DH needs "unbiased" scientific support of HSing...

[boysmom2]

So, I finally brought up the idea of hsing with him the other night. He said he's open to considering it, but he's still mostly against it. I had printed a bunch of articles for him (from links on MDC), but he doesn't think those "count" since they're all by pro-homeschooling people. So, he needs independent research, not anything by "homeschooling-r-us.com." (His words - can you tell he's not really for this idea?)

Anyway, he's mostly concerned about socialization and independence. He said that hs kids are "weird," and so he needs to be convinced otherwise. He's formed this opinion based upon one family that he knows from work. They hs and the guy brought his kids in one day. DH met them and thought they were odd. (He couldn't really define "odd" for me.) His other example was when you see hs kids on TV, like in a spelling bee. He claims that anytime there's an "odd" kid on there, sure enough they turn out to be hs. Also, 2 of his cousins are hsed. They ARE kind of strange, but so are their parents and I'm sure the kids would be that way regardless of how they were schooled.

I don't mean to offend anyone here with these comments. DH really doesn't know much about hsing, and he really just wants the best for our dcs. He's a scientific guy, and he really needs data to back up a decision, not just anecdotes and essays.

Anyway, I'm searching on my own for articles, but I thought I'd ask here too. Thanks!

[eclipse]

I don't have any great links for you (I'm sure others might), but I think you should also ask your husband to do the research and show you that public schooled kids turn out fine, and not weird.

[hippiemommaof4]

I was in public school my whole life almost and you know what I did for socializing
skipped class
smoked in the bathroom
we were teased and fought with so we teased and fought back
smoked pot
and other stuff.
worried about what nice clothing other kids had that we didnt.
we all turned out ok but thats what we did in pblic school

I also remember a girl telling me she hated me in kindy for having the same lunch box and getting other kids to tease me. I was a beautiful little girl too and it broke my heart.

In junior high people teased me constantly a lot of the same people who did it elementry.


My husband was a really short lil guy and got the hell beat out of him in school just for being small and he also got picked on a lot as well.

I'm not telling you this to sway you either way but you never know. I dont have the links but I can guarentee you that it wont happen to your kids if they are homeschooled and granted it might not happen to your kids in public but the chances of something happening and other people being a negative influence on your child are extremely high.

[LilyGrace]

Try offering him The Well Adjusted Child

or this paper from the Fraser Institute

[4evermom]

He might like Dumbing Us Down by Gatto because it was written by an experienced teacher. It doesn't address socialization and homeschoolers but talks about the role of school for society being for the good of corporations rather than the good of the individual, to make a working class. Not my dream for my child!

[oceanbaby]

Ask him if he seriously, in all his school years, never had a weird kid in one of his classes. Chances are he had a lot of them.

But honestly, I do know what he's saying. We homeschool, and I think there are some weird homeschooled kids. But my experience has been that it's due a combination of factors:

"Weird" kids are more likely to have problems in school, so their parents are more likely to pull them out and homeschool them. Gifted children can often seem weird, for instance.

Parents who make alternative lifestyle decisions in general may often be "weird," and therefore have "weird" children. Dh and I are really "normal" yuppie people, on the outside. You could never pick us out of a crowd as the "weirdos" who homebirth, nurse 3 year olds, cosleep, or homeschool. Same goes for our kids. But it goes the other way too. Parents who don't care about superficial things like clothing or hairstyles will often have kids who have awkward clothing or hairstyles, whether they homeschool or not.

Homeschooling, imo, doesn't make you weird, it let's you be weird. So a little boy who is homeschooled can wear pink shoes and play with fairy dolls simply because he likes them, whereas in school he would learn quickly to hide it or that there is something wrong with it. (Although at a certain age he's going to learn this even if he's homeschooled, just from playgrounds and general interaction with other kids. My son loved his long hair, but finally cut it because he was tired of other kids telling him that long hair was for girls.)

Some adults can be put off my little kids who are really direct and super comfortable talking to adults, which in my experience a lot of homeschooled kids are. The adults are used to a certain kind of interaction with school aged kids, and when they experience a child who interacts differently with them, rather than appreciate it they feel weirded out by it.

[Arduinna]

What's wrong with being odd or strange anyway?

If your dh is as much of a science geek as is implied in your post, he has to be at least a little bit strange. Or is the real issue conformity? Is he basically a conformist and uncomfortable with anything that it outside the norm?

[AnnR33]

I second him reading Dumbing Us Down-very good for helping people see why public school isn't so great and the only option.

There is also a newer book (in the last 2 yrs) called The Well-Adjusted Child (I think this is right) that is about kids that are homeschooled and how they turn out just fine It's mostly preaching to the choir but would be good for someone that needs to see that hs kids are not isolated hermits.

And I agree with the above poster who asks "can he say he's never met a weird kid in public school?" I mean really....kids are weird all over the place-public school, private school, home school-what does it matter? We're all a bit weird in our own way.

[Callimom]

Have you read Family Matters by David Guterson? At the time he wrote the book he was a high school teacher and a homeschooling father. He writes about his interactions with students and watching the process of them becoming schooled rather than educated. He relays conversations he has with his father who doesn't want his grandchildren to be homeschooled and the points on both sides of that arguement. It is an excellent book and because it is written by a homeschooling father and teacher, it seems to hold a lot of credibility with dads.

[weliveintheforest]

I don't have any articles handy but I enjoyed reading Real Lives: Eleven Teenagers Who Don't Go to School Tell Their Own Stories because it contains their stories as teenagers, and then an update on them 10 years later, to show you how they 'turned out'.

I also might ask him to show you an unbiased study that says kids who go to school are better off, because he might be surprised he doesn't find them.

[beka1977]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

Ask him if he seriously, in all his school years, never had a weird kid in one of his classes. Chances are he had a lot of them.

But honestly, I do know what he's saying. We homeschool, and I think there are some weird homeschooled kids. But my experience has been that it's due a combination of factors:

"Weird" kids are more likely to have problems in school, so their parents are more likely to pull them out and homeschool them. Gifted children can often seem weird, for instance.

Parents who make alternative lifestyle decisions in general may often be "weird," and therefore have "weird" children. Dh and I are really "normal" yuppie people, on the outside. You could never pick us out of a crowd as the "weirdos" who homebirth, nurse 3 year olds, cosleep, or homeschool. Same goes for our kids. But it goes the other way too. Parents who don't care about superficial things like clothing or hairstyles will often have kids who have awkward clothing or hairstyles, whether they homeschool or not.

Homeschooling, imo, doesn't make you weird, it let's you be weird. So a little boy who is homeschooled can wear pink shoes and play with fairy dolls simply because he likes them, whereas in school he would learn quickly to hide it or that there is something wrong with it. (Although at a certain age he's going to learn this even if he's homeschooled, just from playgrounds and general interaction with other kids. My son loved his long hair, but finally cut it because he was tired of other kids telling him that long hair was for girls.)

Some adults can be put off my little kids who are really direct and super comfortable talking to adults, which in my experience a lot of homeschooled kids are. The adults are used to a certain kind of interaction with school aged kids, and when they experience a child who interacts differently with them, rather than appreciate it they feel weirded out by it.

Where do you live? Can we hang out?

I agree with all of this... I think that my son will be more "mainstream" being homeschooled then he would be if he attended our local Waldorf.

I think homeschooled kids can seem a little, or a lot, strange when they are kids. They are more themselves. Yet as adults, isn't this exactly what we want them to be? My children do not act like school children - because they are not school children! However they are fabulous people to hang out with in almost any situation.

There are a lot of things that swirl about in schools - drugs, gangs, sex, alcohol abuse, bullying, eating disorders, violence - these things are all "normal" but they are not what I want for my kids. I am willing to risk odd. Have you heard the old homeschooling joke: "What about socialization? Oh, well, I have that all taken care of. Everyday I steal his lunch money, tell him to sit still and be quiet, then I kick his ass behind the school building."

I might also suggest reading some of John Holt's books. He was a teacher and writes about natural learning. His book are very inspiring - they suck you right in - then you realize that the only way it will work is to homeschool.

[beka1977]

I have been thinking some more about this and I would really recommend The Well -Adjusted Child by Rachel Gathercole. She is very even in her evaluations, and starts by saying that she comes from the same perspective as your DH. Plus she has a lot of good works cited.

[Melaine]

While I understand why he may say homeschooled children are "weird", I think he needs to re-think that generalization for a couple reasons. Making generalizations about homeschooling is really ridiculous because the range of reasons for hsing, methods of hsing, and results of hsing are COMPLETELY dependent on each family, the parents and the kids and the choices they make. Which is why I think it comes down to: do you want someone else (ie teachers and their peers) educating your kids the way they see fit, or do you (who love and care about them and their future the most) want to educate them yourself? Sounds like your DH would make a great hsing dad because he is really interested and involved in your kids and is willing to look at the evidence in order to make a great choice for them.
I was hsed k-12th, went on to graduate from college, and am completely socially acceptable now as a wife and mother
I had lots of friends growing up from private and public schools and many who were also homeschooled. The socialization argument against hsing is so outdated. There are a myriad of opportunities available to homeschool students now. I did sports, clubs, went to the prom, field trips, projects, contests, and spoke at our graduation in front of hundreds of people....and that was in the 90's! There are so many fabulous resources out there now, there is no reason to fear poor socialization.
Sorry my post is completely unscientific, but I know the info is available, hopefully some one else can hook you up!

[MommyMichele]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

Have you read Family Matters by David Guterson?

I second this book recommendation. It helped my husband feel more comfortable with the idea of homeschooling.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by boysmom2

DH really doesn't know much about hsing, and he really just wants the best for our dcs. He's a scientific guy, and he really needs data to back up a decision, not just anecdotes and essays.

You need to help him understand that things like this simply can't be measured and/or evaluated by research, independent or otherwise. It's the end of a busy day, and my mind is a bit mushy, but here are some articles to look through. Oh! And I third the Guterson and Gatto book recommendations, by the way!!!

Did home schooling
Editorial in The Times (New Jersey)
About how William F. Buckley benefitted from homeschooling.

What it takes to be a homeschool parent
The View from the Bay - ABC

Homeschool Recruiting: Lessons Learned on the Journey (Journal of College Admission)
[Excerpt: Research showed that our homeschooled students had above-average SAT and ACT scores (1210 and 29 respectively). They also performed better academically. They had a combined cumulative grade point average of 3.47, compared to the 2.91 shared by the general
student population. Through semi-structured interviews, I found they were also doing well socially.]

In a Class by Themselves (in Stanford Magazine)

Homeschooled Applicants Attractive to Top Liberal Arts Colleges, Admission Officers Say (University of Richmond)

Public universities increasingly easing application policies for homeschoolers (Associated Press)

Colleges Coveting Home-Schooled Students (CBS News)

The Local Angle: SCAD adapts recruitment strategies for homeschooled students (Savanah College of Art and Design)

Learning away from home: Home-schoolers adjust to UT (The Daily Texan - serving the University of Texas at Austin)

Colleges in Missouri are recruiting home-schooled students

From Home to Harvard (Time Magazine)

Homeschoolers are at home at Harvard (Harvard Crimson) - an older article about the Colfaxes while they were there.

Will think more on this and post again later. - Lillian

[Flor]

When I was a teen I worked at a YMCA summer camp. I thought the HS kids and the kids who went to the hippie alternative school were "weird." Now when I look back as an adult and a parent, I would love those kids. They didn't conform to the norm, they didn't care so much about clothes and hair and lunch boxes, they didn't act like characters they'd seen on Nickelodon. They were a bit more innocent. How sad that I thought they were "weird." I also think your dh should think about what it means to be weird and what it means to conform.

I'm a middle school teacher and my son goes to a private Montessori. Out of 40 kids, 8 of them have parents who are public school teachers. We see what the classroom has become. In the last few years I've seen knives in the classroom, school shooting threats on the locker room walls, kids having sex in the bathroom, bullying (of course), a girl get her teeth broken when her face was smashed into the water foutain, kids high in class, kids drinking cough syrup in the bathrooms, kids crying because they were overweight and had to change in the locker room, kids being carted off campus in handcuffs. . . so, yes all this is normal in my smallish town! But why would I want all that?

[LauraN]

I'm glad other PPs have given you links. But I have to say this because it's a pet peeve of mine. If your DH is so "scientific" why is he working from some very subjective stereotypes? Can you help him understand that "weird" is in the eyes of the beholder and that your children are likely to end up totally normal to YOU regardless of how they're schooled? Seriously.

I'm sure to my very, very mainstream community my kids are "weird" because they've all been breastfed for so long. I know my in-laws think we're weird for setting up beds for our kids in our bedroom instead of forcing them to sleep alone in their rooms. I'm sure many people we know think we're weird for homeschooling instead of putting our kids in preschool from the time they're two.

But "I" don't think my kids are weird at all. I think my kids are fantastic individuals. And won't you and your DH always think the same about your kids?

What does "weird" even mean except "not like me" or "not like what I consider to be normal." But your kids can't be anything other than what you consider normal because they're yours and you're raising them. How is a schooling method going to change that?

"Weird" and "normal" are so subjective that it doesn't even make sense to imagine that any one particular experience in life could tip the scale from one to the other.

[Lillian J]

more articles

Here's the interview HEM did with Susan Ohanian, the former public
school teacher who has that information packed website objecting to
current educational policies.

[Freelance writer Susan Ohanian, interviewed for HEM by Ohio
homeschooling leader Peggy Daly Masternak, has authored over twenty
books on education, including such classics as What Happened to Recess
and Why Are Our Children Struggling in Kindergarten?, One Size Fits
Few: The Folly of Educational Standards, and her latest title, co-
authored with Kathy Emery, Why Is Corporate America Bashing Our Public
Schools? She maintains an award-winning web site showcasing her strong
stand against high stakes testing and her resistance to standards-
based curricula. For further biographical information see the sidebar
at the end of the interview.]

UC Riverside Welcomes Homeschool Students
A new program allows admission through an assessment of a student
portfolio


Home schooled teen accepted by Harvard, Yale, more

[Excerpt: "There's a built-in conflict of interest when the person
evaluating your performance is Mom or Dad," said Barmak Nassirian of
the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions
Officers. Still, many admissions officials say they are becoming more at ease with applicants who took alternative paths, if for no other reason
than it's a booming market. Almost 2 million American students are
educated at home, and more than 80 percent of colleges have formal
policies for assessing these applicants—up from 52 percent in 2000.
While the pool has expanded, so has home-schoolers' savvy about how to
package themselves, said Christopher Watson, dean of undergraduate
admissions at NU, where the number of such applicants has doubled
since 2002.

"We haven't changed the way we review applications, but the way home-
schoolers are submitting applications has changed," he said. "They've
become very good at taking out the question marks."] An article from 2001:
Home Is Where the School Is: The number of homeschooled children has tripled over the past decade, leading to workplace changes as these
children make their way into the workforce
(HR Magazine - Provides tips, techniques and case studies on all
aspects of employee development)

[Excerpt: To find reliable employees, Chick-fil-A prefers to tap what it believes is a unique source of talent -- high school and college-age
homeschoolers -- young people who have been educated at home rather than sent to public or private schools. "They're smart, ambitious and very
driven," Lorenzen says of his homeschooled employees. "They have a
high level of loyalty to the business, are diligent and have a good
work ethic." A nine-year HR veteran at Chick-fil-A, Lorenzen's success
depends on the quality of his hires. "When it comes to homeschoolers,
I've only heard good things from our restaurant operators who employ
them." Chick-fil-A may be on to something. Homeschoolers are popping
up everywhere, moving seamlessly into college and the workplace,
thriving in internships and in entry-and professional-level jobs.
They're also making a mark as entrepreneurs.] -Lillian

[Melaine]

Oh that's good Lillian,
I just wanted to add that my parents decided to homeschool their children because they were both public school teachers. That is a really very common, and that says a whole lot in my opinion.

[Amy in NH]

The level of certification, education, or regulation of homeschoolers nationwide has not been shown to have any appreciable effect on the achievement of homeschooled students, which is consistently 20-40 percentile points higher than publicly schooled students. From the US Department of Education (http://www.uhea.org/stats.html)

Although more than 85 percent of teachers engaged in home schooling have never been certified, their students score higher on average than their peers in public schools. http://www.ncpa.org/pi/edu/aug98e.html

“Home school students scored significantly higher than their public and private school counterparts, in every subject and at every grade level of the ITBS and TAP batteries. Studies prove homeschool students do exceptionally well when compared with the nationwide average.” From the National Home Education Research Institute
(http://homeschoolinformation.com/hom...tatistics1.htm)

“Socially, studies also show homeschoolers mature and better socialized than are those sent to school. Dr. John Wesley Taylor's nationwide study revealed that the self-concept of home school students was significantly higher than that of public school students for the global and all six subscales of the Piers-Harris Self-Concept Scale. The Galloway-Sutton Study (performed in 1997), showed that from five success indicators (academic, cognitive, spiritual, affective-social and psychomotor), comparing with public and private schooled students, "in every success category except psychomotor, the home school graduates excelled above the other students." (http://homeschoolinformation.com/hom...tatistics1.htm)

Table depicting achievement levels of home educated versus public schooled children based on their parent’s education. Although the level of parental education does affect public school student achievement levels, it does not affect home-educated student achievement levels. From Home School Legal Defense Association http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray1997/07.asp

A really nice graph to cut/paste/print at home: http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray1997/07.asp

Check out NHERI for homeschool statistics http://www.nheri.org/