Where to go from here?

[Nicole77]

I need some suggestions or some perspective. Possibly a bit of both. I am sorry this will be kind of crazy long. Here is the story:

My husband's brother is having his first child with his girlfriend this coming October. When they found out it is a boy last month DH began to talk with him about circumcision. DH is exceptionally good at having this discussion from a very clear-headed, non-emotional, non-confrontational way while at the same time making it clear that we think that circ is very wrong. Several emails and conversations later my Bil has watched the videos, read all the standard articles, heard how the AAP and all others no longer recommend routine, heard current stats on how many kids have an intact penis, all the physical reasons why the foreskin rocks, etc. Everything that you would present to someone to help them make an informed decision. Apparently, he sent all of this information to his girlfriend also but she basically said she didn't care to read any of it, preferred to have the baby circed for cleanliness issues, and would leave the ultimate decision up to my Bil.

And then a few days ago he informed my DH that he has decided to circumcise his son. Even though he read everything there is to read, even though he is aware of the pain involved for his defenseless infant he decided he is going to do it anyway. Why? Because he wants his son's penis to look like his. After all, he has always been happy with his penis and doesn't want his son's to be different. Also, he has talked to some of the women he works with and all these women have explained that they prefer a circumcised penis and so he is afraid that even with a 50/50 split in our area that his son would be mocked and/or not have the same sexual experiences as the circed boys will (ie. the girls won't want to have oral s*x with him or they will shun him because of his foreskin). He sent this web page to my husband with the statement that clearly "American women" prefer a circumcised penis. DH promptly tore apart the website, pointing out that a whopping 145 women responded to this "very scientific" study and that surely that is not representative of "American women," even less so the "American woman" that his son will grow up who will live in a world where roughly half of their sexual partners will be intact. Hell, I can probably find 145 women who think you should just lop the whole penis off.

Anyway, it goes from here. He doesn't seem to care about any of these things and just thinks that the 1-5% tilt towards circumcision in the most recent numbers (2006) show a statistical enough significance to justify having his son circed. Plus, he freely admits that his largest reason comes back to wanting his son to look like him. I do not know where to go from here and neither does DH. He thinks it may be time to drop it and just reconcile ourselves to this. He thinks that Bil entered into the coversation with his mind already made up and just looking for justification for his decision. When he didn't find it in science he went the "personal decision" route so that he could claim feeling attacked if we disagreed in any way.

I am (for some reason) really wrought up over this. I have stayed out of the conversations up until now (except of course for behind the scenes with DH) but am truly flabbergasted by his decision. I feel nothing but disgust and anger for him right now. What does it say about his humanity that he can allow his one day old son to be strapped to a table, sexually tortured, and permanently disfigured purely so that his son's penis can look like his? What kind of monster does this? And what kind of mother blithely allows it as her first act as a loving, protective mother?

My Bil has not yet heard that several states have outlawed their insurance coverage for circ and has also not heard that MA (our state) currently has a bill in the House to outlaw circumcision all together. He has not been questioned on how he will answer for this to his son someday, having known all of these facts and choosing circ anyway. He also has not been harshly called on his vanity taking precedence over his son's human rights. Additionally, his girlfriend has no concept of the pain involved for her future son and has not been sat down to watch the video. Does anyone think that sitting down and having a very serious conversation about these remaining bits (and any others you can think of) could be helpful or would be worth doing for the sake of not sitting quietly by and passively allowing this to occur? Or is it time for us to figure out how to disconnect and let this be their decision, even if we do not think it is morally or ethically theirs to make? And if it is time to let go how do we do this and still even look at them?

[A&A]

Has he seen the Penn & Teller episode yet? It's a funny way to get the message across. (But it does contain the "F" word.)


My brother circ'd his son despite all of my best information. (And my nephew was circ'd RIGHT before my birthday, too, so I still remember it every year.) It took me a long time to get over that and have a relationship with my brother again. I'm not fully over it, actually, but I still talk to him because he's family.

[Quirky]

It's really, really hard. Some people are just going to cover their ears and eyes and shut out everything they don't want to hear, and go with the flow for their own stupid, shallow reasons.

It sounds like you've done just about everything there is to do. The Penn & Teller show might be a last-ditch effort to try, as would the circ video if you can get them to watch it. At a minimum they should know that their baby needs effective pain relief if they're going to cut him.

Maybe your dh can call his brother on his BS and call it like it is? "Hey, bro, I think you're being a jerk. The sign of a good parent is that you want your child to have a BETTER life than you had. Why don't you want your son to have the longest, thickest, and most sensitive penis he can possibly have? Cutting off his foreskin because of your own desire to match is selfish and is about you and your insecurities, not about your son's well-being. If you do this, we will lose a lot of respect for you. Be a man and leave your son's penis alone."

[tennisdude23]

Hi, I just wanted to chirp in. I checked the 2006 rate, 56.1%. That's about a drop of 1.2 percentage points from the previous year. Maybe small on paper, but that's a couple thousand kids right there. What rise are we talking about here??? Oh come on, the women argument. I'm sorry; no intelligent woman would care about how much skin his son's penis will have. That's not an issue. They look virtually same when erect, and you can pull back the skin for oral. Not that it really bothers most sensible people. If somebody would care so much about his son's penis, then she would not be right for him. Foreskin = shallow women repellent, lol. My point is you don't go out with sluts and potheads (hell, most of them probably don't care either) Yeah, it seems that your husband's brother had his mind made up from the beginning. Some people are just so stubborn and egotestical. I mean really penises don't look anything alike when comparing a grown man and a boy. By the way, my dad is cut and I'm not and I never, ever want to or have ever wanted to compare with him, lol. So, that's a BS reason. Locker room argument is BS. My generation had much higher cut rates, and yet I virtually don't know the status of most of my friends. Nobody really looked and we did not parade naked in front of each other. As a guy, I would say that maybe a direct intervention from your husband would work. Really, have him sit his brother down and talk to him guy to guy. That's your best bet. Don't get yourself involved much because he might think this is all your idea or something. As I understand your kids are intact. So, his son would already have intact cousins. Does he think his nephews are disgusting or something for being intact?

[Yulia_R]

I would definiely call bil and explain him why I find circ being abuse (sexual assult) and I'd find it very hard to respect him and to remain friends if he decides to circ his baby KNOWING what he does now.

I would also MADE SURE to point out that if he was missing a finger/toe would he insist on amputating his son's one just to match.
I would also ask if he cared how his dad's penis looked like (I bet he never did).

GOOD LUCK!

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by Nicole77

Or is it time for us to figure out how to disconnect and let this be their decision, even if we do not think it is morally or ethically theirs to make? And if it is time to let go how do we do this and still even look at them?

NOOOOOOOOOOO!

it's a matter of fact, I'd have very hard time respecting a person who knows SO MUCH about circ and yet, allows her nephew to be tortured like this.

You can also use Firestorm's advice (what she did to keep her nephew intact). Tell your bil and his girlfriend that when their son is old enough, you will MAKE sure he knows EXACTLY what was taken from him and that his parents KNEW better and still chose to mutilate him just because his dad is!

[Microsoap]

Circlist website = circumfetishers (those who get sexual satisfaction about cutting the penis) *vomits*

MAKE those two jackasses sit down and watch the www.Intact.ca circumcision video with the speakers turned aaaaall the way up. Even when (hopefully not if, but when!) they start to squirm and want to stop the video, tell them no and remind them that this is the same torture they want to put their son through!

They'd be absolute monsters if they're willing to put their son through such mutilation agony and can't even watch/listen.

[elanorh]

There are three suggestions which come to mind:

1. Have them over for a "Movie Night" and show the circ video mentioned above as the "pre-movie."

2. Have them over while the Penn & Teller episode is on.

3. Hasn't someone posted here about making a little 'kit' with a wig so that the baby would REALLY match his daddy? That might make the point right there.

Keep trying. Keep trying. Keep trying. DH seriously had no idea whether he or his dad were circ'd. And he still doesn't know whether his dad was (I'd guess not, as he was born during WWII). The "Look like me" argument doesn't hold water. When are he and his ds going to be hanging out comparing their privates??

Tell them again why you object to circumcision. Tell them that you insist, because you love them both and will love this child too, that they prove how informed they are by watching these videos with you etc. etc. before making their decision.

Then, if you live in the same town, and know where the anti-circ Peds are - refer them to those Peds as "a good Ped to talk to when you're looking for one for your little one." And hopefully that Ped will be upfront about it at their interview too (ours sure was!).

[Pumpkinheadmommy]

Maybe it's time to reach out to the girlfriend. I always hate that "I'm leaving it up to him, because he's the one with the penis" cop-out.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by Nicole77

Anyway, it goes from here. He doesn't seem to care about any of these things and just thinks that the 1-5% tilt towards circumcision in the most recent numbers (2006) show a statistical enough significance to justify having his son circed. Plus, he freely admits that his largest reason comes back to wanting his son to look like him. I do not know where to go from here and neither does DH. He thinks it may be time to drop it and just reconcile ourselves to this. He thinks that Bil entered into the coversation with his mind already made up and just looking for justification for his decision. When he didn't find it in science he went the "personal decision" route so that he could claim feeling attacked if we disagreed in any way.

The problem here is in the end your BIL is looking at his personal experience. No matter how many facts, stories, charts, graphs, numbers, even crying babies his own personal experiences out way them all. He will always think back to "hey, but I think I'm doing pretty well." Being intact is something he does not trust or understand, because he has no personal experience with it.

You might have to start making more sensitive comments right where the facts and his experience meet. For example, explaining how that really sensitive area of skin above the circ scar use to be a much larger structure that provided greater sensation. Ask him point blank. Even if you were ok, why would you want to take that extra wonderful sensation away from your son, just so you could look like him?

Be a little light hearted and say "If you don't circumcise I promise to buy you matching polo shirts, or swim suits, so you will actually look like a daddy-son duo."

Have you tried the "he is his own person" discussion? That he may not want everything his dad wants, and he should have the chance to grow. (maybe your DH can come up with an example of how BIL viewed something differently then their Dad did, and it was nice to be able to grow in his own direction to find his own interests and his own values).


Basically, as others have said, its time to get personal. Thats where he has taken the discussion and thats where you need to go unfortunately. I can PROMISE you that your nephew will love you guys a lot for doing this for him. Whenever you doubt yourself, keep that in mind and keep moving forward. The discussion is not over until the surgery happens. There is always a chance.

[Kylix]

Ask him whether he wants his son to look him for himself or for his son?

If he is honest with himself, he will see it is for himself. His son is not going to care about his father's penis. His son is not going to be looking at his father's penis. And even if he does, his son's penis will NOT look like his (size, hair, the type of circumcision). I would be very blunt that his putting his son through this to make himself feel better about his penis is unfair and cruel.

I would tell your SIL that this is permanent, painful, cosmetic decision that she needs to wake up and take a part in. And I would try to have her watch a video, if at all possible. She needs to see what her husband is willing to put his son through just so he (her husband) can feel better about himself and his penis.

I'm sorry for what you're going through. I understand why you worry about whether you should back off. It is an ethical issue for a nonconsenting individual so I'm glad you are doing all that you can!!

Kylix

[Nicole77]

We are reading and discussing all of your responses. Crazy busy day over here but I just wanted to say thank you all so much for your ideas and thoughts! I will be back to reply more thoroughly later on. I am so glad to have this forum to go to for help with stuff like this! This is such a tricky topic to handle.

[eepster]

Have you read The Vulnerability of Men. It might help you understand how to aproach this with BIL. You also might want to send it to BIL's GF so she understands why BIL's decision is not based on rational research.

[amy9798]

Have you tried saying something like this to him: I completely understand that you personally prefer an intact penis and you have every right to your opinion. But don't you think that your son has the same right to his own opinion? By circumcising him at birth you're forever taking away any choice he has in the matter. Why not wait and let him make his own decisions about his own genitals.

I've found that this can be effective sometimes when a person's reason to circ is simply that they think a circ'd penis looks better (which is hard to argue with because you can't really change that opinion easily).

Good luck!

[bburnie2]

(((hugs)))

Your in a very difficult position- one I do not envy, but one I have been in.

I don't have much more advice to offer then what others have already said. I just wanted you to know your NOT alone in this and there are many of us who have been in your shoes and have lost loved ones or dear friends over this issue. I recently have been put in the middle of this exact issue with life long friends. Suffice to say- I gave them all the info, they watched Penn and Teller- had the pamphlets, spent hours talking and they still cut. That was it for me. Deal breaker. Other friends in our circle thought I was being a bit over the top by cutting such an old friend out of my life. The way I explained it was simply asking " would you be ok knowing I allowed someone to rape my child? No? Well- I am not ok knowing they allowed something I equate with rape to their child." Its a hard pill to swallow- but its reality. They can deal with it- I don't have it on my shoulders and neither will you.

Honestly- I would rather NOT have given them the info- then they could claim ignorance and I could live with that. The old 'you know better you do better' POV could come into effect. But when someone KNOWS and they STILL go forwards with it- thats simply unforgivable.

((hugs)) You will do whats right by you- whatever that may be.

[hakunangovi]

Nicole, DON'T GIVE UP !!! Like "perspective" said "the discussion is not over 'till the surgery happens". If you give in now, I'm sure that you will live to regret it forever. You will always be wondering what else you might have done.

You have recieved a lot of good advice in this thread. One last tack might be to ask them if they would cut bits off their daughter. When they answer with a horrified "No", you could point out that there are some cultures that view FGM as perfectly acceptable and desirable. It is the lack of logical thinking involved when someone wants to circ their son that is so frustrating.

As a last ditch, eleventh hour approach, "fyrestorms" tactic of threatening to tell your nephew that his parents had all the info and still did it to him might put some fear in their hearts and make them finaly THINK. At that point you don't have a lot to loose.

You are a wonderful person for being so concerned and trying so hard. Kudos to you!!