Please comment on Susun Weed letter titled "Candida is a helper. It is keeping you healthy!" - Page 14

[nicolelynn]

Originally Posted by Panserbjørne

It's not about identifying ONE instance.

I still think this is missing the point. One round of antibiotics isn't enough to throw an entire system off kilter if it wasn't off to begin with. NOTHING EXISTS IN A VACUUM. It's not just about antibiotics at birth, vaccines following, birth control pills etc. etc. etc. It's just not. It's ALL the things that break down the system over time and where your vulnerabilities inherently lie. Many people have yeast, but some present in other ways. Even if you have yeast, it presents differently in each person do to their underlying constitution. All I'm saying is that it's a mistake in ANYTHING to just treat the symptoms. Everyone will react differently and everyone may require different treatment. If you have yeast and metals the treatment is far different than for simply yeast. If you have yeast and parasites, again...different treatment.

I just tend to look at the bigger picture.

I have actually advocated the use of Nystatin here and in other places before. I have also utilized ThreeLac, both personally and with my clients. I'm not needing a lecture on the behavior of yeast, all I'm saying is that it's a mistake to look only at the yeast. If you miss the bigger picture you could struggle your whole life. That's all.

Wow, I'm so glad this thread got bumped up...I didn't see it before! I have had digestive problems and weight loss for the past 6 months and just got diagnosed 2 months ago with blastocystis hominis parasite and intestinal yeast (the hospital lab test didn't say which kind). I have researched and researched and have tried a couple of things. I have consulted with a DO, naturopath and Dr Omar Amin of the Parasitology Center in Arizona.

I have been set on avoiding drugs to just treat the symptoms. I thought I was fit as a fiddle until this happened, but I should have realized something was off with my body as I have HORRIBLE teeth (between age 22-27 I had every molar composite filled, root canaled, crowned or extracted) even though I eat healthier than most people I know. So I am trying to focus on building up my system. Though I have stayed on veggie ferments I have avoided kombucha, sourdough bread and the like but think I am just going to have to try them again. Cheese I react to with diarreha 30 mins after eating or acid reflux...probably because casein is difficult for my compromised gut to digest. Yogurt gives me mild loose stools the next day and initially I thought it was a dairy sensitivity in general but I think it is just die-off and will slowly build that back up. I have a huge aversion to kefir (as good as I know it is) so I'll continue to avoid that.

What are your thoughts on the difference between treating just yeast vs yeast and parasites?

[Calm]

I have not read this thread in a while, but this caught my eye today:

One round of antibiotics isn't enough to throw an entire system off kilter if it wasn't off to begin with...

I'm a naturopath, here's my page on fungus/yeast (ain't finished yet, but readable), just as the credentials I can muster right now. What you've written there is actually not true, at least not in my experience with many different people of all ages including newborn. One round of antibiotics, especially broad spectrum but certainly not limited to that, is quite certainly enough to throw the system out of whack, all alone, without any other thing at all in a healthy person or baby.

The reason is quite simple - if antibiotics were not effective enough to wipe out a whole colony, we would still die from bacterial infections. It's very job is to wipe out large numbers and whole species of bacteria. We take a whole course of abx to make sure we nail the whole lot of them, not just some, not just a select species but a whole swag of bacteria. Even if (and this has actually been proven many times) you live with the Hunzas or some other pure community or tribe once those bacteria are dead, the balance is thrown off allowing the pH to alter, the system to shift, the microorganisms to move around, and further bacteria to get sick. Which causes a catch 22 and takes an awesome effort and much time to correct.

Another issue is that certain species can be killed that create totally, seemingly unrelated problems. For instance, Oxalobacter formigenes (mentioned on my page) is a bacteria whose job it is to break down oxalate (oxalic acid) which is found in things like spinach. Without it, we cannot break this down and calcium oxalate builds up in the kidneys - kidney stones. Treatment with this bacteria starts breaking down oxalate again, although it doesn't help the kidneys very much by then. So, with just one dose of antibiotics you will get rid of not just a whole species of the bad guys but so many of these good guys who do little jobs like factory workers. One thing goes off and the whole system starts to malfunction from the head to the toes, and every organ is affected.

Antibiotics are man made, and that is their major problem. "Just one thing" in nature is usually not enough to throw a body out of whack, true. But just one man made chemical IS enough, if it is the right chem in the right dose. Antibiotics are largely fungal in nature. They are mycotoxins. Penicillin for example is a chemical released by fungus to fight bacteria and man harnessed this. However, they don't dose you in a natural amount, in the amount you find in nature or in the average human gut. The dose of mycotoxin delivered in an antibiotic is massive, and very unnatural.

These guys don't just start breeding again and hey, all is well. No matter how healthy you were (for example, if a person takes ABX accidentally, which has happened a lot, strangely, and become chronically ill - from ONE PILL. They don't even have to finish the course.)

However, I very much agree with when you said this:

All I'm saying is that it's a mistake in ANYTHING to just treat the symptoms.

I get frustrated with both the allopathic doctor AND The naturopathic one as they so often fall on polar sides of this issue. The allopath will almost exclusively treat symptoms. The naturopath almost exclusively treats cause. Both of those approaches irritate the heck out of me. It isn't an either/or situation. The naturopath gets so caught up in cause they forget the suffering and how hard some of the treatments can be, and how long they can take. They then blame the client for non-compliance when they can't stick at some ridiculous diet for three months or longer.

We must consider quality of life! We must ease suffering and find treatments that don't impact a person's life too heavily. That's where my preferences come in. I believe you can do both: treat cause and symptoms. Sounds obvious but as mentioned, it really doesn't seem to be to either side of the healing coin.

By the same token, I've too often seen symptoms ease while treating cause, and vice versa although not as often. As a mother who cannot stand to see my children suffering, I go straight to the throat every time when treating them when they are sick. Not their throat of course , but the bug's throat. When they get sick, (and I do not give my children abx, EVER) I know that it is what you mentioned - an imbalance that was there waiting to happen. Maybe too much sugar gave the yeast a party, maybe a necessary bacteria moved somewhere it shouldn't be due to a food preservative... whatever it is, there is a cause. I can remove it, or whatever must be done but at the same time, I cut the legs right out from under the little bugstards with all out war. I force my children into fevers, I have potato wraps, garlic, oregano oil, tinctures, nystatin if necessary... I have it all going on but my kids are sick for hours, not days. But I also treat symptoms. Luckily, many natural treatments for cause actually have symptoms treatment built in. Ms Nature was very thorough and clever in that respect. But I'll use willow bark or whatever other symptom easer I have, and I will use creams for skin things, knowing it will do nothing for cause... I ease suffering basically. That's important, it's rule number one.

I offer this approach to others, and most take it. In fact, I can count on one hand the amount of people who have chosen to treat slowly when given the option to do it fast and nasty. Even though I explain that the healing crisis will be freaky horrible they still choose it. I think we secretly all know the body can rejuvenate fast and is limited only by our imaginations really.

Back to the issue at hand, I get what you are saying about root cause and not just treating symptoms. But I have to disagree that there is always a bigger cause than the abx itself. It is an atomic bomb on our body. It IS powerful enough to make that mess all on its own. Really. So sometimes, treating the cause is actually just treating the gut imbalance itself. Because the resulting pH imbalance, sugar cravings, metal dumping, cellular sluggishness and so on is actually a symptom of the gut imbalance in many cases, contrary to popular naturopathic wisdom. For most people however, you are correct. Because most of us these days have a measurable imbalance already going on in our bodies like a time bomb waiting to go off. When we take ABX we will not bounce back quite as readily as our healthful counterparts, we will struggle terribly, just as we will on the pill and while on steroids etc because of the underlying issues.

[Panserbjorne]

I'm not sure we are saying different things. We just have different perspectives. My children have never had antibiotics either, and I never allow suffering. I just treat a different way. I don't have the Descartes view of the body. I do my best to listen to what the body is saying and support it in it's reaction. HOW I support is different (slightly!) from what you do but regardless their "illnesses" (of which there are few) last a fraction of the time as anyone else's kids. I agree that most of what we see are symptoms and therefore I can offer comfort and palliate without suppression.

Never in a million years would I suggest that antibiotics are health-giving. However I tend to take a bigger picture approach here. One round, while it is enough to alter things still doesn't speak to the basic point of WHY they were necessary. That's all I'm saying. We need to look at the big picture and understand how much our bodies are struggling and support them on a journey to wellness. I think it's very easy to miss this point when we are chasing symptoms (not that Jeanine does that at all-I'm speaking generally.)

I see this all the time, not only in my practice but in those of friends and colleagues. I see them looking at conditions and naming them...chasing the invaders off and boosting immunity. Generally what I see is skewed systems that shouldn't be boosted! Then the sickness just gets worse since instead of bringing them back to Th1 function where they belong we strengthen the Th2 response. IgA levels plummet, IgG levels rise, yeast flourishes as a result and people spiral down the cascade of food allergies, blocked detox pathways, metal accumulation etc. Most of these things begin even before birth and that NEEDS to be acknowledged.

Yes, a child with a wonderful birth at home has a better chance-but they were still grown in almost all of our cases in damaged bodies. Let's say for a second that a child is born to a *relatively* healthy mother-she still generally has had vaccines, abx, medications in her life. But let's just pretend she has a fabulously strong constitution and has weathered it well. Then the baby is born with no intervention and has primary contact with mom(their inherent flora is altered by having contact with practitioners or even other people-babies are meant to be with MOM to colonize properly), no vaccines are administered, they are exclusively breastfed etc. Let's just say that this child experiences ideal circumstances, is happy, loved, well nourished and has one round of abx at some point. Is this enough to throw the system off kilter? Yes, it is. Is it enough to damage the system for life? I dont' believe it is. I believe that our bodies are constantly searching for balance and that healing is always it's goal. With a singular assault (which is almost impossible since all of us experienced two women's bodies before our own which DOES have an impact on our make up) assuming that everything else is in line the body will heal. Again, my perspective. The problem lies in the fact that NONE of us have one assault.

This is where I look to a deeper way of seeing things and why I see energy, structure and nutrition as inextricably linked in wellness. I don't believe that life should be a struggle and I don't believe that people should be on horribly restrictive diets, thousands of supplements or have to get treatments weekly. I believe that attention to the individual on all three levels will bring healing.

It also doesn't address the changes at the biochemical level that we can bring (both through energy and structural manipulation) to bring our systems back into balance. IT is quite possible to bring the body from a sympathetic response (which will allow yeast to flourish, imbalances to spiral out of control, digestive problems, adrenal issues etc.) back to the parasympathetic. Given that we have to recognize that's it's not all about nutrition and attacking imbalances. IF we can give the body the tools to function properly-it will. Nutrition, while it's the foundation for health is not the only player.

So again, I will submit that we are not saying different things. I think we may believe similar things and are discussing it on different levels. I dont' disagree with anything you said, though my path in guiding people and the one I took myself is slightly different. It also speaks to our different backgrounds. However, as I said before and will say again anyone would be lucky to have you as a practitioner. You are wonderfully committed and totally brilliant. I feel lucky to be able to converse with you!

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by bluebell

yes i've tried the aajonus custard with papaya but that gave my blood sugar a terrible crash, i got really shaky about 1hr later. it is a huge problem, i have raw egg smoothies, with berries, raw cream and butter but it is a bit difficult to get down sometimes! breakfast is a real problem for me and my dd who will only eat a certain gluten free pork sausage. sorry that i've gone off topic.

I want to second what someone else said about eating non-traditional foods at breakfast. I used to have a hard time with that until I lived in Japan. They have the most amazing traditional breakfasts. A typical breakfast would be salmon, with miso soup and some form of pickled vegetable (read fermented) and of course rice. But maybe you could work on something like that? Miso soup and fish? I don't know if that grosses you out in the morning. It used to for me but I didn't have much of a choice so eventually I grew to crave those super energy-supplying breakfasts. You can put anything in miso soup too. Daikon, onions, clams, fish, any veggie. If you get those little miso soup bowls and eat it with chopsticks it's pretty fun. And miso is so good for you.

Are you not on dairy? I can't remember if that was mentioned. I eat yogurt with ground flaxseeds, coral legend powder, nutritional yeast and banana every morning (and eggs).

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by Mamapits

What Susun wrote really resonates with me.
I have been seeing a nutritionist for the past few months and she is not TF in any way. Every visit we focus on something. First it was food sensitivities, then it was candidia and other funguses. She uses bio feedback. after each session she prescribes about $200 worth of supplements to me. I also see the Chirpracter at the same institution, the wellnes center is his baby, any how he has had me on supplements as well. I can hardly see the kitchen table! it is so full of this crap.

This thread is just a confirmation of what I have been feeling. I need to get my nutrition through my foods. And yes I went ahead and recently bought nettle and oat straw. Wow I had no idea how much calcium is in nettle. I need to start brewing that up. Also the nutritionist had me off of dairy and I have to say that I really feel like I need it, I have been doing some pastured butter and I actually drank milk today ( not raw, I know that is not good but my body wants it) The nutritionist does not do dairy herself and takes calcium supplements.

I go to this dentist who is also an MD. She says don't poison yourself with supplements. She told me to make bone broth if I needed calcium.

She is very against vitamin supplements. Any how, I am rambling, I just am coming to the conclusion that I don't need to waste any more time or money on the nutritionist. I learn more here from you wise ones than the people I have been paying.

Wow, this thread really helped me make the decision. Thanks

This sort of thing really burns me up. It seems now that all "alternative" caregivers have their own supplements that they make money from. I think supplements are only an option if you have a serious condition (even then questionable). Otherwise, get it in the food. I've been to practitioner after practitioner and they all have their agenda. I immediately mistrust when they sell their own products to you. Then they operate only from that perspective. It's so frustrating because at this point, "alternative caregiver" basically means "supplement pusher". (Not all I'm sure but I have yet to find one that didn't operate like that)

[JaneS]

I don't know... I think sometimes you really need supplements to heal a disease state ... that it might not be possible to recover from serious deficiencies without supplements.

Which is not to say one should be taking a kitchen table full of chemicals, nor neglecting the benefits of nutrient dense food!

But we've been at this healing thing for a long time, and I keep knocking on supplement's door as the only way to correct some serious wrongs.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Brisen

What is FOS?

Sorry didn't see this... FOS is an indigestible sugar (not broken down by our digestive enzymes). It is commonly known as food for beneficial bacteria in our gut, but certain types of bad bacteria can feed on it too. It may depend on what you've got going on inside you. FOS is also well known to cause gas and bloating in many, whether it's causing bad bacteria to grow or too fast of a shift in gut flora is still debated.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by JaneS

I don't know... I think sometimes you really need supplements to heal a disease state ... that it might not be possible to recover from serious deficiencies without supplements.

Which is not to say one should be taking a kitchen table full of chemicals, nor neglecting the benefits of nutrient dense food!

But we've been at this healing thing for a long time, and I keep knocking on supplement's door as the only way to correct some serious wrongs.

Ditto this. I use supplements to bring people to baseline. You'd be suprised at how many people are walking around with subclinical deficiencies. If it can be done through food, great. Sometimes and with some nutrients it can. Some that's just not enough for therapeutic doses.

[wallacesmum]

I know this is an old thread - I hope folks are still around for discussion!

I am pregnant, and I don't know WHAT'S wrong with me. I have hypoglycemic symptoms, am pretty uncomfortable. Someone suggested candida, but when I followed up on that I heard about this mercury relationship. There are a lot of suggestions here, some conflicting, and I don't know what my approach is going to be.

My questions are: what is documented about the relationship between candida and mercury? What exactly does the candida do to the mercury? It seems logical to avoid any potential chelation during pregnancy, but it also seems dangerous to have these blood sugar problems. Wouldn't we normally have some candida, and doesn't that imply that it does have some sort of job to do? I hate to try to wipe it out without really knowing what I am doing.

The bottom line is that I feel BAD and I want to feel GOOD, but I don't want to hurt the baby. If, after all nursing is done, I want to wipe out the candida, won't that leave me more vulnerable to mercury toxicity? How do you get to an optimal level of candida for mercury sequestering?

[tanyalynn]

My understanding is that, well, everyone's got some mercury in them, and everyone's got some candida, and neither is really an issue at low levels. The mercury-candida problem starts when you don't excrete mercury well, it starts throwing a lot of things out of balance, and the environment in the gut is part of that. With a lot of mercury around, candida usually does proliferate and sequester mercury, and the risks and benefits need to be balanced in terms of doing things to intentionally kill candida.

You shouldn't have to rely on candida to protect you from mercury. People should have good glutathione levels and sufficient methylation levels to excrete the heavy metals (and other stuff that's detoxified by those pathways) to basically keep up with what they're exposed to.

Once you've built up a lot of mercury (if you have, it's my issue, but it's not everyone's issue, most people deal with mercury far better than I do), it's inevitable that your detox pathways have been significantly stressed and bogged down (the process generally takes years to build up, and we felt fairly normal for most of that time), so killing candida indiscriminately would release a lot of mercury that _our_ bodies, in particular, are poorly able to deal with. You'd need nutritional supports to supply the detox pathways with the material to excrete the metals, clearly during pregnancy is not the time you'd want to increase circulating toxins.

Most of the reading I've done on mercury/candida has been from autism-mercury websites. The autism-mercury yahoo group has a Files section that may be of use, the frequent-dose-chelation yahoo group does as well (the former is more child-centric, the latter adult-centric). Some books on kids and autism and biomed would discuss candida and gut imbalances in general. I like Kenneth Bock's Healing the New Childhood Epidemics but I don't remember how much detail he goes into wrt candida. I think there are some other books out there that get fairly technical in terms of the effects of mercury and ways of dealing with the various imbalances caused by it.

I'm not knowledgeable on the other reasons for hypoglycemia, it seems like it's a common problem with a lot of causes, so I can't suggest other topics to look into to find your root cause.

[momma_unlimited]

I have hypoglycemic symptoms, am pretty uncomfortable.

This may seem overly simplistic and perhaps is something you already do, but with my pregnancies I tend towards hypoglycemia and I have found a basic rule that really helps- never have any carbohydrate/food sugar items without plenty of fat & fiber. So I butter my sprouted grain toast on both sides, dip my fruit slices in almond butter or eat them with nuts or sprinkle shredded coconut on them (or dip medjool dates in coconut oil, mmm!), etc. Because fats and fiber are absorbed more slowly and mixing them with blood sugar-spiking items helps avoid those spikes/dips.

[Panserbjorne]

Pretty much what TanyaLopez said. You will always have conflicting thoughts so the only thing you can do is find what feels right for your body. There is no dogma, there are only guidelines. This is because everyone processes things differently and gets stuck in different places.

I will continue to stand by the idea that candida is not the enemy. It doesn't need to be destroyed. The underlying issues need to be dealt with so that it is no longer required as a protective mechanism.

[wallacesmum]

Thanks. For now I am supplementing a lot of C, avoiding dairy and wheat, CLO, and taking a shot of raw garlic and olive oil before bed. This combination, as well as a lot of ferments, seems to be working. Definitely this is a pregnancy-exacerbated issue, so I am going heavy on fats and light on carbs but making sure I do get plenty of some kinds for brain development and stuff, mostly brown rice. It does seem logical that the goal is to find a balance, and then maybe gently detox-rebalance-detox-rebalance etc. once I am done nursing.

[nicole_marie]

This thread makes me want to give up and cry. I literally cannot sort through all of the conflicting information out there. It's soooo overwhelming. I've spent over $2500 on Naturopathy, Pediatric visits, blood tests, supplements, lotions, salves, cremes, soaps, superfoods and raw foods for my son. Everyone says this will work and that will work and I go ahead and spend the money...and we are still at square 1. This has been going on for 10 months and I don't see an end in site. It would be one thing if I spent the money and actually saw improvement...but no...zip, zilch, nada.

[nicole_marie]

Calm, I love you.

I've been begging for fast and horrible treatments for 10 months, I even asked Dr's to admit him into the hospital. I've begged for antifungal which would damage his liver because he/we are suffering on a yearly/monthly/weekly/daily/hourly basis. We have tried the elimination diet 3 times. We have spent thousands and thousand on supplements, copays and naturopathic visits. I almost quit my job and I am self employed with a flexible, part time schedule. I hired a nanny yesterday. I joined the YMCA so I could drop him off at the daycare 2 hours a day and spend time with my older son.

Some moms can do it and good for them/you...*go supermom*!

I'm not supermom...I'm human. A tired, exhausted human that feels completely helpless.

[nicolelynn]

Originally Posted by nicole_marie

This thread makes me want to give up and cry. I literally cannot sort through all of the conflicting information out there. It's soooo overwhelming. I've spent over $2500 on Naturopathy, Pediatric visits, blood tests, supplements, lotions, salves, cremes, soaps, superfoods and raw foods for my son. Everyone says this will work and that will work and I go ahead and spend the money...and we are still at square 1. This has been going on for 10 months and I don't see an end in site. It would be one thing if I spent the money and actually saw improvement...but no...zip, zilch, nada.

*Hugs* I'm right there with you. Though it is me who is suffering, and I know watching my child suffer would be even worse.

I have read so many conflicting things and tried numerous natural therapies, diets, saw a naturopath, etc (I have yeast overgrowth in my colon along with a parasitic infection called blastocystis hominis which causes constant inflammation, discomfort and bloating in my lower left abdomen). I finally tried some drugs after fighting for 1 1/2 yrs. The first rounds didn't work (10 days of Alinia for the parasite and 1 month of Nystatin for the yeast) so I am off to try Flagyl for the parasite (REALLY didn't want to take this one) and another round of Nystatin. I keep getting frustrated with gut healing diets because I see NO difference and actually am happier and thus have a better sense of well being NOT restricting my diet (including the cookies I ate at Christmas time and all). But I know I need to try to stick with some kind of gut healing diet regardless.

I used to break down crying to my DH every other day (he is a blessing), but was tough for a few months there and didn't. I just broke down again yesterday. I just want to be a Mom and don't know if I will ever be well enough to be.

We just got to keep fighting and trying. Best wishes!

[WuWei]

nicholelynn, Best anti-parasite diet?
Another thread about parasite healing alternatives.

Gut healing Where to start? Help 101 Be sure to read the Cliff Notes at the bottom of the post for foods to ADD to improve gut healing.

Caution, if you have/had mercury fillings in your teeth. Killing off candida releases mercury into blood circulation to redeposit into your brain, organs and gut (fetus and breastmilk also).

Microbial imbalance just recurs unless you address the underlying CAUSE of the imbalance.


Pat

[nicolelynn]

Thank you for the links, but that is just the thing. I have tried ALL of those things for 1.5 years with no results. Blastocystis hominis is a super bug and I have found no scientific evidence and even very little anecdotal evidence that natural therapies work. The only thing that stopped the initial diarrhea was Primal Defense and dairy exacerbates my symptoms.

I did NOT want to take drugs but this is my last resort. At least I don't have any amalgam or metal dental work so I don't have mercury issues, so I feel a bit better about the Nystatin. Besides that I'm just doing GFCF nutrient dense foods, Primal Defense, Digest Gold, a multivitamin and fish oil and not stressing about super restrictive diets (SCD, anti-candida/parasite, etc).

[BeingMe]

I have read in the book "Diet Cure" that if you have yeast that won't go away despite treatment you should get checked for:
**EBV, CMV, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
**Parasites or Microbial Organisms
**Hepatitis C
**Overly Akaline pH
**Chronic Bladder Problems
**Allergies to Food

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by nicolelynn

At least I don't have any amalgam or metal dental work so I don't have mercury issues, so I feel a bit better about the Nystatin.

just throwing it out there that amalgams are only ONE source of mercury. There are plenty of people without amalgams that have mercury toxicity. IF you mother had them, if you eat a lot of fish, if there are environmental exposures it *could* still be an issue for you.