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Could you be friends with someone who works for a formula company? - Page 8

post #141 of 175
Quote:
Perhaps instead you could invite this new mommy and find out what her story really is. Maybe all the mom's in the playgroup could band together and donate milk to this mom that is using formula.
I would have jumped on a chance like this in a heartbeat.

We're actually going to the paed today. Dd is getting a referral to have a scope done to check for damage from her silent reflux. I'm actually going to see my therapist again today, to continue working on my issues re: her traumatic birth and our failed bf relationship.

She still has t-shirts and onesies that promote bf'ing. And I'm usually the loudest (in my group) when it comes to promoting breastmilk... go figure.
post #142 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonrisaa29 View Post

Perhaps instead you could invite this new mommy and find out what her story really is. Maybe all the mom's in the playgroup could band together and donate milk to this mom that is using formula.

Yes, I got that all the time too. And it makes me sad, that someone is so quick to judge me though they know nothing about me.
I'm not really sure what kind of world you all think I live in... I don't invite every woman I meet out in public. Also: I am the "crunchiest" of all my friends. I highly doubt any of the moms in my playgroup would have any interest in donating milk or cross nursing. I have only one friend who has ever expressed an interest or openness to cross nursing. I'm the only one in my playgroup who had a natural birth, I'm the only one who has delayed vaccinations, I'm the only one who uses CD. While the group was started from moms in a breastfeeding support group, we have invited new moms from churches, baby gym classes, library story times, etc.

I don't generally walk up to every woman I see with a baby or small child and interview them about their feeding habits.

Do you walk up to random mommies and ask them their story?
post #143 of 175
1) Yup formula is a food. Breastmilk is not really a food. It's a living biological fluid more akin to blood. Its function goes way beyond mere nutrition.

2) Health effects that not breastfeeding and exposure to second-hand smoke both have in common:

increased rate of SIDS
respiratory infections such as asthma, pneumonia, and bronchitis
allergies
frequent ear infections
cancer (in childhood AND increased risk of different types into adulthood)
generally depressed immune system

Additional health effects caused by not breastfeeding that are not caused by second-hand smoke exposure:

lower IQ
increased type 1 and type 2 diabetes
increased overweight and obesity
high cholesterol
diarrhea
21% higher postneonatal mortality rate
increased risk of Crohn's disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and Hodgkin's disease
increased vision defects
increased risk of dental problems including cavities, jaw problems and dental malocclusions
increased risk of osteoporosis
less chance of cardiopulmonary distress when nursing vs. bottle-feeding
poorer serum and secretory responses to oral and parenteral vaccines
increased risk of necrotizing entercolitis
risk of contamination (pathogens, broken glass, production errors which have resulted in various deficiencies)
decreased speech development due to abnormal tongue-thrust
eczema
potential future problems from genetically modified ingredients and synthetic growth hormones present in soy or cow's milk
increased multiple sclerosis
increased risk of inguinal hernia
poorer social development

As you all (hopefully) know more is being learned every day about the importance of real human breastmilk. For instance now we know that stem cells are present in breastmilk. What effect NOT getting these cells has is unknown. It might contribute to one of the risks already known, or it might cause further damage that hasn't yet been assessed. This (frightening) document has a lot of the current research...did you know, for example, that there is a potential link still being studied between formula use and psychological problems like schizophrenia? Check out this document...

Outcomes of Breastfeeding Versus Formula Feeding

Is the comparison of second-hand smoke and formula use perfect? No. But virtually no comparison is perfect. The point is that children deserve clean air and adequate food that doesn't put them at an unreasonable risk. Second-hand smoke is an unreasonable risk, and children deserve clean air. Formula use is an unreasonable risk (does anyone who read the list above disagree with that??) and children deserve breastmilk. It it in the best interests of the government and society in general to do what it takes to give it to them. I think without the pressures from an extremely powerful formula lobby, combined with cultural ignorance about how important breastfeeding is, this is ENTIRELY possible.

3) I cannot imagine how painful it would be to hear all of this if I had not breastfed for whatever reason. And I almost did quit very early on because I had severe problems in the beginning. But the point that I must make is that criticisms of formula are NOT criticisms of mothers who end up formula feeding. Please refer to the Sticky at the top of this forum. Everyone is asked not to take criticisms of formula personally, and if a woman is understandably in a head-space where this kind of info is hurtful, maybe it's not a good idea to read the Lactivism forum? I utterly reject the idea that things like "formula is not adequate" shouldn't be said, particularly in a forum devoted to this subject.

4)My point has been one thing only-- mothers deserve better help and better alternatives. Surely the massive amounts of formula that are being given out are NOT entirely necessary for medical reasons. We all know that MANY mothers simply choose not to do it, I think largely because they are made unaware by the culture of exactly how harmful it is to not breastfeed. And the mothers who truly cannot, through circumstance or whatever, make enough or any milk-- they deserve donor milk just as they would deserve real donor blood if they needed it.

I will not be replying on this particular thread, but if anyone wants more information or sources (beyond the one posted) for the things I am talking about then start a new thread, this is way off-topic. And also read "Milk, Money, and Madness" for number-crunching and the feasibility of providing every child the normal start enjoyed by all baby mammals of every species except human.
post #144 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemnesia View Post
4)My point has been one thing only-- mothers deserve better help and better alternatives. Surely the massive amounts of formula that are being given out are NOT entirely necessary for medical reasons. We all know that MANY mothers simply choose not to do it, I think largely because they are made unaware by the culture of exactly how harmful it is to not breastfeed. And the mothers who truly cannot, through circumstance or whatever, make enough or any milk-- they deserve donor milk just as they would deserve real donor blood if they needed it.
I understand your position on the idea of donor milk - I just want to know where you propose the vast quantities of donor milk come from. And in lieu of donor milk, what exactly would be a better alternative to feed an infant than formula?
post #145 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommyJoia View Post
I'm not really sure what kind of world you all think I live in... I don't invite every woman I meet out in public. Also: I am the "crunchiest" of all my friends. I highly doubt any of the moms in my playgroup would have any interest in donating milk or cross nursing. I have only one friend who has ever expressed an interest or openness to cross nursing. I'm the only one in my playgroup who had a natural birth, I'm the only one who has delayed vaccinations, I'm the only one who uses CD. While the group was started from moms in a breastfeeding support group, we have invited new moms from churches, baby gym classes, library story times, etc.

I don't generally walk up to every woman I see with a baby or small child and interview them about their feeding habits.

Do you walk up to random mommies and ask them their story?
I wasn't saying that you should just walk up and ask her, her story. I meant try inviting her to the playgroup and get to know her. You're automatically discounting a woman because you see that she formula feeds and that's what I find sad.
post #146 of 175
Quote:
1) Yup formula is a food. Breastmilk is not really a food. It's a living biological fluid more akin to blood. Its function goes way beyond mere nutrition.
Etc., etc., ect.

I'm sure the majority of women here already know this... it's the lactivism forum. And the rest of your educational note is basic info as well.

Quote:
Please refer to the Sticky at the top of this forum. Everyone is asked not to take criticisms of formula personally, and if a woman is understandably in a head-space where this kind of info is hurtful, maybe it's not a good idea to read the Lactivism forum? I utterly reject the idea that things like "formula is not adequate" shouldn't be said, particularly in a forum devoted to this subject.
I hardly think anyone here is taking it personally. Trust me, I have much thicker skin than that.

More like, we're questioning the intent and tone behind your posts. Quite frankly I KNOW that formula is not adequate. I have yet to see ANYONE here argue otherwise... As a matter of fact, I was careful to initially point out that very thing.

Quote:
I just don't go walking up to mommies who are bottle feeding and hand them my card to invite them to my playgroup like I do when I see a nursing mommy in public.
My apologies (really) for some reason I took this literally. Feeling a little hot under the collar over here... Going to bow out now.

Just wanted to finish with, those of you who think death before formula is better, just remember there are a lot of shoes out there to walk in.
post #147 of 175
I can not believe that there is a mother out there who would rather her baby starve than have formula. It's not great, but it sure does keep kids alive long enough to get to the solids stage.

It's too bad wet-nursing isn't more common and acceptable. That would probably reduce the amount of formula consumed overall, no?
post #148 of 175
"Living biological fluid like blood"- people necessarily die without blood. They don't necessarily die without breastmilk.

I think you forgot a bunch effects of the poisons in second hand smoke.
post #149 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
"Living biological fluid like blood"- people necessarily die without blood. They don't necessarily die without breastmilk.
ummmm.... Actually they do. There are articles out there with exact numbers, but formula is responsible for numerous deaths around the world due to respiratory and gastrointestinal illness that would not have occurred had the natural bond between nursing mother and baby not been broken. FYI, that includes this country ranking at a horrible #27 in infant mortality.
post #150 of 175
OK, I didn't emphasize the word *necessarily* enough. Take blood away, death, always. Take BM away and replace with something else, sometimes, BUT NOT ALWAYS, equals death. Therefore, not the same.
post #151 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
They don't necessarily die without breastmilk.
Actually, some older children and adults would die w/o donated bm. I know one personally. A friend, whose DS is severly disabled, she was unable to pump enough(he was unable to latch on for a good amount of time)-Has Angles Syndrome), they had MOms from her church community donate-but after a couple of yrs of that, had to turn to a BreastMilk Bank for donated bm-which-at that time, kept him alive. Oh! and insurance paid for it(BCBS I believe) My friend told me she found out that there were many adults who live on bm-to stay alive, as it's the only nourishment their bodies could tolerate. Wow!
post #152 of 175
AHHHHHH! Read carefully.....Everybody ALWAYS dies without blood! Not EVERYBODY ALWAYS dies without breastmilk. I am completely aware that SOME babies die without breastmilk.

Last post attempting to clarify.
post #153 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by nursemummy View Post
Quite frankly I KNOW that formula is not adequate. I have yet to see ANYONE here argue otherwise...
Just because I'm anal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by milkeriffic mama View Post
I don't think anyone here is saying that formula is equivalent to breastmilk. If we felt that way, this conversation wouldn't be taking place at all. However, it is an adequate (although not IDEAL) substitute, and there are cases when it's needed.
post #154 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
AHHHHHH! Read carefully.....Everybody ALWAYS dies without blood! Not EVERYBODY ALWAYS dies without breastmilk. I am completely aware that SOME babies die without breastmilk.

Last post attempting to clarify.
OOps! I'm sorry momma!!! I gotchanow!
post #155 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugMacGee View Post
AHHHHHH! Read carefully.....Everybody ALWAYS dies without blood! Not EVERYBODY ALWAYS dies without breastmilk. I am completely aware that SOME babies die without breastmilk.

Last post attempting to clarify.
I agree!!!!! 100 percent.
post #156 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamicdoula View Post
Um... it's a pretty sensitive time with food shortages/cost increases and gas being $5 a gallon to criticize someone for having a job. JMO. Would you seriously miss out on all the benefits of a possibly great friendship because of her *job?* It would not be worth a lonely existence (to me), just to have everyone I'm close to be in alignment with my values. Whatever happened to celebrating diversity?
:
post #157 of 175
I agree. Geez, if I interrogated every friend I have to find out EXACTLY what they do in their job, I am pretty sure I could find something I don't agree with. Then I would be left a pretty lonely person.
post #158 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanti1 View Post
HERE'S where it gets interesting and goes to a level i'm unwilling to consider. If the government was involved you'd better believe there'd likely be a madatory "donation" required. I'll tell you what, I've bf my kids now for 41 months.....and while i have never, thankfully, had supply issues, i don't have a spare ounce to donate.....but, and call me bitter, but just like the taxes we pay, more and more would be required to be "donated" at the EXPENSE of my own child. Call me selfish.....but this is one area where my own family must come first.
That is really hilarious. Why would the government force or require anyone to do that? No one in Canada is required to give blood and the government gives it for free. It is really funny (or scary depending on the day) to hear about America's paranoia and fear of anything, dare I say it, socialized or even just government administered. When people are that afraid of their government, they need a revolution.
post #159 of 175
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Originally Posted by mrsfrazier View Post
Awesome! I should tell my DH to find a job at B of A if they have that good a paternity leave! If only every company had that....
As of next year, they're bumping it to 12 weeks... but I believe you have to be a full time employee and with the bank for at least a year to be eligible.

My eldest was formula fed exclusively from 9 weeks on. For the first 9 weeks, I was using crappy pumps to express milk for him (I could only get about 8-12 oz a day). I never could get him to latch on, and didn't have the knowledge or resources to get the help I needed.

Do I feel bad that breastfeeding didn't work out? Yes. Do I feel guilty for turning to formula? Not at all. Am I proud that he got that little bit of breastmilk for that first 9 weeks? Absolutely.
post #160 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by soso-lynn View Post
That is really hilarious. Why would the government force or require anyone to do that? No one in Canada is required to give blood and the government gives it for free. It is really funny (or scary depending on the day) to hear about America's paranoia and fear of anything, dare I say it, socialized or even just government administered. When people are that afraid of their government, they need a revolution.
She was replying to my post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton
Again I ask where are you going to get the thousands of women needed to produce the "mind boggling" amount of breastmilk that would be needed to replace formula, heck even just the formula provided by WIC, at a pay rate that would make the price of breastmilk comparable to the cost of formula.
To which I would still love to hear a solution - where are you suggesting we get enough women to produce the vast amount of breastmilk that would be needed to eliminate the need for formula, and if you did found women how many would be willing to be paid pennies an ounce so that the donated breastmilk could remain affordable for those who needed to purchase it. It's simply not possible.

So you can call her hilarious all you want but you obvoiusly did not read her entire post and if you did you took it completely out of context.
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