"Partial Birth Abortion" Ban - Page 2

[Marlena]

Originally posted by isleta

This is the first attack on the right of a woman and her family to choose and another way to force their beliefs on to others. The republicans are really going to go for this one! Clinton vetoed it every time.

Not so. Attacks on the legal right to choose an abortion have been ongoing since early in the 19th century. This is yet another skirmish.

As for the procedure itself, I personally find it absurd that an exceptionally rare procedure, usually performed with respect to non-viable fetuses anyway, would generate the furor and consume the time and energy that this one has. This is particularly so given how pathetically little concern so many of the people who are frothing at the mouth about this issue show towards the impoverished and less-fortunate members of our society once they are actually born. (Note, by the way, that I said "so many", and not "all".)

That being said, although I support the right to choose an abortion, I believe it should be performed in as humane a manner as possible. A D&X, while much better for the physical health of the woman, can hardly be considered "as humane as possible", at least as presently practiced, for the fetus.

[Marlena]

T

Super Pickle!!!

Since you're reading this thread: PLEASE CLEAN OUT YOUR PM BOX!! I've tried to reply to the two PM you sent me in the past couple months, but have had no success either time, as your PM box is always full!

[barbara]

I give respect when and where it is deserved. Not "just becasue".....

MNS, I was refering to respecting the mothers on this board, not the issue. YOu know, having a respectful discussion as per the MDC guidlines. I don't expect you to respect my position, nor I yours, but I would hope that we could all discuss the issues in a respectful way without attacking one another and name calling.

Where I live in Ohio, the Crisis pregnancy centers do extend help to women through pregnancy and beyond. They provide layettes and car seats where needed, help with finding housing and financial assistance, as well as providing childbirth education and breastfeeding information. They offer free pregnancy tests and sympathtic ears available by phone 24/7. Rides to doctor's appointments are provided for those that need them, and safety in battered women's shelters, or private homes, is provided when necessary.

What is it exactly that you would like to see done that is not already being offered by these non-profit organizations?

[mommy2maya]

Originally posted by Marlena

That being said, although I support the right to choose an abortion, I believe it should be performed in as humane a manner as possible. A D&X, while much better for the physical health of the woman, can hardly be considered "as humane as possible", at least as presently practiced, for the fetus.

Can you explain a 'humane' way to kill an innocent child?

Many of us as parents disagree VEHEMENTLY with circumsicion, how horrible it is to disfigure a child, how it should not be allowed. Yet, in the same breath, some say we should be able to kill our unborn babies if we so choose. We say it is not our choice to disfigure our sons- if they want to make the decision to cut off part of their body, well then, when they are older they may make that decision. In the case of abortion, the murdered baby doesn't have the choice to say, HEY! DON'T KILL ME! I WANT TO BE BORN!!

[barbara]

Good question Mary. Seems to me that in this day and age, both the mother and baby can, and should, be treated with medical integrity.

[spero]

Originally posted by mommy2maya
Can you explain a 'humane' way to kill an innocent child?

Many of us as parents disagree VEHEMENTLY with circumsicion, how horrible it is to disfigure a child, how it should not be allowed. Yet, in the same breath, some say we should be able to kill our unborn babies if we so choose. We say it is not our choice to disfigure our sons- if they want to make the decision to cut off part of their body, well then, when they are older they may make that decision. In the case of abortion, the murdered baby doesn't have the choice to say, HEY! DON'T KILL ME! I WANT TO BE BORN!!

well said!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesmom
i have never understood how AP & GD women can be at the same time pro choice. it seems like such a contradiction...[QUOTE]

Yup, I don't get that either

[QUOTE]...a few years back, i heard gianna jessen speak, she is a young woman who miraculously survived her "mother's" abortion, & she travels the country speaking out against it. she was amazing & much more than just the lump of tissue the pro-choice propaganda would make us believe she was.{quote]

I have Gianna's book. It's a beautiful, inspiring, life-affirming story. She's an absolutely amazing young woman.

[joesmom]

Originally posted by mommy2maya
Can you explain a 'humane' way to kill an innocent child?

Many of us as parents disagree VEHEMENTLY with circumsicion, how horrible it is to disfigure a child, how it should not be allowed. Yet, in the same breath, some say we should be able to kill our unborn babies if we so choose. We say it is not our choice to disfigure our sons- if they want to make the decision to cut off part of their body, well then, when they are older they may make that decision. In the case of abortion, the murdered baby doesn't have the choice to say, HEY! DON'T KILL ME! I WANT TO BE BORN!!

my son was circumcised in the hospital, that was before i knew i had a choice. (it sounds dumb but it is true.) the few times i have mentioned his circumcision here i have felt the judgment of many other mamas, whether it was outright or implied.

& yet i am supposed to stand by & not challenge the misconceptions many people have about abortion? you won't allow a dr. to snip off a tiny portion of your child, but you expect all women to have the right to evacuate their womb, for whatever reason? we need to realize it is a baby. NOT random cells & tissue.

we have a prolife pregnancy center in our area too, they provide clothes & carseats etc. the media portrays the prolifers as religious zealots, & ok, some of them are. but most of them are like me, & the other women who have posted here, people whose hearts literally break at the thought of a doctor being given the right to end the life of someone who had the POTENTIAL to accomplish great things.

i am so glad other prolife moms are speaking up. sometimes i feel like i am the only one!

[MotherNatrsSon]

Originally posted by barbara
MNS, I was refering to respecting the mothers on this board, not the issue. YOu know, having a respectful discussion as per the MDC guidlines. I don't expect you to respect my position, nor I yours, but I would hope that we could all discuss the issues in a respectful way without attacking one another and name calling.

Where I live in Ohio, the Crisis pregnancy centers do extend help to women through pregnancy and beyond. They provide layettes and car seats where needed, help with finding housing and financial assistance, as well as providing childbirth education and breastfeeding information. They offer free pregnancy tests and sympathtic ears available by phone 24/7. Rides to doctor's appointments are provided for those that need them, and safety in battered women's shelters, or private homes, is provided when necessary.

What is it exactly that you would like to see done that is not already being offered by these non-profit organizations?

I do not see where I was disrespectful to anyone in this dicussion. My comments have not been directed at any one person and are my opinion. Are you referring to the fundamental xian militantism? That is what I se it as. A group of zealots pushing their way on others. Onward xian soldiers. convert or die. It has been that way for along time and the US is now takng it to new levels, at home and abroad.

I live in OhiO also. I know women here that have gone through the hoops and tricks necessary to get "help". It is a major pita for them to have to go, give people their life history, wait for hours, to get a car seat or whatever. I guess what I mean is support with some sense of dignity for those that ask for it, and not at a "bare minimum" level.

There ae programs, yes but for subsidized housing there is a 8 to 10 moth wait. What are these women to do in the meantime? It gets a little more complex than just having underfunded programs availble that cannot actually meet the need and and having prgrams available that cover everyone that needs.

MNS

[TiredX2]

We're getting a*bit* off track. I'd rather not have an abortion debate, but a debate over "partial birth abortions" GIVEN that abortion is currently legal in this country.

Kay

[TiredX2]

From the responses here, it doesn't seem like there is a logical objection to "partial birth abortions," per se, but more like this is the first step to degrading reproduction rights.

Anyone with a different view, I''d love to hear it!

[~Megan~]

i have never understood how AP & GD women can be at the same time pro choice

I've thought the same thing too. I personally would never have an abortion. I couldn't do it. To me if I am pregnant that is a child and I could never kill my child. I can respect that some women choose to abort for medical or rape reasons. I would carry a child that was the result of rape or that had genetic problems. But I know that not all people can do that.
What really makes me sad are the people who abort because of "accidental" pregnancy. My wish is that they never got pregnant to start with. And I think that issue needs to be addressed before we can start to come to a better compromise in regards to abortion.

I have a question for those who are pro-choice. Often times I hear the arguement that the government shouldn't make moral decisions for people. But it is done is several other cases. Rape is illegal. Some people may not feel that rape is wrong. Other kinds of murder are illegal but again some people don't think they are wrong if they kill someone.
What is the difference between the gov't making a moral decision on abortion and rape?

[MotherNatrsSon]

Originally posted by joesmom
my son was circumcised in the hospital, that was before i knew i had a choice. (it sounds dumb but it is true.) the few times i have mentioned his circumcision here i have felt the judgment of many other mamas, whether it was outright or implied.

& yet i am supposed to stand by & not challenge the misconceptions many people have about abortion? you won't allow a dr. to snip off a tiny portion of your child, but you expect all women to have the right to evacuate their womb, for whatever reason? we need to realize it is a baby. NOT random cells & tissue.

we have a prolife pregnancy center in our area too, they provide clothes & carseats etc. the media portrays the prolifers as religious zealots, & ok, some of them are. but most of them are like me, & the other women who have posted here, people whose hearts literally break at the thought of a doctor being given the right to end the life of someone who had the POTENTIAL to accomplish great things.

i am so glad other prolife moms are speaking up. sometimes i feel like i am the only one!

That is part of the problem. The fetus is "part" of the mother and not a separate entity until it is born. Are you saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body? Are you saying the mother has no rights as soon as she becomes pregnant and the only rights that matter at that point are those of the fetus?

I would have to give the benefit of the doubt here to an adult female and believe that she is capable of making a choice about her body. Comaprig that to circumcision of a baby that is no longer part of the mother, as in literally inside of her, is an apples and oranges comparison.

do you think any reasonable person, in this case female, would chose an abortion if she really did not have to?

I do understand there are those that "abuse" this and use it for birth control, but those instances are in the minority.

MNS

[TiredX2]

C'mon, C'mon, back on topic:

NOT would you have an abortion?

BUT, should "partial birth abortion" be illegal?

[spero]

I won't make any apologies for being pro-life. If you want to label me a "religious zealot", fine. I'll take that label over "supporter of in-utero infanticide" any day.

I have seen a 12-week old aborted fetus in the (torn-apart) flesh, thrown in a sink like so much garbage. Don't tell me that child didn't suffer. Don't try to make me believe that it is anything even resembling humane to allow a child to have its head born and then stabbed with scissors so its brain can be sucked out. You will never convince me that abortion (in any form, at any time) is anything less than an absolute horror.

I will agree that there is a tremendous need for WAY better support programs for mothers who need them. But brutally killing their unborn (or partially born) babies is not the answer.

[barbara]

MNS, I'm sorry that your friends were not treated with dignity, but at least assistance was available to them and that is more than what the pro-choice folks are offering.

Pro-Lifer's in general do not care about the mother. The fetus is the all important object. They deny the right of the womena whose body the fetus is part of, the ability to make these very difficult choices for herself. Between her and her maker.

This is the quote I was refering to when I suggested that we all speak respectfully to one another. I guess that as a pro-lifer I felt this was not a respectful way to make your point. Perhaps your point is a valid one in speaking about politicians, or even some in leadership or the fringe of the pro-life movement. However, to make a blanket statment that "Pro-lifer's in general do not care about the mother" is hurtful and simply not true, as I have already pointed out.

[PurplePixiePooh]

I think it is wonderful and a long time overdue. Those CHILDREN needed someone to stand up for their lives and refuse to MURDER them.

I think all abortion should be illegal and prosecutable by law as the murder it is.

Like me don't like me I don't care. Truth is truth. If it wan't a baby, you weren't pregnant and if it wasn't alive then why if left alone would it have been born into a baby????

[MotherNatrsSon]

Originally posted by TiredX2
C'mon, C'mon, back on topic:

NOT would you have an abortion?

BUT, should "partial birth abortion" be illegal?

OK. Smply put "NO" and more than likely this won't last long when put to a constittional test either. The appeals and court battles to ensue. In the meantime women suffer as a result of it.

Like has been mentioned in the thread, these types of abortin are not the "average" and are usually only done in extreme circumstances where the mothe is at risk or the fetus is not viable anyway.

MNS

[TiredX2]

BUT, how about this ban on a specific medical proceedure that the vast majority of the time is performed on a non-viable fetus? Should congress decide it is unnecessary or should DOCTORS be able to practice?

I think you know where I stand.

[barbara]

oops I guess I posted while all of you were posting....

Sorry TiredX2, I'll try to keep my comments on topic.

NOT would you have an abortion?
BUT, should "partial birth abortion" be illegal?

Well, as another poster put it, there really isn't "anything even resembling humane to allow a child to have its head born and then stabbed with scissors so its brain can be sucked out."

I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this. Why not simply allow the baby to be born? If the fetus is viable then allow it to be adopted if not wanted. If the fetus is not viable then it won't survive and the end result is the same as if you had killed the child during birth as is currently done in the partial birth abortion.

[Marlena]

D & X should not be illegal. However, I also believe that, ethically, it should not be performed, at least unless the fetus is first killed through a lethal injection or through another, less violent and pain-producing, means.

That is as far as I can go in responding to the folks who responded to my first post, without taking this off-topic.

Again, let us please keep in mind that virtually all of the pregnancies ended through D&X either involve a non-viable fetus (ie, the fetus will either die naturally before birth, or will not be able to survive for more than days or weeks following birth - the latter is the case with anencephalic babies, for example), or a case in which the woman's life is in jeopardy and she is faced either with continuing the pregnancy and likely having both her and the fetus die, or getting treatment and having the fetus die.

No one FORCES anyone to get a D&X. There are other methods of abortion, even at that late stage. And if the issue is the life/health of the woman rather than that of the fetus, the fetus can be induced or born through c-section, even if it may not be likely to survive.