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Originally Posted by momma_unlimited
I don't think you can spank your child into a good attitude any more than you can "convert" someone on threat of killing them.
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Yes, this irks me to no end, too.
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Originally Posted by Mamallama08
This is a time-honored theological debate, and if you don't mind I'd like to add my two cents: I was always taught that "God loves the wicked." I have never in my life seen an instance where God has punished anyone. God is Good to everyone in my opinion. Willful disobedience is a natural developmental step (i.e. when a child learns the word, "No"). It helps them to individuate themselves and it's important because it's practice for later in life. You might talk to your priest or pastor for guidance on this issue. Jesus willfully disobeyed many authorities and was crucified by Man, not God. Perhaps a positive approach is better. Make Jesus your child's hero. . . . He practiced surrender which is the most spiritually powerful practice known. How can we be like him and fear God at the same time? He never feared his father. There is so much more that I could say here. Thank you for this thread because I like to discuss these issues openly. And I'm sorry I didn't really answer you question, but I wish you the best. Children are a miracle in that they are perfectly innocent, yet they ask us to examine ourselves and find out what we believe at the very core of our being.
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Good point. I might bring that up, asking if anyone has felt punished(
not convicted by God). I did try to point out that expecting willful disobedience sets your relationship up for butting heads(adversarial is a better word). When I said to her that I wanted to use Positive Discipline she said that not all discipline could be positive. Well, duh, yes, not all correction is accepted positively, but my actions can certainly be positive instead of negative. I am the adult, for Pete's sake! I am supposed to have more control over my actions/words, especially as a self-controlled, Holy Spirit-guided Christian. Sigh.
Sometimes I'm frustrated that even having this discussion with Christians. Don't we believe that in grace? Don't we believe God extends grace to us? Don't we believe we are to show that same grace to others? What about showing it to our own children?
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Originally Posted by LilacMama
Wow. Great discussion. I would ask these people when the last time they felt punished by God was.
I know I do things I regret on a regular basis. I often know what is right and do the opposite (as the apostle Paul lamented was his experience). I have NEVER felt that I was punished by God, especially in such a direct way as spanking. I have felt natural consequences to my actions and I don't think you always do your children any favors by sheltering them from the natural consequences. But I have also felt so much Grace and Love from God. I hear from God "yes, you messed up but you are loved and forgiven already...go and sin no more."
But I would just be really curious to know, from these people's perspective, what they felt that their own adult equivalent to being "spanked by God" was? I suspect, if anything, it was natural consequences to their actions and sorrow in their hearts over their wrong-doing.
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Interesting, people expect a child to get punished, say for hitting another child, and giving them grace, saying it was wrong, and modeling how to act, etc. would be considered "letting them get away with it".
I still feel kinda like that.
The little guy (3 yo) I babysit has bitten my daughter while under my supervision. Modeling to him, "This is what you do when she's in your space" and trying to stay within arm's reach of them constantly is hard--if not impossible with a third child to take care of. My DH asked what do I do. Hmm, what if my child were the biter, how would I want someone else to treat her? Actually, she has bitten/tries to bite us and has bitten herself hard enough to bruise herself. I'm not entirely certain she understands what owie means. So far she laughs at our reactions.
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Originally Posted by mammal_mama
Actually, I had a friend who believed that in every illness, there is some sin at the root (she probably still believes this). She said "God is a God of order" -- and to her this seemed to mean that there's always a direct cause-and-effect relationship that's discernible to us here on earth -- which we need to discern if we ever want true healing.
We recently suffered miscarriages at around the same time, and she said she was really seeking God about her miscarriage ... we've since lost touch, so I don't know what sin she eventually decided was at the root. I never perceived my miscarriage as a punishment from God, but simply as a hard thing that God would help me through, which He had allowed for reasons that someday I'll understand.
I just don't feel a need to know the "why" of every hard thing that happens. I believe God reveals whatever we need to know at the time -- sure we should seek Him ("those who seek shall find") -- but seeking Him actually leads us deeper and deeper into Him, which in my experience just makes us increasingly aware of how much bigger God and His purposes are, than we can ever grasp.
Anyhow, this friend and I are currently not in contact, because she disagrees with me for not spanking my kids, and feels they're just getting to know God as Lamb and not Lion. She feels that kids need "law first," because that lays the framework for them being able to fully appreciate grace.
I actually think that many parents who believe in punishment for children, also believe in punishment for adults. At a family reunion a while back, I heard two relatives discussing the severe health problems of a mutual friend. One relative capped off the conversation by saying something like, "But every problem he has, he caused by his own choices."
As if it's any more comforting to know we brought something on ourselves! In contrast, the deeper I get into gentle discipline, the easier it is for me to have grace toward adults, including myself!  |
Ouch, saying you miscarried because of some sin you had?! That's as bad(and non-Biblical) as thinking a woman is barren because of some sin. It makes me mad how barrenness was blamed on women and never on men in the Bible, of course, there were instances where there were other (fertile) wives, but still. . . argh.
Hmm, does Law=Punishment?
I believe that sin can/does cause sickness sometimes. I've heard/read of e.g. bitter, angry people having cancers, but then being healed when they forgave a certain person. OTOH, my DH's aunt died of a brain tumour, and she was one of the kindest, gentlest, most loving women I've ever met.
I believe because there is sin (in a general sense) that there is sickness and death. We are not healed of being sinful until we are Heaven and perfected.
Hmm, as for her argument about Law first, those of us who believe in NT Christianity have come in under grace. We did not experience the Law. I gotta get my Bible and look at Romans.
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy
I really abhor the term "willful disobedience". It is a quick way to squelch any open mind I have for the other person's point of view during a discussion about discipline  However, I will say with regard to the relationship I have with God, that I am only commanded to obey Him. I am commanded to honor my mother and father but of course God never really defined exactly what honoring means in that context. Does it mean obey their every command, even if they are not acting in a just or age appropriate way? Does it mean that a child should not have a voice, or a dissenting opinion, or the opportunity to question the "rules" of their parents or the right to question the Godliness of the punishments they dole out?
I don't believe so. I believe children are every bit of God's glorious creation -- in fact, even moreso according to scripture. God values children very much for their innocence, trust, and ability to accept God wholly and to love unconditionally. In my opinion, children are most like God in many ways.
I don't know what you friend means by "willful disobedience". I suspect they mean when your child doesn't instantly stop doing something undesirable to you when you command -- or have an opinion that differs from your opinion (they think your white curtains look awesome with red marker polka dots for instance LOL)
Well, first and foremost, I have to account to God for my actions on Earth. I personally believe that when I die, I will be asked by God " How did you most honor my Son on Earth" and boy do I want to have a good answer for that question. I am coming from a Christian perspective though so your mileage may vary.
I believe that the traits God most values are ones of patience, kindness, forgiveness, self-discipline, gentleness, and grace -- so I want to treat my child in accordance to the traits He finds glorifying to Him as laid out in my Holy Book (The Bible). He also lays out a lot of traits that are undesirable to Him and which don't bring honor to His son -- anger, violence, self righteousness, fear, etc... and in my understanding of The Bible -- things like hitting/shaming/punishing don't fit with that description of how I believe I am called to conduct myself.
God says He is the author of peace, not confusion. Punishment is confusing to children who seek and crave unconditional love from their parents. God gave unconditional love to us (imo) and to give our children anything less is to be prompted by our own egos and not driven by the desire to glorify God.
Going back to my first statement, I think it can be useful to change terminology. The term "willful disobedience" automatically creates an adversarial situation in my opinion. I choose to reframe situations so that everyone is on the same side. Then, it becomes more about "how can we work together for the greater good", rather than "how can I stop my child from doing something "bad". |
I really like the statements bolded above and ITA!!! You said it all much better than I could have.
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