away before we moved (different state), so being local was just not practical for us then.

lilyka, i think what people refer to as profits staying local is how the company varies in investing or divesting profits. A large corporation is probably going to be paying it's profits to shareholders as dividends or re-investing in the corporation, i.e. opening new stores in some other state. A mom- and pop store is unlikely to be sharing it's profits with other pockets far away. They also tend to invest more in the local community (maintaining advertising in a local paper say, or contributing to local fund drives, etc). Of course if it is not profitable, it's not profitable.
Both of my grandfathers owned the largest stores in their communities (one gf was also the Colgate Palmolive distr for that country). They expected to do things like help local efforts like buildings (i.e. hospital, schools, etc) and also helped people with loans, etc though they weren't the bank or a bank. they had a vested interest in their communities 1. b/c they lived there, 2. b/c the better the community, the better for business for them.
Bottom line, Walmart doesn't care that municipal funds are down in small town South Dakota and that the local library can't afford to buy computers. This is something that a local business (if doing well) can sponsor.

I meant the produce. I know that they have several brands that I would buy at the grocery or other but in bulk which I do. For produce, I can get it pretty good locally so I do but I can understand why others go to costco.