C-Section Baby - Page 2

[Greaseball]

Yes, what about the baby? Too many people fail to think about that crucial element. Not just about c/s but other choices, like induction or drugs. It really does make a difference. I can't believe how many people schedule a c/s because of a vacation, or because they are afraid labor will hurt. What about the baby?

Also, in my small town, I heard a woman talking about the time a doctor left an instrument inside her during her cesarean. This error was not discovered until her next pregnancy. So it's not just an urban legend.

How we are born truly does matter. Not to say it can't be overcome, but best to avoid that in the first place. Surgery should be reserved for true emergencies. It sounds so obvious!

[ladylee]

Juice23, I understood your point from the get go and it is a valid one. A woman who is either faced with an emergency cesarean or a planned (I'm not going to get into a debate over semantics and what "elective" means) cesarean would benefit from considering how it will effect the child emotionally throughout the course of their lives, and make preparations to address that both during and after the birth. Being aware of birth trauma impact from ANY type of birth would be a very smart thing to do.

Women who birth via cesarean do have the ability to create a loving, welcoming environment just as any other woman. With both of my births my children were brought into the world by kind, careful, honoring hands and I'm confident they continued to feel the love that surrounded them when in the womb once they were outside. I do energy work, and I surrounded them with loving, protective energy throughout the whole birth. Anyone can do this.

I also think there's a lot that can't be controlled--in terms of destiny. Every child has a destiny to be birthed a certain way, every mother has a destiny to give birth a certain way-and everything that goes with that-traumatic or not, is necessary for them to experience-to learn things we may not have understood before about ourselves

[OnTheFence]

I just read this thread and I am so puzzled by some of the comments by the OP. I for one minute, am not going to buy that this posters emotional problems with abandonment deal with being birthed by csection.
I think to even suggest that children are damaged emotionally by csections is ludicrous and unfounded. I cant believe no one else has said anything -- I believe that this is just another way to judge women who do have csections and then place blame on them if something happens to their children down the road. The OP states that her mother used attachment parenting with her yet she feels abandonment from a birth she cant remember. And is csection a form of abandonment -- I think not.
I hope to the gods that my children don't try to blame any problems in their life based on the way they were birthed. Frankly, if they try, I might get really sarcastic and ask them had they rather died because that is what would have happened to them because they sure were not coming out vaginally.

[sweetfeet]

I for one minute, am not going to buy that this posters emotional problems with abandonment deal with being birthed by csection.

I totally agree with you here. I did a double take when I read what the OP wrote. I was born by csection and had my dd by csection. I don't have any abandonment issues at all. I think it is almost laughable to imply that the way you are birthed resulted in your feelings of abandonment. How many other issues can we blame on csections? Next up is that all babies born via csection will be criminals. I really don't even see the whole point of this thread. If I am missing it my apologies.

[Peppermint]

ITA with OnThe Fence and Sweetfeet, I thought all of that when I first read this thread, but didn't have the guts to say it.

[Juice23]

I do not at all blame my parents for the emotional issues that I am dealing with. I think it is interesting that I am not allowed to judge other women's choices about c-section or vaginal births, but my thoughts about how the way a baby is birthed are allowed to be judged. It is interesting what a double standard there is. I was not meaning to pass any kind of judgment about c-sections, I was merely trying to point out that our choices do affect other people-including our children. And the reason I was upset by the other posts on other feeds was not because it pissed me off that those women chose c-section. It was because I felt that all these women (based on how I interpreted their own posts) were making choices based on misinformation or not being completely informed about ALL the risks involved in ALL the different choices out there.

I believe that my emotional issues are attached to trauma that has happened in my life-whether they be on the conscious or sub-conscious levels. Not everyone believes that physical and emotional trauma can affect us throughout our lives, but I do. In order to deal with these issues, I do a lot of therapy-CranioSacral Therapy, BodyTalk, etc. and one of the major issues that I have been dealing with has been my abandonment issues-which I originally thought may be linked to something else, but through my therapy sessions realized that it was connected to my birth. My mom has done her own therapy sessions and discovered that she was having issues that were connected to the same thing. Whether or not anyone else buys into what I am saying-I don't really care. I am not concerned with what other people think about what I do to treat myself. The point of the post was to give women a chance to see how their choices can affect their children-positively or negatively. I am not trying to say that ALL children born a certain way will wind up screwed up or not screwed up. I am only saying that Hey, it can happen, so consider that it can before you make your final decision. And I would be saying this whether we are talking about how to birth, raise, treat your children, or how you live your life in other ways. Know that YOUR choices have an affect on everyone you come in contact with-not just YOU.

[Greaseball]

Do you know for sure it was the c-section? You may have been taken to the nursery and mistreated. I don't know how old you are, but it could have been your mother was only allowed to ask for you at certain times, was not even allowed to unwrap you, and that your father was not allowed on the floor at all. Breastfeeding may have been discouraged, you may have been dangled upside down and slapped, had spinal taps, and who knows what else!

These things still happen today sometimes.

[Lucysmama]

Originally posted by Juice23
I think it is interesting that I am not allowed to judge other women's choices about c-section or vaginal births, but my thoughts about how the way a baby is birthed are allowed to be judged. It is interesting what a double standard there is. I was not meaning to pass any kind of judgment about c-sections, I was merely trying to point out that our choices do affect other people-including our children. And the reason I was upset by the other posts on other feeds was not because it pissed me off that those women chose c-section. It was because I felt that all these women (based on how I interpreted their own posts) were making choices based on misinformation or not being completely informed about ALL the risks involved in ALL the different choices out there.

You are "allowed" to judge other women's choices, but keep in mind that this is a community. Many of these women know each other well, and have been communicating for years. Some may take it personally when a new member comes and judges their choices without really taking the time to get to know them, or to find out the full story behind their births. Others may feel it is none of anyone's business, and that they do not have to justify their choices to anyone.

Secondly, I don't think anyone here is judging you for what you are posting...they are simply trying to help you understand where they are coming from, and to help educate you about where they stand on the issue you brought up and why.

What bothers me the most is when you say that "all these women" here at MDC are making decisions based on misinformation. Nobody can fully know that - maybe not even the woman herself. Women here at MDC are for the most part highly educated about birth, pregnancy, cesarean, etc... from what I have read - and I have read hundreds of posts on the subject - women here are intelligent, educated, and understand the risks to both them and their babies when it comes to c/section.

Perhaps the reason that you feel retaliated against is because you are making assumptions about other women's motives, education about birth and cesarean, and judging them based on that. This is a supportive forum, and generally we do not judge each other harsly. (At least in our posts...what you feel and think is up to you.) We are all here to learn and grow, and to help each other along on our roads of knowledge.

I understand this is a sensitive issue for you because you had a traumatic birth, but please do not judge we mothers who have had cesareans to be "misinformed."

[OnTheFence]

When I was a teen, 15 to be exact, I knew that I was going to do two things when I had children: have them at home and breastfeed. Before I got pregnant with my daughter I read everything I could get my hands on about natural childbirth and homebirth. I read the Silent Knife before it ever became a popular read and I read all kinds of information on the perils of having a csection (NONE I might add say that a child would be emotionally scarred for life)
I got pregnant and planned to have a natural vaginal delivery. I knew my stuff and I was determined. I agreed to have my first baby in a hospital at my husbands request. (he had two siblings die at birth or shortly after) Thank god I did.
I knew four weeks before I had my daughter I had a baby in the breech presentation. I was devastated. My doctor offered to deliver the baby vaginally if she was positioned correctly. Unfortunately with a transverse lie that was not an option. I did many things, suggested by local midwives, to turn the baby naturally. Nothing worked. Determined I knew best and my baby was just being stubborn for lying side to side I decided to have version. This was my choice and I made it because I wanted a natural vaginal delivery (at almost any cost). The version was attempted three times, complications took place and I ended up being an emergency csection. I lived my worst nightmare and then some. In a hazeys tate I was told I had a uterine deformity and that it was very unlikely I would ever have children vaginally. (unless they were grossly premature)
No one knew better than me the ills of csections and the effects on mother and child. No one. Now I come here to read this craziness that it can cause emotional damage to my children. What about violent or bad vaginal births that take place-- I wonder if that will also harm the childs psyche.
I have read plenty about utero and birth experiences playing a role in a childs emotional and psychological developemnt (I have an adopted child which lead me to do this) and some of it out there is valid. (my adopted child loves country music and motorcycles -- something his birthmother indulged in during pregnancy) I am going to go on to say that while some of it has some interesting and thought provoking theories some of it is looney.
I am familiar with Body Talk. I'm not impressed.

For those of us who had to have csections or elected to have csections by choice (and those stories I have read here most the moms were pretty informed if they chose a repeat csection) its insulting to say we are misinformed and that our decisions are going to have some lasting emotional impact on our child.

[Lucky Charm]

I think to even suggest that children are damaged emotionally by csections is ludicrous and unfounded

I'm with you on that one.

I cant believe no one else has said anything --

I just found the thread.

Juice, maybe your abandonment issues arent because of the birth itself, but your moms emotional reaction to it. Maybe she kept you emotionally at arms length because of her disappontment in the birth process. I have no idea what i'm saying, i'm kinda grasping at straws. If anything your mom should have the issue of her baby being "ripped from her"......how could you have abandonment issues based on the fact you were born c-section?

I know alot of women who have had csections and their kids dont have abandonment issues. and alot of women who "elect" to have a c-section do so with a lot of thought. I just am not liking at all the way this thread is turning into another way to put women down about their birth experiences. making women feel guilty. Good grief. I am the way i am because of the way i was raised, not because of the way i was born. trust me, this board is full of women with serious issues, and plenty of them were born vaginally.

[Greaseball]

Who's to say that early experience doesn't matter? If a child's first experience is pain and discomfort, who is to say that child won't be affected? Of course, the rest of its life matters too, but I don't think that means it's OK to give it a crappy birth experience.

Some women truly need surgical intervention, but there are also a lot of women who plan it unnecessarily. These include women who are having their first baby and just don't want to deal with a vaginal birth. I think if one really needs a surgical delivery, it should be made as painless as possible for the baby. The baby should not be born before it is ready. It should be able to experience some labor first. It should be gently lifted out and given to the mother and allowed to nurse and fully room-in. The father should be able to be present completely, even if general anesthesia is to be used. The surgeons should actively communicate with the mother instead of talking about sports. What hospital in the world would ever do all this for one little baby?

I am planning a home birth because I think it will be best for the baby. It's quite inconvenient for me, but this is not my birth. I know what people mean when they say that lately no one thinks of the baby. In the latest Mothering, Peggy O'Mara talks about an article she read on the new "walking" epidurals, and she says the word "baby" is never mentioned. It's only the mother the article focuses on, as if it's somehow her experience alone.

[OnTheFence]

First I want to make some comments. It is very rare for a first mother to plan an elective csection. The few I know that did plan them were for medical reasons, valid ones. While I agree that with csection rate of 25% is high and that there are unnecessary ones being done, about half of those are necessary medically. (I believe the WHO says ours should be around 9-10% -- dont quote me on that)

Also, some of us do plan our csections, and while I will agree that idealisticly we should wait to go into labor -- for some of this would be the wrong path to take for medical and emotional reasons. I know that for me, emotionally, my last csection needed to be planned. To achieve the birth and experience I needed for me and my baby I needed a Date. I can assure you, he wasn't ripped from my womb and man handled into the horrify world of the surgery room. :

I saw my baby being born, he was brought into the world beautifully, he was on my chest right aftrewards, and he was at my breast 15 minutes after he was born. No trauma, no pain and we roomed in. And my doctor didnt talk about sports -- we talked about commercials and Monsters Inc. and my deformed uterus. I was actually laughing on the surgery table. Yes, laughing. No one was disrespectufl of my wishes or my plan. In fact it was wonderful!

I think its condescending to say "what hospital would do this for one little baby". Well the one I went to did. And it is happening in hospitals all over the US. I believe it is ideal to birth your baby at home but shit happens, real human beings with feelings and medical problems, or even normal human beings with no medical problems -- have and continue to achieve the birth they want in hospitals. (my friend did this week! and she elected to go to have her baby in a hospital after a beautiful UC at home)

I will agree focus needs to be put on baby, but not all of it. Happy mommas are key. I think focus should be put on them, their experience, their feelings. They should be educated and not bullied to do it the ACOG way or the natural childbirth granola hippie way either. For some of us, there is a middle ground -- one we are comfortable one, one we feel is right for us.

[Greaseball]

I think its condescending to say "what hospital would do this for one little baby". Well the one I went to did. And it is happening in hospitals all over the US.

I know of no hospital that will allow a father to be present while the mother is asleep. If yours was that way, or if you know of any that are, that is good. That's one rule that needs to be scrapped! It was made to serve only the hospital and not the patients. That and the one that says lesbian partners aren't allowed in even if the mother is awake. I don't think I'm wrong to say that most hospital procedures are done for the good of the institution and not the mother or baby.

I think some women who plan c/s have been told their reason is medical when it really isn't. "Small pelvis," "large baby," etc. And I personally know women who have done it because their husbands were going to be on a business trip on the due date. It seems everywhere I go where there are a lot of pregnant women (other than here!) they are all talking about just going for surgery because "it's so much easier and safer." And of course there are all those articles coming out on how vaginal birth causes fetal trauma and urinary incontinence and how cesareans are always the safest way for any baby. ACOG decided it was ethical for doctors to perform cesareans for non-medical reasons. (There is a thread in Activism about this.)

I think a lot of injuries that happen to c/s moms and babies come from the doctors not paying attention during surgery. One book suggests that doctors need to detach themselves as much as possible to get over the fact that they are cutting open a human being, so that's why they talk about sports and food with each other. But that's good they actually talked to you!

Another thing that would be good is letting other children be present. Make it a truly family-centered birth! And, more support for the mother afterward; support that doesn't consist of "Get your lazy ass out of that bed; you're not dead!" Is a mother really ready to leave after 72 hours? That seems very short.

[Lucysmama]

It's very easy to judge a mother for having an unnecessary cesarean if you have never had one before. One might think , "Well, if you would have educated yourself..." or "I would never let them do that!" but unless you have experienced it first-hand(and in most cases not even then), I really don't think you are in any position to assume that these women are uneducated, wilting violets, pushovers, or similarly flawed.

I could go into lengthy detail about why I ended up with a cesarean although I was:
a)educated - having read all the right books and spoken with educated natural/home/experienced birthers
b)vocal about not having interventions
c)an advocate for myself and the baby's well-being to the full extent of my abilities both before and after labor and birth

I don't think anyone is arguing here that there aren't unneccesary elective surgeries done, or that the cesarean rate isn't appallingly high. The point that I, and many other posters made was that despite what the OP stated, many women *here at MDC* are very educated, don't take surgery lightly, and undergo it with good cause. They should not then be subject to such labels as "misinformed" because they have surgical births.

I absolutely believe that birth experiences (how we ourselves were birthed.) can effect us in the long-run. Check out the book Ghosts From the Nursery for a lot of research and detail on this. Their tiny brains are firing synapses - the first maps in their brains! If those are maps of pain and discomfort - which is not restricted to cesarean birthing; it can also happen during vaginal birthing - those will be the first recorded cranial experiences. No doubt these are not superfluous thoughts and sensations.

However, this is NOT the only aspect for women, doctors, and partners to be concerned with. While it is ideal for children to be brought into the world in a calm, peaceful manner - it is not always feasible. Yes, Greaseball - it would be nice, and I'm sure we can all agree it is something to strive for - but there are birth emergencies where lives are at stake and children will be born with an air of urgency, nervousness, and rush. Such is a small price to pay for the health and well-being of mother and child. When you say, Greaseball, that the baby should be able to experience labor, I assume you understand that this is not always a possiblity?

OnTheFence - congratulations on your positive cesarean birthing story! They are few and far between, and I commend you for taking an active role in the birth, and for your obvious dedication to achieving a good birth for you and your baby.

[applejuice]

Re: C-Section Baby

Originally posted by Juice23


For my entire life, I have been suffering from abandonment issues. .... Physical scars heal, but mental and emotional scars last a lifetime.

This is a little T, but relevant nevertheless.

There was a study done in Scandinavia by Dr. Bertil Jacobsen which followed the babies of traumatic births and found a relationship between suicide, the method of suicide and the way the child was born. E.g., if a baby is born through a forceps delivery, and the child grows up with 'problems', suicide through a mechanical means ...

[applejuice]

I am five feet tall. I weighed 109 pounds before I first became pregnant at the age of 25. I worked out and took good care of myself. I had all of my four children at home.

When I went to a mommy'n'me group with my children, I was often the ONLY woman who did NOT have a Caesarean Section. I NEVER told ANYONE there that I had a home birth because the attitude was that anyone who would do that is crazy and dumb.

I went for other reasons so I kept my mouth shut.

That was 23 years ago in Los Angeles, CA. Land of fruits and nuts. I truly think things have become even worse. Doctors who should not be in Obstetrics are there for the $ and to save time and make more $ they practice defensive medicine.

I always as a CCE told my clients to go to a midwife first, and if they needed a hospital and obstetrician, then go, but otherwise, you are not sick, so why go where there are sick people?

[Lucky Charm]

Applejuice, are you suggesting, that based on a Scandinavian study, that my second child, born using forceps is at increased risk of suicide or "problems"?? Are we to put all our eggs in one freaking scandinavian basket? And is this man some sort of authority? It seems like alot of american studies (on whatever, its just an example) are routinely dismissed, and yet you just put out there a few sentences that stopped me cold, based on what one man said.

Of course, you are certainly within your right to say what you believe, especially since you have no idea who i am, or anyone else is who might be lurking around. I guess I am thinking you believe this study has some merit, or else you wouldnt have said it or quoted the author. Why would you post it, knowing it could upset a mom (like me) who has had a forceps delivery? I mean, my son is now 13 for gods sake, and not a whole lot i could do about it. except feel a bit of fear because of a few sentences you felt had to be said.

Lisa

[Greaseball]

When you say, Greaseball, that the baby should be able to experience labor, I assume you understand that this is not always a possiblity?

Of course. Emergency cesareans are a different story altogether. I hope the mother's comfort is considered, though. Open Season has stories from women who were operated on without anesthesia during their emergency c's.

[Lucysmama]

Originally posted by Greaseball
Of course. Emergency cesareans are a different story altogether. I hope the mother's comfort is considered, though. Open Season has stories from women who were operated on without anesthesia during their emergency c's.

Which I would gladly go through if it was a true emergency and my baby's life was on the line.

[OnTheFence]

I am going to comment some more, of course!

I will share a little about my first csection that was necessary. It ended up as an emergency but I had unluckily had the cath in my back for an epidural or spinal when the dire need arose to cut me and get my baby out. They gave me a spinal, wheeled me in and began to cut. I could barely breathe. The medication had gone too high into my chest and unfortunately did not affect my abdomen at all. So I felt the whole thing. I was screaming for them to knock me the F out. I called them every name in the book. I have been told they never heard such vulgar hateful things come out of a woman before. They couldn't knock me out due to it going to high in my chest and it affecting my airway. Lovely. So they kept injecting demoral into my IV during the suturing stage. (which seemed like forever) My husband got into a fight when they hit 150milligrams of demerol with the Anest. I got a total of 250 in less than 45 minutes. I heard one of the doctors say "we are going to keep drugging her until she stops screaming" Then they gave me amnesia medication. Too bad it didnt work. I would love to have forgotten what happen in that surgery room. Instead I spent the next 12 hours in a drugged stupor, not remembering my daughter or the first time I nursed.

When I did become fully aware of all that happened in that room - I felt like I was a story in Silent Knife. I wanted to die. I spent the next 9 months having PPD, nightmares, and recovering from a 1hour and 15 minute surgery to deliver my baby. There were many reasons this nightmare happened -- part of what happen is from choices I made, and having a doctor that was green and not experienced with the type of uterine deformity I had, and a guy who in a rush did the dosing of my spinal wrong.

You can probably understand why I needed to plan my next csection. I wasn't willing to change going into labor and getting shit on again by unskilled professionals. Especially since all through my last pregnancy I dreamed they did my csection on top of a concrete slab in the cemetery near my family plot.

And my last experience was wonderful. I would do it again and again. I was in the OR 30 minutes. I was in no pain. I had my mental faculties. My last csection was a breeze. It wasnt a horror story, it wasnt a Silent Knife story -- it was the closest thing I was ever going to get in my idealist world.