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Has your child struggled with writing? - Page 2  

post #21 of 38
Kathy -- have you watched how your ds writes? (this is probably a dumb question, because I would totally guess that you have!)

Is he gripping really tight? A tight grip can cause fatigue, so output would be limited. Does he do better with a pen (less friction on the paper.)

Does he have an easier time drawing? (more free flow)

Have you tried dictating to him to see if he can keep up? (difference between getting the thoughts down on paper vs. actual mechanics of writing)
post #22 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraLoo View Post
Kathy -- have you watched how your ds writes? (this is probably a dumb question, because I would totally guess that you have!)

Is he gripping really tight? A tight grip can cause fatigue, so output would be limited. Does he do better with a pen (less friction on the paper.)

Does he have an easier time drawing? (more free flow)

Have you tried dictating to him to see if he can keep up? (difference between getting the thoughts down on paper vs. actual mechanics of writing)

Ah, Laura, he has such a block when it comes to writing that I am really at a loss. You know those people who are math phobic - he is almost writing phobic.

I have let it go in recent months (maybe longer) I am afraid if I force the issue - he will put up even more barriers.

We have been having luck lately with keyboarding - I am quietly hoping it will be a springboard to further writing.

While I understand keyboarding is the way of the future - it would be nice if he could write well enough to take notes at a meeting for fill out a job application!

To answer your questions - his grip is tight, his letters weirdly formed and poorly spaced. He does better with a pen, and cannot draw at all. I have no idea if he takes dictation faster than writing his own thoughts (I will do an experiment and find out) His thoughts, though, are very cool - he is quite the oral storyteller! His spelling is quite passable.

Kathy

ETA: I might get a tutor for him in this area. I think we have too much water under the bridge about it.
post #23 of 38
My 7yo son complains that it makes his hand hurt. He is an extremely coordinated, athletic kid, with no fine motor control issues. But he seems to tire very easily when writing. We are hs'ing, so I am not pushing it for now, but it's something I'm keeping my eye on. At the moment he will only write in caps because he says the lower case letters are too hard. Of course, my FIL has beautiful printing, and he also uses all caps, so maybe it's not an issue!

Edited to add: Just read a post above about friction, grip on the pencil, etc. This is definitely an issue for my ds. His preferred choice of pen is a Sharpie, and I believe it's because he gets a lot of output without having to push very hard.
post #24 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
To answer your questions - his grip is tight, his letters weirdly formed and poorly spaced. He does better with a pen, and cannot draw at all. I have no idea if he takes dictation faster than writing his own thoughts (I will do an experiment and find out) His thoughts, though, are very cool - he is quite the oral storyteller! His spelling is quite passable.

Kathy

ETA: I might get a tutor for him in this area. I think we have too much water under the bridge about it.
Have you tried using those pencil grips? You know the ones that are kind of foamy and soft? Younger kids use bigger pencils (circumference) so maybe this would help. Also, if his hands get sweaty with the tight grip, this can help, too. But truly, if he does better with a pen, that's probably the route to go. You could probably even put those pencil grips on the pen.

How does your ds feel about writing? Is it something he wants to get better at? I think it would be so frustrating to be slowed down by having to write something out that is so creative in the brain. I find that ds orally tells great stories, but when he writes them, only half of the detail or less comes out on the page. Maybe he could dictate his stories, or whatever, into a smaller tape recorder and then listen to it and pause when necessary to write it out. If it were me, I'd go with total output over legibility for awhile. I'm certain that he can probably tell that his writing doesn't look great, and that's got to be frustrating, too. I think you are probably on the path of trying to figure out if it's just more practice that's needed, or if his writing is a problem that won't be solved without something else. Keyboarding can help strengthen finger muscles, so this isn't a bad thing, either.

Some kids hate writing on lined paper (having to keep in the lines -- or because the lines are jumpy which would indicate a vision problem.

I know that you are homeschooling this year, but you are eligible for OT services regardless. OT might help and be less expensive than a tutor. (Good OTs could figure out the cause, too.)
post #25 of 38
So how can you tell the difference between dysgraphia and a child who just has bad handwriting? Is it possible to be dysgraphic without having any other learning issues? Bean's handwriting is still at the level of about a 4.5 year old, tops (he'll be six in November). I know that part of the reason that it's so striking is because he's working at a higher level. It's disconcerting to look at a page of multiplication and see what looks like a baby's scrawl all over it with correct answers... but his handwriting is really awful. Is it likely to get better without OT?
post #26 of 38
LOL Rynna -- you crack me up! I think the big difference here is Bean is 5'ish and Kathy's son is 12. What's normal for a 5 year old becomes less typical for a 12 year old.

If it makes you feel any better, my ds' writing this past year (he had just turned 6) *really* improved. It almost looks perfect (maybe too perfect, IYKWIM.) I think you can totally relax and not worry about any OT intervention for awhile! Bean isn't that far behind.

ETA: I'm not sure about dysgraphia existing alone -- it is part of dyslexia, of course, but I think there are varying degrees of how dyslexia presents itself and how. Not an expert here!
post #27 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraLoo View Post
Have you tried using those pencil grips? You know the ones that are kind of foamy and soft? Younger kids use bigger pencils (circumference) so maybe this would help. Also, if his hands get sweaty with the tight grip, this can help, too. But truly, if he does better with a pen, that's probably the route to go. You could probably even put those pencil grips on the pen.

How does your ds feel about writing? Is it something he wants to get better at? I think it would be so frustrating to be slowed down by having to write something out that is so creative in the brain. I find that ds orally tells great stories, but when he writes them, only half of the detail or less comes out on the page. Maybe he could dictate his stories, or whatever, into a smaller tape recorder and then listen to it and pause when necessary to write it out. If it were me, I'd go with total output over legibility for awhile. I'm certain that he can probably tell that his writing doesn't look great, and that's got to be frustrating, too. I think you are probably on the path of trying to figure out if it's just more practice that's needed, or if his writing is a problem that won't be solved without something else. Keyboarding can help strengthen finger muscles, so this isn't a bad thing, either.

Some kids hate writing on lined paper (having to keep in the lines -- or because the lines are jumpy which would indicate a vision problem.

I know that you are homeschooling this year, but you are eligible for OT services regardless. OT might help and be less expensive than a tutor. (Good OTs could figure out the cause, too.)

He may qualify for OT. I will look into it.

No, he does not want to get better at writing (or at least - he says he doesn't). He really does have a block on working on this area. It could be a variety of things - both mental and physical.

Physical - something is going on. He cannot draw, either. There is a mechanical issue.

Mental: writing is too slow, frustrates him, and he finds boring. While I have never thought this before, maybe some of his giving up stems from perfectionism (he cannot do it up to his standards, so does not bother trying.)

To be fair, and brutally honest, (no flames please, I am already ashamed of this) he has not have enough practice at writing. Ds was Homeschooled up until grade 3. We did not focus on writing - he did not like it, and for the most part I believed in teaching to strengths. I did not force the issue - I really did not want a power struggle.

From grade 3-6 Ds went to school. yes, his writing was weak - but long story short the school did not care. He is bright and his strong cognitive abilities compensated for his poor writing.

Ex - math: he would get all the answers right, but lose marks for not explaining (in writing) his thought processes. He would get a "B" or "C".

The school did not really see the problem. Acording to them a "B" or "C" is just fine. He is meeting curriculum guidelines. There were kids in his class who had aspegers, behaviour issue, and a few who function across the board at really low levels. So a child who cannot write but is otherwise fine (or even academically strong)? They did not see the problem.

In any event, I am considerring getting handwriting without tears (3 grade level). I am not sure how i am going to talk him into doing it, but that is another issue
post #28 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraLoo View Post


ETA: I'm not sure about dysgraphia existing alone -- it is part of dyslexia, of course, but I think there are varying degrees of how dyslexia presents itself and how. Not an expert here!

Ohh...intersting. Ds definately does not have dyslexia (he reads, and always has, really well. In fact in grade 3 they tested him and said he read at a 13 yr old level ). So - does the fact that he can read mean he doesn't have dysgraphia (as it is part of dyslexia?)
post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraLoo View Post
LOL Rynna -- you crack me up! I think the big difference here is Bean is 5'ish and Kathy's son is 12. What's normal for a 5 year old becomes less typical for a 12 year old.

If it makes you feel any better, my ds' writing this past year (he had just turned 6) *really* improved. It almost looks perfect (maybe too perfect, IYKWIM.) I think you can totally relax and not worry about any OT intervention for awhile! Bean isn't that far behind.

ETA: I'm not sure about dysgraphia existing alone -- it is part of dyslexia, of course, but I think there are varying degrees of how dyslexia presents itself and how. Not an expert here!
Okay, I'll grant you that I have strange ideas about normal... but Mike and his father both have *unbelievably* bad handwriting. I mean, the first time I saw one of FIL's notes to himself, I couldn't figure out who had written it-- why would a second grader be writing a post-it note to FIL reminding him what time the Elder's Meeting was at church? It took a while for me to realize that FIL had written it, and a good six months before I realized that his handwriting *always* looked like that (it wasn't just a quickly scrawled note while he was rushing out the door or something). It's barely legible. Mike's handwriting *isn't* legible, not even to him a lot of the time. The only adult I know of who even compares is my mother, and she had a stroke which injured the right side of her brain (she's always been very left-handed). Even in that case, I can read my mother's handwriting and I can't read Mike's or FILs.

Not only is their handwriting truly awful; Neither of them seems to be capable of doing any better. I've asked Mike to write his grocery lists very carefully, but even doing the very best he can do, taking his time, paying attention... well, I'm lucky if I can read half of it. I usually end up re-writing the lists while I'm still at home.

So... I guess it's not just the fact that Bean's handwriting is atrocious that bothers me, but the well-established pattern of poor handwriting in Mike's family that has me concerned. I don't see it being all that likely to improve without some kind of intervention. Is it one of those things that will have to wait until he's twelve, or should I be intervening now?
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Ohh...intersting. Ds definately does not have dyslexia (he reads, and always has, really well. In fact in grade 3 they tested him and said he read at a 13 yr old level ). So - does the fact that he can read mean he doesn't have dysgraphia (as it is part of dyslexia?)
This is what I was wondering about. Bean reads very well, though... and I personally know several dyslexics who don't have any problems with handwriting. None of them can spell, which often leads to problems reading things that they've written, but they can have absolutely beautiful handwriting.
post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Ohh...intersting. Ds definately does not have dyslexia (he reads, and always has, really well. In fact in grade 3 they tested him and said he read at a 13 yr old level ). So - does the fact that he can read mean he doesn't have dysgraphia (as it is part of dyslexia?)
Here's some info. from the Eides -- lots of information on dysgraphia. You can pop into the dyselxia stuff, too.

http://mislabeledchild.com/html/Libr...ems/index.html
post #32 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraLoo View Post
Here's some info. from the Eides -- lots of information on dysgraphia. You can pop into the dyselxia stuff, too.

http://mislabeledchild.com/html/Libr...ems/index.html
What an amazing site. I recognise a lot of my son in there. Thank you!

Kathy
post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
: I have a bright boy who can be somewhat perfectionistic, and handwriting is a HUGE problem for him. It's only made more obvious when he's doing more advanced work-- he has absolutely no trouble reading on a third grade level or even spelling that well, but asking him to write a simple sentence is akin to asking him to cut off his fingers and eat them.

I need a better handle on the sorts of fine motor activities that will help him, I think. We are using Handwriting Without Tears, but it's still very difficult for him. He clearly needs more practice; I'm actually beginning to wonder about dysgraphia.
:

He's happily just finishing up The Goblet of Fire tonight but trying to get him to practice his printing is just painful. Not even for PS3 will he write a bit. He can write, he just doesn't like to much. I had a bit of luck with him copying the riddles from the Hobbit but that's about it.
Creativity, spelling and so forth is not the problem. His sentence structure is good and he can print nicely if he tries. He agrees with me that he's going to have to print more in second grade and that he needs to practice now before school starts but he won't.
I don't have the energy right now. I have so many things going on. I've done over 2 months of graveyard on my relief shift already (we are seriously understaffed). He's usually so easy going. sigh.

but I feel bad about it.
post #34 of 38
DS has Dyspraxia so writing is quite difficult for him. He could barely hold a pencil correctly until this last year and we still buy him the specialized grips to help him.
post #35 of 38
I am a special ed. teacher, and the only kids I see for writing are boys. One has dysgraphia, one has dyspraxia, and one has an anxiety disorder (lots of erasing and rewriting for perseverative and perfectionist reasons). For these three, learning to type and use a word processor has been magic. These are all bright boys with creative minds in 3-5th grades. They are all reading two or more years above grade level.

If they can't print legibly and reasonably fast by age 8-9, I stop torturing them with handwriting and get them on a typing program. I take dictation, whatever, to get them to enjoy the act of composing.

I have a son about to start third grade who does not have a problem with writing.

L.
post #36 of 38
I hope there's a great writing ed teacher in DS's school like this, Leatherette!

DS had to write quite a bit for a summer packet to be turned in today. He was really struggling with getting the writing perfect, erasing, etc.

For the stories, I set him up with Notepad on the computer (no spell-check or other distractions) and the strangest thing... he focused more on the story than getting everything perfect. He was misspelling words, and wasn't noticing--yay! I think one of the benefits to using the computer is that when he writes a letter, it doesn't always look like the letter (to him), but when he types it on-screen, the letters are formed and spaced perfectly.

Leatherette, I wonder if you use any particular software on the word processor? I found something called Read, Write, Type that looks fun, but I wonder if it is useful.
post #37 of 38
I'll have to look at that - we just use Microsoft Word. The typing program we use is Type To Learn 3.

Thanks for propping me up as a good writing teacher. I actually did not experience kids with this many writing-only issues until I came to my current school, and I have been doing lots of research, but basically I am flying by the seat of my pants and following the kids' leads.

I was an English major originally and I love writing, so it is important for me to see these kids love it, too.
post #38 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherette View Post
I'll have to look at that - we just use Microsoft Word. The typing program we use is Type To Learn 3.
I'm afraid to get him on Word b/c there are so many distracting buttons to click on, and he will get frustrated with the spell-check highlighting. I'll check out TTL3. Thanks!
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