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post #41 of 45
MNS.. can you link to those stats by any chance? Because I suspect that the 71% is still a far lower number than the 15%... and that there are far more children living in poverty because of non-paying dads than non-paying moms. If I am mistaken I would like to know. If I am right then I don't see that it is male bashing to discuss that. I know that you are correct when you say that some men are ordered to pay more than they make and that paying child support is a huge financial burden but I am not convinced that enough people of either gender put paying for their non-custodial children ahead of their own needs.
post #42 of 45
This is a fascinating thread..

I am very much pro-choice, mostly because I can't afford to adopt unwanted children. If I could solve the problem, I'd probably be pro-life.

Greaseball: Girls do not get pregnant on their own, but it's not always the boy who initiates sex. Teenaged girls frequently initiate sex because they want something small and cute to dress in fancy outfits and to love them unconditionally. You could argue that it's a self-esteem issue; I'd probably even agree with you, but you can't say that young teenaged girls never deliberately get pregnant. It's just not true.

The high school I went to had a (free) day care center (only) for students that was very nice. It was run by the YWCA and had a very long waiting list. Before the day care center, they sent pregnant girls to a separate school once they started to show; someone realized that a lot of girls went to the school only to drop out after the baby was born, and thus the day care program was begun.

I've also seen commercials on TV where a young man promises his girlfriend that he will "respect you as a human being and never pressure you to do anything you're not ready to do, especially when it comes to sex." There are "girl" ones too, but I can't remember what she says.

At the library, I noticed a sign and some pamphlets about National Adoption Month and picked up one of everything. I learned that you don't actually need a lot of money to adopt domestically; in many cases, fees for the home study, court costs, and other fees may be reimbursed, sometimes in their entirety.

The Pennsylvania Fatherhood initiative runs commercials and classes for young men & teenaged boys teaching them about contraception, what rape and statutory rape are, and what it means to be more than a sperm donor. They talk about how important it is for all men to be active in their children's lives, and why they should not only pay child support but be a physical presence and never demean their children's mothers in any way, especially not in front of their children.

I can't say that I've ever really thought of Lancaster Pennsylvania as being a very progressive place, but I suppose that in this regard it really is. The number of abortions, children in the foster care system, and unwed teenaged parents have all been dropping steadily in the area for about 10 years. I guess someone's doing something right.

What would I like to see? Parenting classes offered to younger students and to teens who are not already pregnant or parenting. We had parenting classes at my high school, but you had to be pregnant or parenting (boys took the classes too.) From what I understand, most places don't even have that. I think that if kids knew what they were getting themselves into, they'd be more inclined to listen when people talk about birth control and respecting their bodies.

Sex ed needs to happen earlier in schools. Girls are getting pregnant in 5th and 6th grade, and many of them have no idea how it happened. Myths like "you can't get pregnant the first time" and "if you stand up right away, you can't get pregnant" abound, and they are frequently believed by young girls. In my senior year sex ed class (and this was just my class of 35 kids) there were *four* pregnant or parenting girls, and two boys whose girlfriends were expecting (their) babies. And that's only the ones who sat near enough for me to talk to them or overhear their conversations. This business of closing the barn door after the horse is gone is totally not helpful.

I'd like for WIC to run cooking classes, and to continue to support breastfeeding mothers after 12 months. I'd also like to be able to buy reduced fat peanut butter and soy milk on WIC, but I could start a whole new thread on that! Teenaged girls can give birth to huge, full-term babies, but they need to know how to eat, and why. Telling them to drink milk every day doesn't do much alone; showing them pictures of babies whose mothers ate well and babies whose mothers did not will. Teaching them how to prepare a nutritious meal for themselves and their children would go a long way towards making them feel more competent as parents.

I'd like to emphasize again that I think the most important way to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies/children is education, and at a much younger age. A story to illustrate: Last year, my niece was in Kindergarten. One afternoon on the playground, a kindergarten boy and a first grade boy held her arms while another kindergarten boy kicked her repeatedly in the shins. She did not tell her teacher, the principal, or the playground monitor. She did not tell her mother or her grandmother when she got home. She went upstairs and changed into playclothes, and that's when my mother saw her legs. "Oh", she said "some boys kicked me at school" and out came the whole story.

Now, girls don't get pregnant by being kicked in the shins, but my points are thus:

1. Boys are being taught that violence, against girls in particular, is necessary/appropriate.
2. Girls are taught that their pain is unimportant.
3. Girls agree that when boys perpetrate violent acts against them, they should just keep their mouths shut.

Does this have something to do with her mother being 15 when she was born? Not exactly, but her mother's never had great self esteem either. My niece watches her parents fight, berate, and cheat on one another constantly; they refuse to actually let go of their relationship. Even though they're not "together", it's still damaging to hear about your mother's boyfriends or your father's girlfriends. That can't be teaching her anything good about relationships.

For the record, my niece does not have particularly low self-esteem; she is bubbly and outgoing, and has many friends. (Though I'm not sure how long that will continue). It just never occurred to her that it was wrong for little boys to use her this way. I can easily see how these attitudes grow up into "Well, I didn't actually say "no", so he didn't rape me."
post #43 of 45
Quote:
Originally posted by kama'aina mama
MNS.. can you link to those stats by any chance? Because I suspect that the 71% is still a far lower number than the 15%... and that there are far more children living in poverty because of non-paying dads than non-paying moms. If I am mistaken I would like to know. If I am right then I don't see that it is male bashing to discuss that. I know that you are correct when you say that some men are ordered to pay more than they make and that paying child support is a huge financial burden but I am not convinced that enough people of either gender put paying for their non-custodial children ahead of their own needs.
I do not remember where I read those stats but I did a quick search and found some links.

Of xourse the actual number is lower because women usually automatically get custody. The only right most fathers have is that of paying when it comes to divorce and children. For a father to get custody of children usually reuires that a mother be proved "unfit" for some reason or another.

Why should parents of either gender put paying for child support ahead of actual needs? I am not talking luxury vacations, I am talking about not living in your car and having food to eat. When it took both partners working to support one household, supporting two households just is not happening.

Here are some links...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59963,00.html

http://www.supportingoursons.org/art...m?articleid=53

http://www.dadsdivorce.com/mag/essay...1Deadbeat.html

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistr...ats.html#begin

In my opinion, it is male bashing. The fact is the percentage is higher. Just because there aree way more fathers ordered to pay support in the first place is not relevant.

MNS
post #44 of 45
Okay... there are a lot of conflicting stats in those links but none of them claims the numbers you did. Mixing and matching to try to make sense I see:

In 1995,
single MOM households 12.2 million
single DAD households 3.2 million

you say
Quote:
71% of women DO NOT PAY and you do not see a nationwide DEADBEAT MOMS campaign. There are only about 15% of dads that do not pay ordered support.
The census, as quoted in fox says
Quote:
Census figures show only 57 percent of moms required to pay child support -- 385,000 women out of a total of 674,000 -- give up some or all of the money they owe.
That compares with 68 percent of dads who pay up, according to the figures.
There is a big difference between the barely more than a million moms described by the census and the 3.2 million mentioned above, from your first link, which also claims to be using Census numbers. *sigh*

So... we are likely looking at, among other things an inequity in who is awarded support payments in the first place. But lets put that aside for a moment and just look at the numbers.
Deadbeat moms: 1.2 - 2.1 million
Deadbeat dads: 1.8 - 3.6 million
(I did the math in my head so it is not great... feel free to fix it if you want... but I am in the ballpark.)
I think the ACTUAL number of kids not being provided for is relevent.

You mention that many non-custodial parents simply can't afford to pay what the court has ordered. True
Quote:
But more moms that don’t have the kids simply can’t afford to pay child support since they are poorer, said Geraldine Jensen, president of the Association for Children for Enforcement of Support. Studies show the average income for non-custodial moms is only $15,000 a year, whereas non-custodial dads average about $40,000 a year.
and that burden also falls more heavily on the women.

Male bashing is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. In any case... we are getting really off topic. If we want to discuss this further we should start a new thread. The topic here is what can we all agree on that is likely to reduce the number of abortions. I can imagine that a woman facing the decision of how to deal with an unplanned pregnancy might give some thought to how much financial assistance she will get to help with the inevitable finacial hardship she will face. Knowing that support from the father would be forthcoming, that the courts, etc would help her... not by handing down a useless ruling but by actually making sure she got the money.... might really affect her decision. I don't expect at that point she is thinking about... 'well, if I have the baby and later just give him or her to the dad... how much will that cost me a year and will I really have to pay it?
post #45 of 45
Quote:
How is a male supposed to survive to pay his support?
I guess the little slut should have thought of that before having a child, right? Isn't that what the moms are told? Why tell the dads any different? And yes, girls often initiate sex, but the boy would say no if he wasn't a complete whore. Or is that just for girls? A boy could also use a condom if he had any self-respect. He could also refuse to have sex with girls who didn't want him to use a condom. But I guess we just don't expect males to take any sexual responsibility at all.

Regarding family friendly companies...often the only positions that are family friendly are the upper level executive ones, not the minimum wage ones. I have seen McDonald's on that list. No McDonald's counter people have the right to pump milk at work. McDonald's does not provide quality daycare, paid maternity leave, extra breaks for pregnant employees, etc. They could, but they won't.

And what about women who are already unemployed when they become pregnant? Not only are they not likely to get hired if they are showing, they will be too late for any benefits. You have to be employed for a certain time to get even an unpaid leave. Family friendly means only a few things, according to Ms Magazine - sick leave (to be used only for a sick employee, not a sick child), vacation time, up to 12 weeks unpaid parental leave, and unpaid maternity leave. Many parents cannot afford to take these leaves.

I think a "dad" (or mom, if noncustodial) should pay exactly half of the child's needs. Isn't that what's fair? Custodial parents pay a lot more than half of the child's needs. Why is that fair? Should they have to give their child to the unfit parent to get a break? Two parents, one child...simple math here says that each parent should pay half. If both parents absolutely cannot support the child, the government should kick in the rest. We're talking about the best interest of the child here.
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