why not formula?

[mamasprout]

so can you give me your reasons for avoiding formula if needed (DS is not gaining weight as fast as the doc would like, and he seems to sleep better when I give him a bottle of pumped milk before bed)?

I want to avoid it because:
-of all the good stuff in breastmilk (but he'd still be getting primarily breastmilk)
-possibility of allergens (but I'd probably use a non-dairy, non-soy based formula).
-breastmilk just feels so much better

DH is ready to supplement, I'm not able to pump a lot (I have been working on increasing supply) and I go back to working outside the home in 2 weeks.

The pediatrician said we can wait another 2 weeks for a weight check, but we have been dealing with this concern for 3 weeks or so.

Finally, any recommendations on hypo-allergenic brands?

[Collinsky]

Another reason is that it can cause mamas supply to drop a bit, and if it is early on and the supply isn't well established, can cause a lot of problems in that area. In many cases, if there is an actual issue with the baby's weight (and many times there isn't) this can be because mama has a low supply or because baby has a latch/sucking issue - and formula in a bottle doesn't help that. In fact, it makes it worse.

I'm not opposed to judicious use of formula if necessary. I'm opposed to its use when it's not necessary, and especially when it is harmful to the establishment of bfing.

I would say to wait at least 2 weeks (unless your son is actually in bad shape, which it doesn't sound like he is at this point) and during that time focus on getting your supply up. Take lots of fenugreek, until you smell like maple syrup, and put your baby to your breast a lot. Pumping isn't as efficient at stimulating/draining the breast as baby is. Could you pump on one side while baby is on the other? This way you're getting used to pumping, you're building a store of milk, and you're stimulating your breasts to make even more.

Do you think that having had a bottle has affected your baby's latch, so that he's not nursing quite as effectively as he could?

[mamasprout]

Thanks for your reply. He has always had a good latch and I don't think that has changed. I'm starting to think I'm a slow milk letter-outer . In the past weeks as he has gotten more distractable, I haven't paid as much attention and the length of nursing sessions have gone down...possibly impacting supply.

I pump while nursing him each morning and get ~2 oz that I was storing but now give him later in the day. I also pump after feeding him at least 2x in the day (but don't get anything - it is just to help stimulate production).

Since our doc said we could wait a little more I might just feed DS a lot and work on supply. Developmentally he is doing GREAT. It is just hard when he gulps down the extra ounces in the evening and could take more! But he is a very happy baby and I think he'd let me know if he were vey hungry...I hope.

[Ruthla]

Personally, I'd stop the before-bed bottle (and save up all that ebm for when you're at work!) and let him nurse more at night if he wakes more often. The frequent nursing is better for your supply anyway.

I'm not opposed to formula supplementation when absolutely needed- but you're not currently at that point. Even "not gaining as fast as the dr would like" may not be problematic, if he's gaining at the right rate for HIM.

[paquerette]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

Even "not gaining as fast as the dr would like" may not be problematic, if he's gaining at the right rate for HIM.

: I wondered about that, too. Many doctors just don't understand and want breastfed babies to gain as fast as formula fed babies, which just isn't right. Is your doctor using the WHO charts modeled for bf babies, or is it the standard ff chart? I'd make sure of that first of all. Bring in the WHO charts if you have to. And besides that, you also have to look at things like the average sizes of people in your family, and how you and DH and siblings grew, etc. In our family, we all start out as string beans until 7 or 8 or so. Trust me, you'd never know it looking at DH or I now.

Also, even non dairy, non soy formula still have allergens (mostly corn, I think). I think there might be prescription stuff that's broken down into bits completely unrecognizable as the original foods, but you're talking hundreds of dollars at that point.

[thepeach80]

How much is he gaining? His weight gain may not even be a problem, it may just be a DR who expects fat babies and not all of us have that, lol. Or only have 1 and then 2 skinny ones, go figure.

I'm not opposed to formula either when it needs to be used, baby needs to eat and if that's what he needs, use it. All of my kids have needed formula and my dd went to 100% formula at 9.5 mos and is still on it at 21 mos b/c of her allergies. For hypo formulas, your only options are Nutramigen or Alimentum. Alimentum RTF (ready to feed) is supposed to be corn protein free so that's one less allergen, but considering the amount of corn in most adult diets, I wouldn't worry about this one really. We use Neocate b/c my kids react to the 2 I listed b/c they do still have some dairy in them, but 95% of babies can handle them.

[Herausgeber]

Why do you plan to use the allergen-free formulas? They are so much more expensive than regular formula, they taste even less like breast-milk and most babies just don't need them. (Assuming you even need to supplement at all -- and from what you told us, I don't think you do.)

[mamasprout]

OK, so how did you know your babies needed formula? I agree that it isn't obvious for us yet, but I also don't like the thought that DS is hungry all the time. He has gotten much harder for DH to soothe in the evenings - this may just be because he is such a boob guy, but it gives DH ammunition to convince me to supplement (almost impossible to soothe - full-tilt scream for half an hour while I was at yoga the other night).

I'm thinking hypo-allergenic b/c my family has a lot of food allergies. I didn't like picking up the can in the grocery store and seeing the first ingredient is corn-syrup though! Not leaning towards that brand.

[thepeach80]

I have insufficient supply, w/ Ilana she stopped gaining well and fell off the charts completely. She slept most of her day, didn't interact at all w/ people and eventually the ped said we should try and supplement. We did and she gained a # in the first week. She's one of those rare 'happy to starve' babies though, most babies will let you know. My DH has never been able to do much w/ the babies when they are little. If you come home and you can calm him and he's not still screaming after he eats, chances are you won't need to supplement. All hypo formulas are pretty much made out of corn syrup, there's not much else you can put in it. Ilana is on Neocate and it's completely corn based since it's completely dairy/soy free.

[PatioGardener]

In case it may help, here is the WHO chart for boys: http://www.who.int/childgrowth/stand...boys_p_0_6.pdf

The important point is not which percentile the baby is at, but if they have stayed on the same curve.

If baby was dropping off the curve, personally, first I would try to increase my milk supply first (using domperidone if needed), and make sure that baby was transfering well (rule out tongue-tie etc.) Then if I was 'maxed out' in milk production I would try to supplement with donor milk (hopefully no allergen reaction, or a dairy free donor if needed), and if that was not possible or not enough I would go with formula.

Have you seen an LC or LLL leader lately to double check the latch/transfer?

[MCKH]

Originally Posted by Herausgeber

Why do you plan to use the allergen-free formulas? They are so much more expensive than regular formula, they taste even less like breast-milk and most babies just don't need them. (Assuming you even need to supplement at all -- and from what you told us, I don't think you do.)

Yes.

Allergen-free formulas should not be used unless your doctor recommends them. Although all formula is nutritionally inferior to breast milk, hypoallergenic formulas are made with man-made fats and other stuff that is totally unnatural and these should be avoided unless absolutely required.

[abc123xyz]

My son didn't gain well and they too, recommended formula. That's when I switched to a breastfeeding supportive dr., worked on supply issues using herbs, foods, and anything that would help, and just nursed around the clock. I cannot pump milk to save my life. Never have, never will be able to I guess since I am 10 months into this and still can't get but 1 oz from both sides and am still incredibly full. I avoid formula like the plague because of all the recalls due to metals, foreign objects and toxins being found. Also, because I can't imagine giving my baby things from the ingerdients list I can't even pronounce. We are organic and additive free in our eating and to think that I would give my baby something not along those line is terrible to me! All that being said, if I was going to use something as a supplement to make me feel better I'd use ultra care by metagneics. And I'd mix it with rice milk and flax oil or a good cod liver oil. And by the way, my son is still a slow gainer in the 3rd% and I am fine with it. Daddy is lean and I was lean at that age so it's just his normal. I may supplement with that instead of milk later on but for now, I am confident that my milk is sufficient!! Hope you are too!!!

[bmcneal]

I knew I needed to use formula when I was nursing DD all the time, pumping when she was asleep, using herbs, foods, everything I could think of to get my milk supply up/get her to latch, and she *still* lost almost a pound. Not just stayed the same, but she was down lower than her birth weight when she was 3 months old. I really hate that I had to give her formula, but I'd tried everything else.

[jaxxy]

Someone said to stop the bottle before bed and I agree. It's not fun to get up with the baby all night but it's what you need to do to keep your supply up. People think getting up to nurse is crazy after the first couple of months but not if your baby is EBF.

[RoadWorkAhead]

Actually if there is any family history of food allergies, hypo or even elemental formulas should be first stop (If breastmilk is not available). They greatly reduce the occurence of FAs in children with a higher likelihood of FAs.

That said, I'd stop the night bottle, save the milk, take lots of fenugreek, alfalfa, etc. and see what happens. If you can't produce enough pumping to meet your DS's demands then worry about this, but that night time hour is hard for lots of babies, and its a great supply boosting time.

Also, have you ruled out any allergies now? DD wasn't supplemented until we got her tube, but her growth chart changed drastically, her contentedness changed, and frankly she ate like a horse or not at all. She was constantly either nuring because she was miserable or refusing to nurse because she was miserable, but if she had entertainment (Ppl to flirt with, mom and dads full attention, etc.) she played straight through the pain. GI reactions were what gave away why she wasn't growing, and her growth started to slow around 8 weeks, with the marked drops coming a little later and FTT that became noted at 12 months officially after a flat line from 9 months on. Hopefully this is all me typing pointlessly, but since she mention a fmaily history its worth pointing out.

[red17]

As a pp mentioned, is your Ped pro BF? Are they using the WHO weight guidelines or the ones put out for babies who are FF? This can be a challenge since so many Peds are simply not aware : of the difference between the two charts -- they SHOULD be since they are supposed to be specialists on all things related to a baby, but trust me they are NOT!!

I also agree not to use the bottle at night ... while it sounds good to have the babe be fuller and perhaps get more sleep, right now you want to increase your supply. By getting in another bfing session you will be doing just that and feeding your ds. BTW, BF babes wake sooner because BM breaks down faster than formula. If your darlin babe sleeps 4 to 5 hrs, a good Ped will tell you that is considered "sleeping through the night" .

Have you tried herbs? There are many that can help increase milk supply. I'd first start taking fenugreek, blessed thistle & alfalfa (each at least 3x a day), and drinking Mother's Milk tea throughout the day. Traditional Medicinals makes the Mother's Milk tea. I was a low supply mama and know it can be draining to remember to take all the herbs, drink enough water, get enough rest all while taking care of your darlin babe and pump after each nursing session. Definately worth it, but exhausting too. to you mama. You are doing what is best for you and your babe.

There are tinctures from www.herblore.com and other herbal companies who specialize in breastmilk supply issues: Gaia Garden, Motherlove, and others. When I first started using the tincture from Herblore my supply significantly improved:. I continued to use it all throughout my bfing relationship w/my dd. Pam Caldwell at that company was wonderful in helping me determine what may help. Sometimes all we need is someone to help point the way, othertimes supply issues are too challenging .

The book Mother Food: A Breastfeeding Diet Guide with Lactogenic Foods and Herbs is wonderful for giving you good foods that will help with supply issues.

Another thing, at night many babes have difficulty staying calm. Some call it colic or being a fussy babe. It may not be related to being hungry. It may just be that he thinks if you are feeding it to him it will make him feel better. My DD went through a short bout of this and at first we did think she was hungry but really it was her stomach. We gave her Gripe water which helped. Additionally, we used the methods outlined in "The happiest Baby on the Block" video. There are 5 S's to help (my order may be off): 1 - Swaddle the babe 2 - Put the baby on his Side 3. Make a Shhh sound in babes ear 4. Let babe Suck your finger 5. Move the babe in a Swinging motion -- they really like it when Dad does this because they tend to swing them in a longer or bigger way.

Good luck Mama. I wish you all the milk your ds needs and a bit more for the future! Let us know how you do.

Originally Posted by mamasprout

...
I pump while nursing him each morning and get ~2 oz that I was storing but now give him later in the day. I also pump after feeding him at least 2x in the day (but don't get anything - it is just to help stimulate production).