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"Partial Birth Abortion" Ban - Page 3

post #41 of 175
Quote:
It would seem to me clear as daylight that abortion would be a crime. --Gandhi
post #42 of 175
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I'm not sure why anyone would want to do this. Why not simply allow the baby to be born?
Well, in the case of severe hydroencephalitus (spelling) the diameter of the head is up to 20" and so CANNOT be vaginally delievered. The mother can either have a c-section or a "partial birth abortion."

If there are severe medical abnormalities found after about 20 weeks (missing brain, etc...) and the parents do not want to wait 20 more months for a stillbirth, they are encouraged to get an abortion. BUT, these are parents who very often really wanted a baby. In a "classical" abortion the results are scraps of bloody body parts, in a partial birth abortion, the parents can be helped through their grieving process by being able to hold the much longed for baby (the baby can be wrapped in a blanket and held, looket at etc...) and start the letting go process. It is supposed to make a horrible situation a bit easier on these grief stricken people. There are also advantages if the parents want to donate organs and such (in the case of no brain development beyond brain stem, the transplant team can be there ready and it can be more controled) and try to make something positive out of a tragedy.

The vast majority of "social" abortions occur before 12 weeks, partial birth abortions are generally only given in extream situation with much trepidation, agony and grief.
post #43 of 175
If the parents want to hold thier baby and grieve then why would they want the doctor to stab the baby as it is being born. Why not simply give them the baby and allow them to hold this non-viable baby as it dies? Why is c-section so acceptable for mothers of full term babies but those with enlarged heads that will not be viable need to be killed and cut up so that the mother doesn't have to have a c-sec?????

I'm not getting this. Why does the baby have to be killed during birth? Even if the mother is induced why does the child have to be stabbed and cut up??

Of course we want to save the mother's life, but for pete's sake why can't we be humane to the child in the process??

Quote:
It would seem to me clear as daylight that abortion would be a crime. --Gandhi
post #44 of 175
Thread Starter 
Why should a mother HAVE to have major abdominal surgery to allow a child to be born alive that can't live?
post #45 of 175
Quote:
Originally posted by TiredX2
The vast majority of "social" abortions occur before 12 weeks, partial birth abortions are generally only given in extream situation with much trepidation, agony and grief.
I don't believe that. Do you have objective stats to back up that statement?
post #46 of 175
The predition is that the PBA ban will be overturned by the Supreme Court because it does not contain a provision to protect the life of the mother.

I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.

--AmyB
post #47 of 175
I just heard the co-author of this bill from OhiO on NPR say that more legislation restricting abortion is already "in the works". This is just a "first step".

MNS
post #48 of 175
totally agree w/ Celestial. if this HAS to take place (I have doubts that it would ever HAVE to take place), at least make it as painless as possible for the baby...
post #49 of 175
My opinion, and this will go a bit OT since I really want to address what Barbara is saying about crisis preg. centers.

I think that it's gross and wrong to have a partial birth abortion BUT in the medically necessary cases mentioned above, they should absolutely have that right.....though I wonder the same thing as Celestial- why can't they stop the heart before the actual procedure? So, imo, if it's medically necessary it should be legal. But, if it isn't, I don't agree with it. Just my opinion.


About crisis preg centers- I've been thinking about them alot lately because I really want to start one in my area. I feel that there are women who are scared/poor/confused, etc. that would certainly choose keeping the baby over having an abortion if they had help (both emotional and financial) from caring people at a crisis preg. center. That being said, the majority of centers that I'm aware of seem to offer mimimal financial assistance; and what help is offered has tons of strings attached, usually in the form of religion being shoved down the mom's throat. Now, I'm not anti religion, or anti Christianity; and I don't care if a preg center preaches or anything. BUT, a lot only offer help if the women start going to meetings or church or such; and if a family "takes in" a pregnant woman, they are again, usually very religious and force it on the woman. I say this not as a generalization; Ive seen it. One woman I know who did this (took in pregnant women, not teens but adults) had curfews for the moms, they HAD to go to church and bible study, and couldn't have men over at all. Now, I can agree with not wanting a buch of guys over your house, but curfews and "morality" standards for a grown woman, come on!!! The local crisis preg center doesn't give things away, the women have to earn them by earning what they call "mommie bucks"; each time the woman shows up for a parenting class, appointment, BIBLE STUDY, etc, they get $1 in mommie bucks. The can then spend them at the "store"; outfits are 1-2 dollars, car seats are 10; A heck of alot of crap to go through for used clothes and car seats. And ime, these women are also encouraged to give their babies up for adoption instead of keeping them.

So, my rambling point is that crisis preg centers don't help the way they need to. What would work is offering free clothes, strollers, cribs, etc; parenting/breastfeeding info; and most importantly- helping these women financially- and that can be as simple as helping them apply for state health care, welfare, food stamps, housing, etc. Many women aren't informed about their options, and if they had someone helping them maybe they could get some help and actually make it.

Ugh. I'm sorry, I do believe that crisis preg centers are well intended, but are pushing their own agenda; and to say "Well, they can get help there" is such a cop out. A few free outfits doesn't help pay the bills.

Sorry for rambling; this is my issue at the moment; I'd really like to start a "REAL" crisis preg center someday


Kristi
post #50 of 175
Quote:
Originally posted by Celestial
Out of curiosity:
Why, if there is a need to have a late term abortion for medical reasons, CAN'T the medical personel administer a drug to stop the baby's heart beating BEFORE the procedure? Or do something else to allow for a more "humane" death before removing the baby from the uterus?
Yes. But I understand that it's not always done. As I've said, it absolutely MUST be done, IMO, in order to bring the practice within the ethical pale.
post #51 of 175
My sister ended a pregnancy at 15 weeks, with unbelievable agony and heartache. It was a very much wanted child, but tragically, it was not viable. She was told by her doctors that there was actual danger to her own life if she would carry to term, and the baby would never live. Very sorrowfully, she and my bil decided to terminate.

I am aghast that there is no provision in the law for something of this kind.
post #52 of 175
Quote:
I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.
Sad, but true!
post #53 of 175
Quote:
Originally posted by MotherNatrsSon
Are you saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body?

do you think any reasonable person, in this case female, would chose an abortion if she really did not have to?
MNS
i am not saying that an adult female should have no choice in making a decision about something that IS part of her body. if she wants to cut off her leg, or her arm, fine. but when she has an abortion she is not only deciding about HER body. she is also deciding about the body of her own CHILD, tearing it out of the place it should have been safe & warm & protected.

& are you seriously asking me if i think a reasonable woman has ever had an abortion that she did not HAVE to have? um, yes. nearly 5,000 times a day, i believe.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by TiredX2
Why should a mother HAVE to have major abdominal surgery to allow a child to be born alive that can't live?

why should the mother be afforded more rights than the child? most of us here, i would say at least 90%, are ADAMANT that it is a child's BIRTHRIGHT to be nourished, for as long as he wants, by the milk from his mother's breasts. & yet you can advocate abortion, saying the mother has the RIGHT to control HER body. what if a mother just doesn't want to use HER breasts to feed her infant?

i am genuinely confused.

HOWEVER, to answer the OP, yes, i think partial birth abortion should be illegal. i think 2nd trimester abortion should be illegal. i think having an abortion when you are one week pregnant should be illegal.

but that is just me. i realize i am in the minority. but i am here.
post #54 of 175

here are some statistics

In the US each day, there are 4,000 abortions.

Every fourth unborn child is aborted.

An unborn baby is killed every 20 seconds in America.

95% of abortions are done as birth control, 1% are done because of rape/incest, 1% because of fetal abnormalities, and 3% due to the mother's health problems.


(In a book written about abortions due to rape,...) 192 women were interviewed. These women had had abortions after they became pregnant from rape. Nearly all the women said that they regretted the abortion, and over 90% said they would discourage other rape victims from choosing abortion.

Child abuse has gone up 500% since the legalization of abortion.

Out of all women who have abortions, 75% say they had an abortion because the baby would have interfered with their life; 66% say that they couldn't have afforded a baby; and 50% said they didn't want to be a single mother or were having problems with their partner.

14,000 abortions are done because of rape/incest. (This only makes up about 1% of all abortions.)

23% of abortions occur at 9-10 weeks, 11% at 11-12 weeks, 7% at 13-15 weeks, 4% at 16-20 weeks, and 1% for 21-40 weeks.


read this. do you feel like crying? if not, READ IT AGAIN!
post #55 of 175
Sources?
post #56 of 175
Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention & The Allen Guttmacher Institute
post #57 of 175
Quote:
Originally posted by joesmom
Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention & The Allen Guttmacher Institute
Please post the link?

Another interesting little anecdote rom NPR tonight. They said that the less education a woman had, the more likely she was to support this ban.

Hmmm....

MNS
post #58 of 175
***
post #59 of 175
Quote:
Originally posted by me&3
My sister ended a pregnancy at 15 weeks, with unbelievable agony and heartache. It was a very much wanted child, but tragically, it was not viable. She was told by her doctors that there was actual danger to her own life if she would carry to term, and the baby would never live. Very sorrowfully, she and my bil decided to terminate.

I am aghast that there is no provision in the law for something of this kind.
Not eager to get into this debate. But the law would not have affected your sister in the slightest. It specifically prohibits one procedure, which AFAIK is not used at 15 weeks.

Unfortunately the media is hyping this up to be the end of all abortions, or even the end to all late term abortions. Can't imagine why they'd want to do that. : It's not. Read the law:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c108umnmPa::

The specific ban is on procedures in which:

Quote:
the person performing the abortion --
`(A) deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother, for the purpose of performing an overt act that the person knows will kill the partially delivered living fetus; and
`(B) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus
post #60 of 175
Quote:
I find the pro-lifers' support of this bill morally repugnant and horrifying. I can not immagine anything more evil than being willing to kill a woman for the sake of rigid adherance to pro-life ideology.
Amen!!!
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