Re-lactation, Induced Lactation and Adoptive Nursing Tribe - Page 5

[tiffani]

I can totally understand the road situation, because one false move and it's a potentially life threatening incident, but is the beach hard to climb to or have really crazy gigantic waves that will suddenly sweep in and take him out to sea? Some beaches are like that, and I can understand not wanting to hang there with a 3 year old, but maybe you could go to the beach with your dh, and see what your son will actually do in the waves, and maybe your dh can help him see (without holding his hand, just using a lot of observation and trial and error) how to navigate the waves... it's such a hard call with kids, because they're all so different, but sometimes too much handholding or preventing dangerous situations can make the kid not able to judge for themselves what is dangerous or not, and with a little guided space, maybe they'll figure it out?? It's hard to say, because if you DON'T protect them in certain situations it can be fatal, and it's hard to know exactly when they gain that understanding of their own vulnerability. It's particularly hard when you've got a baby strapped to you and you can't just bolt and grab them if they suddenly do something dangerous. so maybe between you and dh, you can spend some one-on-one with him at the beach, letting him find out for himself what the power of the ocean can do . I just hate to think of you not being able to go to the beach!! its such a kid friendly place most of the time!!

can you strap your baby onto your back yet? that makes it easier to deal with older kids...

enjoy the rainforest!

[SundayCrepes]

The 4 of us went to the beach tonight. The waves are pretty big. I wouldn't go past the shoreline myself. I did find out the pool has a gradient entry so I can take the 2 there by myself.

I was so tired this am that I actually drank a soda--something I usually avoid for nursing purposes. The caffeine helped plus my husband took our son on work errands so I took just the baby to the beach. It was good to have almost alone on the beach time.

Tomorrow is rainforest. Sunday is beach. Next week we can do the children's museum and pool time.

One of my donors emailed that she has an appointment to get the blood tests. I so appreciate her doing that. I just sit back and think how generous this person is being for my baby. That makes me feel good.

[SundayCrepes]

First the good news related to life in Puerto Rico. Then the "bad" news related to the difficulties of adoptive nursing.

The good news--by accident I have solved my biggest Puerto Rico problem. It's a pain pushing my (almost) 3 year old in the stroller over rugged sidewalks while wearing my baby in my mobywrap type carrier. It's okay, but I'm always afraid I'll drop her or something and it can be physically hard. Today we were going to walk to the grocery store. I left the wrap in the car which my husband has. I had packed the ergo in case we need it for our son in the airport. The baby is still too little to ride in the ergo. I haven't used it for my son in close to a year. Anyway, out of desperation I tried the baby in the ergo and she screamed. Then I tried my son--stroke of lucky genius. I wore him and pushed her in the stroller. Everyone, especially me, was happy. More importantly, everyone was safe. I prefer to wear my baby since she's still young and needing it, but my sanity won out. I feel a lot more mobile.

The bad news--I think the baby is addicted to the sns. I used to nurse her and then when she got frustrated and was pulling at my nipple, I'd supplement her. Now she starts to fuss immediately upon going to the breast. If I do "make" her nurse without the sns, she complains the whole time until she's so upset that she screams and won't nurse. I think she likes the extra flow of the sns. This could explain why we've gone from 2 or 3 ounces of frozen milk to 5 or 6 ounces each day. I want her to get as much fresh milk as possible because it's better for her, doesn't use up unnecessary frozen milk, and keeps my supply as high as possible. We're leaving here Thursday and will arrive in Denver on Friday. My plan is to pump like a well...what analogy works here? Pump like a bat, whatever that means. Anyways, my husband won't be working so he can look after our son. I can hide away, forget the relatives, and just pump. I'll give her all the milk I pump and see what happens. I just fear we have a sns addict on our hands. Any suggestions? (I'm afraid that yet another pumping plan will go away. Every time I've made a pumping plan, something has gotten in the way.)

[tiffani]

I don't have any experience with the sns or lactaid, but have you gone to the yahoo adoptive nursing support list? I'd track it down for you but I have to run -- pm ajabelly, she's on there too... lots of mamas with experience that will be able to help you I'm sure...

[azedazobollis]

Mybabysmama, You have some amazing adventures going on! I love reading about it! Good luck with the SNS, Im having a hard time with the tape and the tube.......


We have our baby!!!! Nursing at the breast is not going so great, but we have only been together for a day and a night. I just gave her only a bottle and she took 2.5 oz as oppose to the just over 1 that she takes in the SNS, so I must be providing something during those feedings. Her mouth is so small. She is just over 5lbs. at a week old.

[NC EcoMaMa]

Goats Rue is amazing for re lactation and for those who have never lactated before. It is also great for women with PCOS. I use it in conjunction with the fenugreek and other herbs.

[SundayCrepes]

Originally Posted by azedazobollis

Mybabysmama, You have some amazing adventures going on! I love reading about it! Good luck with the SNS, Im having a hard time with the tape and the tube.......


We have our baby!!!! Nursing at the breast is not going so great, but we have only been together for a day and a night. I just gave her only a bottle and she took 2.5 oz as oppose to the just over 1 that she takes in the SNS, so I must be providing something during those feedings. Her mouth is so small. She is just over 5lbs. at a week old.

Congratulations!!!!

Regarding the tape. I don't use it. I wait until she's nursing then slip the tube in her mouth. It's not the easiest thing, but I find it easier than taping and trying to get the tube and nipple in her mouth all at the same time.

I am nursing and typing 1 handed. Let me know if you want more sns tips, especially leaking. Oh, I don't attach it to my clothes, I hold it in my hand.

Glad you enjoy our adventures. We are now in Denver.

[azedazobollis]

mybabysmama, OK, I didnt use the tape- feeding went waaaaay better! The tube did slip out a few times but I figured out to put it in the side and then it stayed. I have an SNS that is a soft bottle that can be squeezed, and I did that when she stopped sucking, then she started again.

I still have to hold my breast while she is latched, because she's so small, but Im sure in time, as she grows....

Now, I guess I have to reevaluate my goals. Do I want to use the bottle at all? Are you using bottles? If you arent, how do you do nighttime feedings? Can you lay down with the SNS? I cant, I tried. But then again, I was able to ditch the tape and didnt think I could.

[SundayCrepes]

I don't think I started side-lying to nurse until my baby's were about 6 weeks.

I don't usually need to use the sns most nights. When I need to, I usually sit up because I am too uncoordinated at night to use it side lying. Someone I know uses the lactaid side lying at night. She says she sometimes will lose an ounce or so doing that. However, I can feed side lying with it for naps. I am using the temporary sns, so it might be easier. I do not attach the bottle to me. I hold it in my hand so I can place it wherever it is convenient for me.

One of the reasons people prefer the lactaid is that the tube goes down into a bag so you do not get constant dripping from the pressure of the suspended bottle. Since I hold the bottle in my hand, I hold it lower than the baby so she has to work to get the milk, which makes her work harder which gives me more stimulation.

A word about squeezing the bottle. Remember it is normal for babies to take breaks while they are nursing, so don't feel you baby needs to nurse constantly.

I don't know if this applies to the regular sns, but with the temporary one I had leakage problems. What I eventually realized is it leaks when I have used it once, had extra milk so refrigerated it, and am now reusing the bottle of milk. I have to clean the cap, the diaphragm, and the bottle top. Doing this keeps it from leaking most of the time.

Personally I avoid bottles like the plague. Every time the baby nurses with the sns, there is potential for me to be supplying fresh milk--even if it is only drops. If I use a bottle, I am not making any fresh milk.

Check out asklenore.com. It has lots of experienced adoptive mamas there.

[azedazobollis]

I've been getting a little more sleep and Ive cut my coffee consumption down to 2 cups a day........ I am an avid coffee drinker- 8 cups a day.... what can I say, I have a keurig machine and it's a guilty pleasure for me. However, after her being awake 2 nights in a row......

Wednesday's nose is really stuffy. I have used the boogy baster (bulb syringe) with her and some hylands sniffles and sneezes homeopathic pellets.

Nursing with the SNS is getting easier. Im using it all day and bottlefeeding in the evening and night. I am blessed to have a frozen supply from donor mammas and I hope to get more donor milk to keep her on breast milk. I must be getting my period soon- next week because my supply have dropped again like it does every 4-5 weeks. She is gaining well, Im not going to stress about it. I dont expect to produce a full supply. I love the breastfeeding relationship and convenience of the boob. :

[SundayCrepes]

I think your attitude is great. There is a thread under adopting right now where several women have said how bad they felt that they didn't make a full supply. Your attitude is making it work.

In other news, I took an accidental overdose of my domperidone this morning. I measure out my 160 mg for the day and put it in a medicine box. This keeps me knowing if I've taken my doses or not. Well, I had it all measured out and instead of putting it in the box, I put it in my mouth and drank a glass of water. I realized immediately what I had done. I called poison control. The main concern is if I start twitching. They said the medicine's effects peak at about an hour--which is now. I'm guessing I'm not going to have any problems. I am curious if this will make a difference in my milk supply.

[azedazobollis]

How did you feel the rest of the day? I take 50 mg at a time 3 times a day.


Wednesday isnt nursing so well. She is very congested. We go to the dr. today.

[SundayCrepes]

No problems at all. I just skipped my afternoon dose.

Sorry Wednesday's congested.

My little one has decided side feeding at night is no longer acceptable. She wants me to sit up. I think the reason we supplement with 6 ounces a day instead of 2 is she likes the added flow of the sns. Fortunately she does not insist on the sns at night. In the 3 years I've been getting up multiple times a night I've never been tired during the day. However, after 3 years, plus my last trimester of pregnancy when I peed so much at night, I am getting tired of getting up during the middle of the night. Anyways, night sitting feeding versus night side feeding is way inconvenient.

Regarding taping the sns. We did fine without taping until she turned around 4 months. Now her suck is so much stronger that I have to hold onto the tube so she doesn't suck it in and down her throat. I'm contemplating switching to the lactaid, but I'm comfortable with our system and don't know if I want to change.

[azedazobollis]

Wednesday had her dr.'s appointment today with our family dr. He put silver nitrate on her little stump in the belly button. She has been asleep the whole day and hasnt nursed. I got 4 bottles in her at less than 2 ounces each feed. She's been very tired today. She is gaining .75 oz a day and she should be gaining 1 oz a day. So, Im to up her intake. No one said inducing lactation is easy and I am struggling. The SNS makes her terribly fussy with all the fiddling to get it placed correctly. Then, she is so tired working to get a decent amount. She averages an ounce via supplementer. She takes about 2.5 ounces by bottle. I have tried to finish her off with the bottle after a nursing but she's exhausted by then and wont suck. Im not sure whether it is counterproductive to go back and forth every other feeding by nursing/ bottle feeding. She is 3 weeks and 2 days old and weighs 6 lbs 2 oz. -height 20" She is a sleepy babe. She went almost 3 days without pooping. She just pooped tonight. He mentioned a fortifier as a possibility if her next weight is still slow. Before I go on, I love my dr. He was my backup for my last homebirth. He has been with us for 7 years as our family dr. He recommended adding vitamin D drops to her milk as she is African American and may need that through our dark winter. Also, he wants us to add fish oil and probiotics- which we had been doing the probiotics. I just ordered some infant fish oil from vitacost.

I was only able to pump 5ml when I pumped this evening. Im afraid there are too many changes for her. I need to re-evaluate my goals and her abilities. I'm also considering adding some formula to her breastmilk to boost the calories. With her low birth weight, if she were on formula, he probably would have put her on the 22 or 24 cal. formula at this point. I have Baby's Own Organic. I know they also have a 2 calorie fortifier with DHA. I could chekc that out at Baby's RUs tomorrow.

Any thoughts?

[SundayCrepes]

Sounds like you've got a lot of pressures/concerns. Frankly, I'm not worried by anything you wrote.

I question the weight gain concerns. My daughter weighed 6-5 at birth. Initially she was gaining about 8 ounces a week, but then it slowed drastically very quickly and settled in at 4 ounces a week. At first I was concerned at the decrease, but I looked at her growth curve. A small baby isn't likely to gain as much weight as a larger baby. When I calculated 4 ounces a week for a month, then 2 months, it kept her on her growth curve. Every medical person I know (and I am an RN that used to work NICU) says 0.5 to 1 ounces of weight gain a day is the desired goal. So, Wednesday sure seems to be doing great if she's consistently gaining .75 ounces a day.

Remember, with the supplementer, you are supplying milk, so she will take less with the supplementer than the bottle. When I supplement, my baby takes 1/2 to 1 ounce. If I'm gone and my husband bottle feeds her, she takes 3 ounces. So, it sounds like you're just producing milk for your daughter. And maybe the reason she won't take more is not exhaustion, but rather her tummy is filled with your milk. If you're really concerned, hook up with a lactation consultant that has a digital scale. They will weight the baby before you nurse and after you nurse (without the sns) to see how much milk you made.

Regarding the pooping, it is common for breastfed babies to go a week between poops. I've heard as long as 22 days. Now, is Wednesday getting formula so that changes some of the rules? Even if she is, hold off before you get too freaked out about that. They say breastfed babies should poop at least 3 times a day until 6 weeks, then they can spread out to once a week. My son did that. My daughter went to once a week poops at 2 weeks and then pooped out a really long tootsie roll not a breastfed baby poop. All so against the books, but her body is not following the book and she is very healthy. At 4.5 months she weighs 11 pounds, 11 ounces--she's in the 5th percentile for weight and the 75th percentile for length--that's not in the books either.

I don't understand the fish oil. Does he want her to get DHA? Does he want calories? If it's for DHA, I just take supplements myself (as does one of my donors.) Actually, my lactation consultant who really knows her stuff said all I have to do is eat a couple extra eggs each week and she'll get enough DHA, but I'm hedging my bets.

Maybe try the lactaid instead of the sns. I've heard babies like them better.

So, you sound overwhelmed based on what your doctor told you. I don't know your baby's specifics, but you sound like you're doing many of the same things we did and we've gotten to 4.5 months, rolling over, and putting pizza and bread in her mouth stages without any problems. (I took the pizza out of her mouth. My husband let her gnaw the bread before he took it away from her.)

[tiffani]

azedabollis, I'm just popping in to congratulate you on your new baby!!!! so exciting!!!

I second everything mybabysmama said -- as you well know, babies are all so different, but it sounds like your little one is doing well. My son (fully breastfed, totally healthy in every way) pooped only every few days, sometimes up to a week, and it was never an issue. Once they start solids it can be more of a concern, but milk-only babies often poop pretty infrequently. watch for wet diapers and any other signs of dehydration more than watching the scale.

again, congratulations!! I'm so happy for you!! :

mybabysmama, how are things going for you guys?

[azedazobollis]

OK, so I had two days of terrible feeding. Then she woke up and decided to eat. So, I have new bottles- Born Free. Still a little faster flow than I would like but so far the slowest and widest and breastlike - and glass- I like the glass. I have moments to post and the kids are nuts behind me right now, so quickly and incorrectly I write/.


No binkies. That is rule #1. But Ive replaced her binky need with a nipple shield. I have a few more SNS's of the ones I prefer so, no more frantic searching. The bottles of SNS are ready to go and it's fine if they are cold. The breast will warm them. Tape or no tape? Either- it depends per feeding but I have little pieces ripped on my nursing pillow ready to go. I finish off with the bottle so she gets enough milk in a day. In the morning, I nurse without the SNS. If she is cranky and doesnt want to nurse, I am using a nipple shield. This is how I got her to nurse again- by putting on the shield. Sometimes I can take the shield off and she stays.


We are getting there.... slowly. I weighed her before and after feeding her and she gained half an ounce. Does anyone know how to figure out from that how much milk I gave her? Half an ounce of solid weight is not liquid weight so I dont know.

Still waiting for my period- maybe I wont get it but my body is acting like it's coming...... I had the drop in milk too.

Just checking in....

[azedazobollis]

Ahhh, I think I just figured it out with a conversion chart- 14ml- hmmm. that is half an ounce. Im confused.

She was 6 lbs 6 oz before feeding and 6 lbs 6.5 oz after.

[SundayCrepes]

When we weighed my baby, the LC considered an ounce of weight gain to be an ounce of milk. Close enough to not squabble.

I'll give an update on us when baby not fussing and I'm not pumping.

[SundayCrepes]

In general things are going well here. We got home from Puerto Rico and Denver with my remaining milk still frozen. The baby has been taking about 6 ounces of frozen breastmilk a day. I think she takes this much because she likes the flow higher with the sns than just me. I think she'd only need 2 or 3 ounces to get enough nutrition. Typically at night she doesn't need anything but me, though she's starting to want me to sit to nurse rather than to lay on our sides.

I finally got a chance to pump this past weekend. This was the first time I've gotten to do that more than randomly since the baby was born. She will be 5 months in 4 days. (My husband was canoeing so the kids and I stayed with my parents. We did not leave their house and I had someone to take the kids all day long so I could pump.)

On day 1 I pumped a gazillion times and got 55 cc of milk that I fed back to her with the supplementer thereby decreasing her intake of frozen milk by that about.
The 2nd day I pumped a gazillion times and got 65 cc.
Day 3 I pumped even more and got 100 cc. I had to feed her more that day than normal since I think I'd pumped myself dry.
Yesterday I didn't have anyone to help me and I only pumped 35 cc.
Today we weren't home much and I wasn't able to pump.

For those who may be reading this for their education, I look back at when she first started getting frustrated with my supply then stopped gaining weight. I wish I had pumped then. It didn't occur to me and the LLL people I was talking to were so positive that they didn't help me come up with a plan if things went wrong. Then when I emailed my LC, she was so harsh on the importance of pumping that I got overwhelmed. Her recommendation was 20 minutes after every feeding and also supplement with 2 sessions of 5 minutes between each feeds. Yeah, right. I have a 3 year old and a baby. Tiffani here suggested just nursing more often. That was the easiest seeming, and I was able to do it for a couple days, but that plan also got lost in real life. I was so confused with so many suggestions, or lack thereof, that I didn't really do anything. If I had just tried to pump 4 or 5 times a day back then, 30 minutes after nursing for 7 minutes each, I wonder if I could have increased my supply enough and kept my baby from being addicted to the sns. Also, I'm guessing my supply has dropped since she consistently takes about 6 extra ounces a day.

I do have 2 donors lined up. One has given me two deliveries of over 150 ounces between the 2 deliveries. Another has done the blood work and has emailed that she was pumping for me. I need to contact her. I wish I could do this on my own, and still grieve the thaw of 75% of my stored milk. My biggest concern right now is getting her to 7 months without formula--the age for maximum IQ development via breastmilk. After that my goal will be to get her to a year without formula. I've got enough breastmilk in the freezer to get her to 6 months, so my first goal seems likely. As long as my donors nor I don't have any supply/delivery issues, I think we can get to a year formula free.

I am contemplating trying the lactaid and seeing how I like it compared to the temporary sns we have been using.. Conquering it should be easy, but it just feels like one more thing on my plate. Given how I use the sns, I'm not sure which would be better for stimulating me and giving her as slow a flow as possible. Any thoughts?