A little more info, and some of my belief system to help frame :)
Thank you for all the replies!!! I really should have asked what instances of 'willful disobedience' she meant. I did take a question from GCM and ask how she responded to spanking, and she couldn't remember any, but gave an example of her mom spanking her little sister so she'd stay in her bed for a nap. It took multiple times, so it 'worked'. I asked why was she getting up, what did the girl need? Mama to lie down with her? I meant to ask how spanking would make the little girl want to stay in bed and go to the verses on perfect love casts out fear and fear comes from punishment(another gem from GCM). But I forgot.
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Originally Posted by Ellien C  However, I personally think you really shouldn't engage in these kinds of conversations because all I think they can do for you is make you unsure of yourself. You won't win any arguments or change any minds with research, facts or snappy comebacks. I would just give some kind of vague answer like you will handle each situation as it arises in the best way you know how.
My kind of Christianity believes that we are all perfect children of god, not sinful in nature.
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When she first asked, I did say that I wanted to use positive discipline, to which she responded that not all discipline was positive.
I do like engaging people who are open, which she is, she brought it up asking, and is not confrontational or argumentative and if I can get my ducks in row, have ready answers, I think I might 'convert' her.
My best friend OTOH, and I are waaaay too close and both very emotionally involved in our 'sides' and get pretty tense, however, she is a theology student at a seminary, and if I can ever get her to study the 'rod' verses in Hebrew, I think she'd get it. She's very firm on proper systematic theology(building doctrine from the Bible as a whole and not just one book or 2-3 verses.)
I also like these discussions because it helps me firm up why I believe certain things and prepare responses and not just catchy comebacks or glossing over issues, yk?
And I do believe we are born with a sin nature, but it is a parent's job to teach, but the parent cannot fix or remove that, only prepare a child's heart to be open to responding to God, someone else said it very well here. But
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Originally Posted by Ruthla First of all, I try to limit the times I ever give a "direct order" that can result in "willful disobedience."
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Exactly. I was thinking that, but didn't know how to tell her b/c we weren't talking about a specific scenario. But I said that I felt that oftentimes parents set themselves up and make it an 'us against them(children)' situation which opens the door to willful disobedience. I know my mom did. She was very hardline when I was a child, and when she said jump, you asked how high in the air. I might add I have huge anger issues with her, she's also critical, I felt I could never to anything right/to please her, still do. My DH reminded me that she is impossible to please and to just relax and not stress myself trying(when she came to visit for 3 weeks[long story]). She has acquiesed since I said I'd never leave my children with her and my dad if they were going to spank them. My dad is pretty cool. (They read the Contiuum Concept with it when it came out and raised us much much differently than their parents, so they are trying. My mom's parents were very authoritarian. So this is all pretty cool!)
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Originally Posted by Ruthla I also try to have a realistic expectation of a child's maturity- a lot of what young kids do might be "willful disobedience" in an older child, but is simply a matter of "immature impulse control" in younger ones. And even when they do intentionally go against what you expressly told them- did they understand what you said? (Did they mishear "don't run in the street" as "run in the street"?) Are they just testing limits?
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Yes, a huge part of raising children is understanding what is developmentally appropriate. It was interesting to read in
The Vital Touch(I forget the author, it's in my car to loan to a friend), that in other countries, children don't have temper tantrums. But then, how often are children ignored in our culture, resulting in their signals not being heeded and a resultant meltdown?
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Originally Posted by library lady If God punishes, then why do we need to do it? God is taking care of the punishment part for us. We just need to sit back and watch.  :  |
Ha!
Good point! My friend is also of the school of thought spank-when-calm, etc, which IMO, if you're calm, surely you can come up with a better way to respond and discipline?
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Originally Posted by jjawm My daughter definately has times of willfull disobedience, where she'll look at me telling her 'no', and smile a bit, and run away. But I see her as learning how I will react, learning the boundaries. And sure, if I spanked her, she'd learn not to do it, but not in a healthy way. I don't want my child to fear me (or to fear God, either).
I would never hit a child. I would never hit anyone! There are so many other kinder ways to show a child the appropriate ways to behave, ways that are kind, and respectful of the child and how old they are. Dobson and Ezzo don't take into account a child's individual development, in my opinion.
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ITA that they don't. I read Dobson's books growing up, and other popular Christian authors and would try to tell my mom how to better communivate with me, but she refused to hear me. I wrote an essay about why I would not spank my children(I was 13?), I hope I can find it, my mom was mad when I did(felt it was a criticism of her), but she doesn't remember now that I wrote it.
Good points, what I italicized. ITA
I did say to my first friend, not the BF, I wouldn't want my DH to spank me say, for not washing the dishes.
:P To which she said, "Well, adults can reason."
So spank a poor kid who can't reason and understand that pain is good? I didn't know what to say to that.
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Originally Posted by IfMamaAintHappy Your 5 year old lies to you about taking your cell phone and/or your keys and hiding them, causing you to be late or not go to an appointment that afternoon because you needed the phone. The child, as a result of her own decietfulness and lying, prevented you from going somewhere. If you think it will make an impression on her, I suppose you should take away her next playdate.
Think about what your boundaries are. What things are absolutely NOT OKAY and what you will do in those situations.. before they start happening.
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Yeah, that's why I started this, thnking about these things before getting there.
BTW, I read something recently that talked about lying and how younger children are not necessarily lying in the sense we think of lying, but saying what they wished was true. I know I'm not expressing it as well as the article I read, but it really impressed me.
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Originally Posted by janasmama |
Thank you!!!! I read the OP and am looking forward to getting to read more.
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Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom Seems to me that God's punishment of us (if you want to look at it htat way) is the ultimate example of using natural consequences! Things get unpleasant due to our actions -- God doesn't reach out and hit my bottom. I try to emulate that in my discipline of my children -- natural consequences when possible, logical consequences if natural are impractical or dangerous. Explanations and reasoning above all else. God doesn't ask us to go it alone -- he provides pastors and teachers and to emulate him we need to do the same for our kids.
God has already paid the price for our sin -- that includes our children. Jesus did not just die for adults! Therefore, not an issue.
Overall, I also have problems with "willful disobedience" as a concept. Children do what they do for a reason, and its not "just to piss mom (or God) off". Sometimes it seems pretty illogical from our adult perspective, but it doesn't make it evil, just immature.
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Yes, that was my initial, internal response, what is 'willful disobedience'? And Yes, adults do not think like children do. I love one child's idea of where babies come from, daddies have baby boys and mommies have baby girls. It does make sense in a different way that we're used to looking at things, conception, birth, the woman's body, but to me it makes sense, esp. if a child has been told part of a baby is from mommy and part from daddy doesn't fully conprehend they make a baby together.
How can we assume that children see and comprehend things exactly the way adults do? Pish, for that matter, I don't see things the way my husband does, but then his view is much more, ahem, 'logical' and adult-like. We joke that I'm like Calvin, and he is like Hobbes.
But I digress.
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