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What if your husband insists? - Page 3

post #41 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaad View Post
I guess why I let it happen again is because DH just kept insisting my sons will resent me when they're teenagers and they look different from everyone else. And he would tell them I was the one who made them look different from everyone else. In our religion and culture, nearly everyone does it. I didn't want my sons to resent me. And I thought, "I'm not male, what do I know about how they'll feel as teenagers?"
Circ rates are dropping. It just may be that your cut sons will be the odd men out. This depends a lot on where you live. In Europe - a circed man is rare this is also starting to happen on the west coast. You have no idea where your adult son will live or who he will end up with. What if he meets a partner from Europe (or one of our kids) who thinks a mutilated penis is gross?

By leaving your son intact, you are leaving him options...by chopping up his penis, you are taking away those options.

The default is to leave hin the way he was made. Foreskin is not a birth defect. Your son's penis does not require surgical intervention.

Would you allow your young child to get a tattoo? Why is it OK for you to modify his body if you wouldn't let him get body modification done until he's an adult?
post #42 of 85
Over my dead body here too.

Thankfully DH was receptive to being educated here, once he was educated he said it was obvious not to allow any DS to be cut.
post #43 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaad View Post
But what it comes down to is I HATE this and HATE that I let it happen. You're all right. Once it's done it's done. And if I'm so afraid my sons will resent me, I should consider they may resent me for letting it happen, right?
Then, if you ever do have another DS do NOT let it happen again. Get educated, hang around here and read the resources people have posted. You can present the information to your husband. Circ rates are very much down everywhere in the US. Where, I am (in FL) they are something like 37%. Over here when I'm at the mall or see friends change at playgroups the majority are intact.

As for whether or not they will resent you for letting it happen only the future can tell. If your DS's were intact, if they decided for some reason they didn't like it (which by the way generally does NOT happen) they could always have it done on their own when they're 18. Now that it's been done there have been structures and nerve tissue that has been removed that can never be given back. I have ran into a lot more young men recently who are unhappy that they were cut. I think a lot of it has to do with the internet...people are learning about how circ negatively affects sexuality.

DH definitely does not like that he was circ'd, and I probably even more passionately absolutely hate what my inlaws let happen to him. I wish I could go back to the day he was born and shake some sense into them. They had no business fooling around with our sex life and keeping both of us experiencing the full human sexual experience.
post #44 of 85
well I know of one person who straight up told her husband "if you insist on him getting circ'd I won't put you on the birth certificate." I would do the same thing. No way would I let my husband INSIST that our son was circ'd. I would stand up to my DH if he wanted to mutilate my child in some other way, and I would do the same for my sons foreskin. My DH knows this, so even though he wants it done, he won't fight me on it.
post #45 of 85
Yes, if I had a partner who wanted to circumcise a baby of ours, I think I wouldn't be able to control my rage.:::
I am so sorry this has happened to you and ::: for your two little boys.
post #46 of 85
My dh does not get to insist that we mutilate our child. Period.
For the record, dh also does not get to beat, rape or burn my child. To me, thiose are all the same category of abuse
post #47 of 85
My #1 job as a mother is to protect my child. My husband could "insist" all he likes, but there is no way it would happen. In reality, he'd never push to have it done, because he's a logical kind of person, and there's no logic to circumcision.
post #48 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaad View Post

I guess why I let it happen again is because DH just kept insisting my sons will resent me when they're teenagers and they look different from everyone else. And he would tell them I was the one who made them look different from everyone else. In our religion and culture, nearly everyone does it. I didn't want my sons to resent me. And I thought, "I'm not male, what do I know about how they'll feel as teenagers?"

But what it comes down to is I HATE this and HATE that I let it happen. You're all right. Once it's done it's done. And if I'm so afraid my sons will resent me, I should consider they may resent me for letting it happen, right?

The reality is, no one can predict what your sons are going to think, no one knows if they're going to be upset over this.

My theory is that most men are very happy with their penises. By having future intact sons, they get everything they were born with. I think it is more likely a son would be upset to be cut. But if he wishes he were circumcised and comes to you with that, you can offer to pay for the surgery if that ever happens. But I would trust that the chances of that actually happening are very, very small, and that your sons will be happy with their bodies.

I struggle more with intense worry over my sons who are circ'd that they will experience severe problems because of their circumcisions. I wish I could have those choices back to keep their sex organs whole.
post #49 of 85
i feel very uncomfortable with so many people saying 'if dh didn't agree with me on circ, i would divorce him'.

i understand the strong feelings against circ- i have them too. but divorce is very damaging to children as well, and i personally know many people who carry the scars of their parents' divorce, whereas most of the men i know are happy to be circed, or at least not too upset about it, happy with their bodies, etc.

i am not saying circ is ok, or we should just give up when dh disagrees, but if your only options are circ or divorce, i think there must be greater problems in the marrriage. neither option is good enough!! and saying to a woman who is pregant (not the Op on this thread, but some in the past) that she should consider divorce if her dh doesn't come around seems unproductive to me. first of all, i think few pregant women are emotionally comfortable getting a divorce when they were planning of parenting with their dh- it is a vulnerable time as it is. secondly, this is a time she and her dh should be working together to establish their future as parents, not threatening each other.

i think it's impossible to know every disagreement that is going to come up in a lifetime. i am glad i am in a marriage where we see each other as partners and can find a way to solve problems in a way that we can both live with. if someone is in a marriage where that is not the case, then circ won't be the only major/divorce threatening issue they have to deal with.

i agree that we must protect our children, and in extreme cases, i can understand saying 'over my dead body', with the hope dh coming around and the intention to continue to discuss, convince etc. but i think first there should be as much effort to convince, explain and reach an agreement as humanly possible, maybe attending communication counseling if needed. why start parenthood with one person feeling like they have no say over their decisions regarding their child? that is bound to breed resentment during what should be a joyful time.

basically, my point in posting is to say that yes, circ is horrible, but so are divorce and resentment between parents (especially if a child knows it is over an issue relating to him, which can only bring about guilt). rather than saying 'agree with me or get out' maybe we should try to remember why we married in the first place and work from there. and if the communication and lack of respect are so bad in a marriage that divorce is warrented, then i think blaming it on circ is an excuse. if it wasn't circ, it would be something else.
post #50 of 85
April - i get what you are saying. But, FOR ME, dh letting (and wanting someone) to circ our son is exactly the same to me as him wanting someone to rape our daughter.
post #51 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by aprilv View Post
i feel very uncomfortable with so many people saying 'if dh didn't agree with me on circ, i would divorce him'.

i understand the strong feelings against circ- i have them too. but divorce is very damaging to children as well, and i personally know many people who carry the scars of their parents' divorce, whereas most of the men i know are happy to be circed, or at least not too upset about it, happy with their bodies, etc.

i am not saying circ is ok, or we should just give up when dh disagrees, but if your only options are circ or divorce, i think there must be greater problems in the marrriage. neither option is good enough!! and saying to a woman who is pregant (not the Op on this thread, but some in the past) that she should consider divorce if her dh doesn't come around seems unproductive to me. first of all, i think few pregant women are emotionally comfortable getting a divorce when they were planning of parenting with their dh- it is a vulnerable time as it is. secondly, this is a time she and her dh should be working together to establish their future as parents, not threatening each other.

i think it's impossible to know every disagreement that is going to come up in a lifetime. i am glad i am in a marriage where we see each other as partners and can find a way to solve problems in a way that we can both live with. if someone is in a marriage where that is not the case, then circ won't be the only major/divorce threatening issue they have to deal with.

i agree that we must protect our children, and in extreme cases, i can understand saying 'over my dead body', with the hope dh coming around and the intention to continue to discuss, convince etc. but i think first there should be as much effort to convince, explain and reach an agreement as humanly possible, maybe attending communication counseling if needed. why start parenthood with one person feeling like they have no say over their decisions regarding their child? that is bound to breed resentment during what should be a joyful time.

basically, my point in posting is to say that yes, circ is horrible, but so are divorce and resentment between parents (especially if a child knows it is over an issue relating to him, which can only bring about guilt). rather than saying 'agree with me or get out' maybe we should try to remember why we married in the first place and work from there. and if the communication and lack of respect are so bad in a marriage that divorce is warrented, then i think blaming it on circ is an excuse. if it wasn't circ, it would be something else.
I don't think anyone is "blaming" it one circ. I think the whole point in and of itself IS that if someone refused to become educated on the matter and still insisted on chopping off bits of their child for no reason, then they DO have bigger problems.

That being said, circ is something that I plan to bring up with any potential partner way ahead of time (I'm single, so its a real issue with me).

I know there are many people that didn't learn about circ until they were already married and pregnant (or worse, after they've already circ'd before, as in the OP's case) so they wind up between a rock and hard place. And of course, I would encourage anyone to work it out but if the ONLY options are divorce or my child's foreskin, I'll take my child's foreskin, kthx.
post #52 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by aprilv View Post
and if the communication and lack of respect are so bad in a marriage that divorce is warrented, then i think blaming it on circ is an excuse. if it wasn't circ, it would be something else.
So it would be the same thing if your DH wanted to cut off your daughter's labia and clitoral hood? Cause I wouldn't want to be married to that guy, or a child molester, or a torturer, either. It's want Dr. Phil would call a "deal breaker"... so, um, it is a big deal to me not to surgically mutilate and defile my children (now that I know what circ is all about, at one time I didn't.) Just because they can't remember doesn't mean a thing. What kind of mother and wife would I be if I consented to my husband paying someone to do something that is, to me, child sexual abuse?

I didn't have much of an opinion until the day before we found out the gender of DD. I did a tiny google search. Saw the % of complications and % of doc who use anesthetic.... And that night ended with me screaming "over my dead body" and Dh ended up drinking whiskey and crying that how could anyone love him because he had been mutilated as a baby... oh, yeah, that went well. The whiskey didn't help. We dropped it for about 3 years after that, when I stumbled on here. Now Dh is restoring. Some of the men in my family are intact, some are circ'ed. My grandma wouldn't let the doc take her baby when he was born, so that's how it became our family tradition... but I'm in one of the two highest circ'ing states in the nation, and didn't know until about a year ago that circ was really painful! I'm lucky, I at least had some knowlede of people who bucked the system and penises that didn't have any problems. My youngest half-brother was circ'ed and my mom actually said over her dead body was that happening again (I was 9 and it was at the dinner table)... so, I had some background on it. Enough for me to not be comfortable circ'ing even before I knew the big picture.

Anyway, Dh and I weren't married when the circ conversation went down, but we were expecting our first. And I would have left/kicked him out. So... yep, there would definately, for me be underlying issues too horrible for a mairriage to last if my partner couldn't respect our child.

***and really, to those who didn't know better at the time, this post is in no way intended to belittle you or make you feel like a child-raping mysogonist. I don't think that of you. But i do think that of the doctors who promote and continue to practice this barbaric surgery.***

And i apologize for being so darned rambly today! It's hard for for me to get these sentiments to come out right in type.
post #53 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinsJuneBug View Post
April - i get what you are saying. But, FOR ME, dh letting (and wanting someone) to circ our son is exactly the same to me as him wanting someone to rape our daughter.
See, while I agree with you to an extent... Some people truly just don't know. I was one of those people that didn't know and I had planned to have my son circ'd. However, I was taught that everyone did it and that it was completely harmless. Luckily for my son's sake, I learned the truth before it was too late.

Like I said, I'm single, so it will be an issue that comes up with potential partners. I think that if I met someone that was all "OMG, foreskin is disgusting" right off the bat, I would just be totally turned off in the first place so the issue would be moot. LOL But if I met someone and really liked them and they honestly had no idea but were receptive to a bit of education (as in change their views after learning the truth), I would be okay with that.
post #54 of 85
I am not willing to harm my child for marital harmony. And I care not how many men are okay with the fact that someone else chose to painfully and sexually alter their genitalia. I can't even fathom cutting off a part of my child's penis too keep my marriage okay. Mutilating my kids is a deal breaker.
I can't imagine anyone here would be harping on divorce being bad for children if we were talking about cutting girls.

And I started dating my dh when I was 16 and circumcision wasn't even remotely something I was thinking about. My dh and I learned the truth about circ at the same time and he is also against it so it wasn't an issue for us.
post #55 of 85
I agree that escalating a circ debate to divorce is a tactic that should be avoided.

I do think that "over my dead body" is the correct sentiment, but I would prefer to state it as "I will not consent to it." Bascially, mom is in charge, she's the one who's asked to sign the papers, and she can choose to say NO whether or not DH is on board.

I think adding more drama to a debate is not helpful (in fact it can make a hard discussion much harder and less civil) and it's better to stay calm but strong and firm in the decision not to allow circ to happen.

Also, it does depend on how much a woman is anti-circ. I am anti-circ but I'm married to someone who is OK with circ, and I can live with that, as long as all our future children aren't cut. It's the results that matter to me most more than the philosophy. Some people couldn't live with that and need to have their parters agree totally, in which case, it's best to be discussed before marriage.

I think most people can achieve not circing their boys without having to threaten divorce, so why make it ugly if you can achieve the goal w/o going there?
post #56 of 85
Please read this info together with your husband http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=822675

As far as what to do if dh insists? Well...what would you do if he insisted on circ-ing your daughter??? This is the same thing.
post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErinsJuneBug View Post
April - i get what you are saying. But, FOR ME, dh letting (and wanting someone) to circ our son is exactly the same to me as him wanting someone to rape our daughter.
i do agree with you- rape, circ and fgm are both the same morally, physically and sexually, but socially they are not. i don't think a man who has his parents and family and doctors telling him circ is beneficial, necesary etc and who is happily circed himself is the same as a rapist because his intent is to do the right thing for his son. until our society recognizes the evils of circ, it is up to us as individuals to deal with our dh (and friends, family etc), and it helps to meet them where they are at rather than just saying 'this is the final word'. i know dh would have been defensive and less responsive had i approached it that way.

i wasn't (and would never) suggest a boy should be circed to preserve marital harmony. i am 'harping on divorce being bad for children' because i think it is and should be avoided. i was trying to say that it is much better to reach an agreement not to circ than for one partner to say 'agree or leave'. and an agreement is more likely to be reached through respectful communication than with threats and stonewalling (from either mom or dad). i understand that with emotional issues like this things can get heated, but the underlying respect should be there no matter what the issue is.

i posted because i do feel concerned when a mom-to-be posts that her dh is resisting and people respond 'i would divorce him' because i think that's likely to turn her off to the message we're trying to get across. if she feels these are her 2 choices, that's just not good enough and we risk losing her.
post #58 of 85
I think almost everyone has stated put your foot down and don't let it happen way before divorce comes into the equation. I stated in my first post if my dh circed our sons behind my back I would divorce him (while trying not to do bodily harm to him). But I would think very hard about staying married to someone who saw first hand how devastating circing our first son was for me but still insisted that we circ our second.

And yes lets pretend for a second we are talking about baby girls. What would you tell a mom to be whose dh is insisting they circ their baby girl? I don't think many would be freaking about divorce being thrown around in that situation.
post #59 of 85
I haven't read all the responses, but my two cents...

I told DH no, over my dead body. I told him no doctor would do it without my consent and if they would, I would sue the pants off them. I never told my husband I would divorce him, but if it came down to it and he wouldn't let it go, I'd take the boy and leave him.
post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by maiaminna View Post
My then-husband "insisted" when I was pg with our 2nd and 3rd children (we didn't find out the sex). I made up my mind that, if they were boys, any doctor they saw would know where I stood and be threatened with a lawsuit for circumcising without my consent, and I simply wouldn't leave them alone with exH long enough for anything to happen behind my back. I was planning to go to court over it if necessary.
But they were both girls, and my 2nd husband is intact himself. :
Your exhusband wanted to circumcise two boys? Or girls? I don't understand. Anyway,I didn't know there such fanatics,was it something religious,is he Jewish?
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