Please comment on Susun Weed letter titled "Candida is a helper. It is keeping you healthy!" - Page 3

[mbravebird]

Originally Posted by firefaery

Ruthla-you can buy it! Maybe it would squick you out less if it were in a purty package? Jordan Rubin (Garden of Life) sells it. He calls his dirt, "Primal Defense."

So does azomite *not* have significant levels of soil organisms, then? I was hoping maybe it did...

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by firefaery

Ruthla-you can buy it! Maybe it would squick you out less if it were in a purty package? Jordan Rubin (Garden of Life) sells it. He calls his dirt, "Primal Defense."

So I should spend money to buy packets of dirt? Pickles taste better.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

So I should spend money to buy packets of dirt? Pickles taste better.

Now, now Ruthla. In all fairness it is a tub, not a packet...tsk tsk.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by mbravebird

So does azomite *not* have significant levels of soil organisms, then? I was hoping maybe it did...

It may!

[weliveintheforest]

Originally Posted by firefaery

Ruthla-you can buy it! Maybe it would squick you out less if it were in a purty package? Jordan Rubin (Garden of Life) sells it. He calls his dirt, "Primal Defense."

Hey it works in my house. Dh is happy to take his store bought 'probiotics' Thank goodness for the gift card that paid for it

[Calm]

The focus should be (IMO) on understanding WHY it is out of control and dealing with that. It is a very allopathic mindset that compels us to deal only with the presenting symptoms.

The reason it is out of control, though, is usually antibiotics.

Or the birth control pill.

Or pregnancy (and other progesterone heavy moments in life).

Or vaccinations.

Or inorganically grown meat, therefore containing antibiotics.

There are many reasons why it can get out of control. knowing why doesn't really help in many cases. My son's flora is out of balance due to birth antibiotics. I can't go back and change that, and knowing why he has it doesn't fix it.

Killing the yeast is essential. If you have an overgrowth, it is lining your colon walls, and it sticks like super glue. Hence why people have little success with gentle methods of yeast kill and rarely go through the coveted "die off" healing crisis. They are clever, they have many methods of averting the immune system, even the strongest immune system. Working on your immune system is a waste of time when it comes to yeast.

Kill them. Nystatin. All the way. Easy peasy. Make ROOM for the good guys, first.

OR, Threelac. That stuff is amazing. It is Japanese and designed to reach the colon (with most probiotics only 2% reach past the stomach acid, most die there) - specially chosen bacterium to kill candida and repopulate the bowel encased in a protective shell that survives the digestive tract and makes it to the colon. There have been great results with Threelac for autism (a fungal related issue). And this is a great journal article on studies done with nystatin for people with many symptoms:

Effectiveness of nystatin in polysymptomatic patients. A randomized, double-blind trial with nystatin versus placebo in general practice

The PDF is better, cos it's easier to see the tables and results.

Doctors have tried to do it without first killing the yeast, trying to recolonise the colon, to no avail, or little avail. The yeast mutate into fungus and the body becomes a toxic mess, causing so many devastating symptoms like MS, depression, IBS, eczema, mental illness, autism, you name it. The toxic chemicals yeast deliver into your system are nasty.

Ok, now I want a pickle.

I love pickles!!

Make sure it isn't a vinegar pickle!!!!!!

Most pickles have just been "pickled" in vinegar. No good!

It MUST be a properly fermented pickle or it will have the opposite effect - vinegar kills bacteria.

To make vinegar, you use a yeast (without the balance of a bacterium, unlike yeasts found naturally). Yeast make antibacterial chemicals.

Penicillin, anyone?

Yeasts are what antibiotics actually ARE!

They make chemicals that kill bacteria. It's a competitive world out there on fruit, or in our gut, or wherever they happen to be. They always live in tandem, keeping each other from taking over the world .

Yeast make anti-bacterial chemicals to give them an edge. It usually works to bust the cell wall of the bacterium.

Yeast products contain these chemicals.

If you eat yeast products, you kill off bacteria. If you, at the same time, eat yeast feeders (such as malt), you have basically just given yourself homemade antibiotics. Your gut will freak out and be imbalanced.

So, keep off the vinegar, make sure the pickles are traditional (kosher?) ferments or it is just an antibacterial soup, and you create an even worse problem.

Nystatin are bacteria that are used to bust the cell wall of yeast - the reverse of a traditional antibiotic. Wishing vaginal thrush would just "go away" is madness, they need to be killed (garlic, yoghurt, whatnot popped into the canal helps this).

Yeast issues need help to heal. Esp with the diet. Stop feeding the yeast with growth foods and stop eating antibacterial foods. That alone does wonders. It's a fallacy that you have to avoid bread yeast, btw. The yeast in bread is Saccharomyces, a different strain of yeast, plus it is killed in cooking. Enjoy bread. Just make sure it isn't MALTED bread. Following?

[dinahx]

Susun is a Mega-genius! What a Wise Woman . . . I would follow everything she says, IMO she is a true healer and this has convinced me to sign up for her correspondence courses immediately!

She is such a treasure! Did she send you that letter free of charge???

[SAmama]

Originally Posted by firefaery

Just to be clear in case this was a response to me, I don't mean that it's beneficial and should hang around. I mean that it is attempting to exact a balance and it is HELPFUL to know that things are amiss. It wouldn't be growing and raging out of control in a healthy body. I don't think we should live with candida overgrowth (which I DO believe gets into the organs because I've seen it) but I don't think the focus should be on killing the yeast. That misses the boat. The focus should be (IMO) on understanding WHY it is out of control and dealing with that. It is a very allopathic mindset that compels us to deal only with the presenting symptoms.

So then, if you figure out why it is out of control, e.g. because of previous bad diets, bc pills, antibiotics or whatever the reason, and you then change all of that, do you think that it will correct itself over time? We have been eating very well, avoiding sugar, avoiding most grains, eating boatloads of lf veggies and still dd's skin looks like cr@p. I feel great, much better eating like we do now - TF, high fat, high protein, lots of broth - although I think I am still healing. But it doesn't seem to help dd, and she still reacts to things through my milk (maybe because she refuses to eat lf veggies?). I am wondering if I am just impatient, or if I am missing "something" like blasting it with an antifungal, which I am really not sure about yet. I really believe in our bodies being amazing at healing itself, although I don't understand much of it. Am I underestimating candida?
Sorry for hijacking.

[bluebell]

wow this is all so interesting - even if i'm still a bit confused!

there is so much information here to 'digest' i've not been on the mothering forums for the past few months and i'm so glad i've got some 'puter time cos i agree with the others you are all so amazing!!: loving this thread and so glad that there are others out there doing TF.

[Koalamom]

Ok, so I am doing it.
Right now I am eating extra soured sourdough bread with 2 cloves of raw garlic on top, and moldy cheese on top, accompanied with a big bowl of kefir and yogurt which was cultured extra long. Time to go make some nettle infusion. I will see how it goes...

As to the question where I go susuns letter, another parent posted it else where, and it is also available free on her website with all of her other newsletters.

[Panserbjorne]

It's not about identifying ONE instance.

I still think this is missing the point. One round of antibiotics isn't enough to throw an entire system off kilter if it wasn't off to begin with. NOTHING EXISTS IN A VACUUM. It's not just about antibiotics at birth, vaccines following, birth control pills etc. etc. etc. It's just not. It's ALL the things that break down the system over time and where your vulnerabilities inherently lie. Many people have yeast, but some present in other ways. Even if you have yeast, it presents differently in each person do to their underlying constitution. All I'm saying is that it's a mistake in ANYTHING to just treat the symptoms. Everyone will react differently and everyone may require different treatment. If you have yeast and metals the treatment is far different than for simply yeast. If you have yeast and parasites, again...different treatment.

I just tend to look at the bigger picture.

I have actually advocated the use of Nystatin here and in other places before. I have also utilized ThreeLac, both personally and with my clients. I'm not needing a lecture on the behavior of yeast, all I'm saying is that it's a mistake to look only at the yeast. If you miss the bigger picture you could struggle your whole life. That's all.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by SAmama

So then, if you figure out why it is out of control, e.g. because of previous bad diets, bc pills, antibiotics or whatever the reason, and you then change all of that, do you think that it will correct itself over time? We have been eating very well, avoiding sugar, avoiding most grains, eating boatloads of lf veggies and still dd's skin looks like cr@p. I feel great, much better eating like we do now - TF, high fat, high protein, lots of broth - although I think I am still healing. But it doesn't seem to help dd, and she still reacts to things through my milk (maybe because she refuses to eat lf veggies?). I am wondering if I am just impatient, or if I am missing "something" like blasting it with an antifungal, which I am really not sure about yet. I really believe in our bodies being amazing at healing itself, although I don't understand much of it. Am I underestimating candida?
Sorry for hijacking.

No, i don't think that at all. I think if you correct imbalances and look to stabilize one of the things that will happen is that you will eradicate yeast.

What's going on with her skin? It is eczema or other rashes?

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Calm

There are many reasons why it can get out of control. knowing why doesn't really help in many cases. My son's flora is out of balance due to birth antibiotics. I can't go back and change that, and knowing why he has it doesn't fix it.

I'm sorry you are going through this and it has clearly hit a nerve. I am also happy you are getting results. All I am saying is that what is happening in your body WITH YEAST may be very different than what is happening in other's bodies.

I'm not suggesting to look at the one or two INSTANCES that you can see that may have allowed the yeast to take hold, I'm suggesting a bigger picture approach.

You linked to a DAN! doctor and that is generally what they specialize in, though i don't know about him in particular. All the DAN! docs I know take an individualized approach. No two patients are treated the same.

There is a reason why there are so many anti-candida diets that work. They will not all work for everyone, but many of them do work. It depends on what ELSE is happening besides the yeast. This is also why so many people claim a cure only to relapse. If you simply kill off the yeast-even if you institute beneficial bacteria-it can come back. I look for cures with no relapse meaning that you look at EVERYTHING and deal with it accordingly. Yeast is only a part of the picture.

[crunchy_mama]

I find this very interesting, it fits more in line w/ my thoughts. Even when I have followed candida diets I have kept yogurt and keifir because it made since to me to do so.

My dh and I have both had huge issues w/ candida. Dh has had all the drugs that is supposed to kill the stuff off- that doesn't work either. He has went through the whole range many times and it comes. right. back. every. time. There is something causing that, but not sure what. Right now his diet is horrible, so there is no hope there.

[bluebell]

i just got a repliy back from the nutrionist who prescribed me the pau d'arco tea. i emailed him to ask him why he thought pau d'arco was good if it wiped out good bacteria aswell. this is his repliy..


Not in my experience or I would have no good bacteria in my gut and neither
would any of my customers or clients!

Pau D'arco is highly therapeutic and very well tolerated.

Your source is right, candida is good - but not when it's out of contol and
systemic. Pau D'arco helps to create the balance by reducing microbe levels.

Pau D'arco is anti-fungal, anti-viral, anti-parasitic and immune boosting,
which is why it's so good. So many people are obsessed by candida and it's
not even their issue, pau d'arco covers all angles.



i'm all confused again!
but i'm also not sure i want to risk still drinking it.

[moneca]

I couldn't agree more that it can be incredibly helpful to look at the cause for yeast overgrowth. Of course, for some it won't matter. With all the toxins in our environment (inluding synthetics we ingest) and our years of poor nutrition there is so much to consider. I just posted my daughter's story on another thread. The post shows that sometimes one factor can contribute to yeast issues more than one would imagine :

Some people have a relatively easy time overcoming yeast issues with diet limitation and addition of probiotics, but some can eat strict SCD and take massive amounts of probiotics without much benefit. Ever wonder what the difference is?
I truly believe that we have to look at what caused the yeast imbalance. If the reason is poor diet (SAD with animal products laden with antibiotic residue) without probiotics or heavy oral antibiotic/steroid use then strict SCD with probiotic supplementation should heal the gut and restore balance of gut ecology over time. Healing the gut is not a quick thing.
However, I've found through experience that toxins can cause much bigger problems than can be handled with diet and probiotic supplementation. I've read Gut and Psychology Syndrome. I think it is an excellent book, but really have a hard time believing her mention that healing the gut can take care of mercury detox (not her exact words, of course) making chelation unnecessary.
Here is my daughter's story with yeast in brief :

She started with yeast rashes at 4mo under her chin. She also was ftt, horrible intake, and vomited frequently. No matter what we did we couldn't get rid of the yeast rashes. By 18 mo she developed a weepy eczema behind her ears that flared and wept horribly with any food containing fructose/glucose.
She went on STRICT SCD/TF for 4 months (was not bf) including raw 24 hour yoghurt several times per day. Very slight brief improvement in gi symptoms (like 2 days). No improvement for the rest of the four months with gi or yeast.
It took me another 6 months to figure out her issue might be mercury toxicity and another year before I could figure out how to try to remove it in a safe manner for her (stomach motility was horribly slowed down and all oral chelation is time dependent due to the need to keep constant levels in the body for safety). I tried to chelate her at that point with a toxicologist, but mobilizing the mercury aggravated the gastritis so badly that we had to quit.
All this time she only had one sprouted grain product during the day and NO fruit or high fructose veggies at all. ANY ingestion of these would cause her reddened slightly weepy ears to worsen immed. Her diet was 70% raw yoghurt with just meat and no carb veggies for the rest of the day. It had been this way for about 2 years because that is all she could tolerate from a yeast standpoint. She was on a ton of probiotics and a couple beneficial yeasts along with the raw probiotics.
When she was 3 1/2 yo we finally found a NAET/acupuncturist who was able to remove the mercury energetically (trust me, my eyes were rolled in the back of my head the first time I left the office). I would have never believed him after all my research into chelation and toxins if I had not seen miracles in my daughter. After two months of bi-weekly treatments he had removed enough mercury that her diet was unlimited (strict TF of course esp. soaked or sd grains) and she could have low sugar fruits and agave without causing eczema behind her ears!
It took another 7 months of treatments to resolve all the mercury issues with her stomach. She eats whatever she wants in the TF realm including spoons of raw honey and homemade ice cream without ANY issues. She eats properly prepared grains all the time.
All this to make the point that sometimes finding the cause for the yeast imbalance and dealing with it can cure the yeast issue rather quickly. Mercury toxicity causes yeast to be uncontroled. For us, nothing but removing the mercury would touch the yeast. I really believe that a gut in balance does not have yeast overgrowth from having a normal amount of grains or honey, papaya, whatever. I'm not saying that anyone here has mercury issues, just want to point out how critical it can be to gut healing to find the cause of your yeast imbalance if you're not responding well to diet changes and addition of probiotics.
By the way, most people think mercury toxicity in children is accompanied by behavioral, mental, and emotional abnormalities. You would never have known anything was wrong with my dd other than she was skinny and didn't like to eat. She never had sleep issues either.

[caedmyn]

Just to make things a little more confusing...keep in mind that many symptoms of "candida overgrowth" can be caused by things other than candida, like food chemical sensitivity. IMO if you've been trying to treat candida for a while and are having no luck, or the things you try give you horrible die-off symptoms, you should look into food chemical sensitivity. Here's a couple of links
www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com

I've tried both routes for my supposed candida overgrowth. I felt better overall on the yeast-free diet, mostly because I had fewer blood sugar problems, but I didn't fix anything, and I don't believe I ever had candida overgrowth in the first place (in spite of years of antibiotics for acne and ear infections and a year of birth control pills). I do know that all the herbs and fermented foods were causing both my then-nursing DD and I problems because of the food chemicals in them--the herbs gave me reflux although I didn't realize it at the time, and the fermented foods gave me uncontrollable diarrhea for several days once, and horrible gas the rest of the time. They gave DD eczema and very flushed cheeks and may have contributed to her food intolerances.

Now I can't say that either my DD or I were 100% cured by going on a low food chemical diet, although it did explain a lot of things for both of us. I still have some food intolerances and digestive problems, some of which actually started after I stopped doing all the candida stuff. Perhaps too much messing with gut flora isn't a good thing. Fermented foods don't do a thing for my digestion, I seem to need particular strains of probiotics. And my DD still has the red butt crack rash and cradle cap that she's had pretty much since birth, but nothing I've done has ever touched either of those. She still has all of her food intolerances, too, but at least her eczema is gone and when she wets her pants 5 times a day, I know why.

[duckmom]

I completely agree with firefaery and moneca, but then we're also dealing with mercury toxicity. We do our best to keep yeast at bay so that we can live as comfortably as possible, but I know it's nothing but an uphill battle until the mercury is out.

for all of us on our respective journeys to good health! And I agree, MDC mamas totally ROCK!

[Calm]

One round of antibiotics isn't enough to throw an entire system off kilter if it wasn't off to begin with.

This is starting to sound like a debate and I certainly didn't mean for that to happen at all, but, YES! One round of antibiotics can be absolutely devastating to the entire body and DNA structure of the cell. Just one. Only one. Definitely. They kill indiscriminantly and wipe out the whole balance. That's why thrush can appear in a healthy person after just one bout of antibios - the system is instantly whacked.

All I'm saying is that it's a mistake in ANYTHING to just treat the symptoms.

As a naturopath, I would NEVER say to treat just the symptoms. Treating the yeast is treating the cause of many diseases. If the yeast is caused by an imbalanced pH (for instance), then yes, treat that, as that is the cause of the yeast. But usually, the cause is something that isn't within, it is without, such as antibios or pregnancy (pregnancy itself actually causes a gut imbalance in our modern society, hence, "third trimester thrush". But when my client with multiple sclerosis presented, the first picture I get from her is that she has a history of yeast killing - antibios over and over, the Pill use for years, etc. So I know the most probable cause, I move directly to the treatment - kill the yeast and repopulate! Give her relief! THEN we can make sure her pH and other factors remain stable to prevent reinfestation.

I'm not needing a lecture on the behavior of yeast, all I'm saying is that it's a mistake to look only at the yeast.

I wasn't speaking to you, or at least not only to you at all. And I'm not lecturing as I indeed hope you are not also. I'm information sharing, as I saw some potholes in her theory, massive ones. And I don't like to walk past misinformation ignorantly.

For those with babies/children with eczema, I've now seen with my own eyes what gut re-biosis does. It's like a miracle. I then saw it in my own son recently. It brought tears to my eyes.

I have NO DOUBT whatsoever that candida overgrowth causes eczema now. Treating a baby will require a professional to support you and be sure you give correct doses and use the right products/food (if on solids, my son was not). I had to treat him directly with nystatin, and his skin cleared in two days.

Gods bless. Sick babies are such a terrible struggle on mamas.

[Calm]

but some can eat strict SCD and take massive amounts of probiotics without much benefit. Ever wonder what the difference is?

Not killing the bad guys and making room for the good guys on the gut wall.

Acidophillus does not kill yeast, it lives in harmony with candida.

But it DOES kill clostridia - a bad bacteria that also clings and takes up room on the gut wall. Often, the short term relief from acidophillus probiotics is this relief from clostridia infection. But then, you still have the yeast. And probiotics, when absorbed at all (which they rarely are), have no where to fit.

You must make room.

Altering the pH (fermented foods, esp with lactobacillus and other lactic acid bacteria) OR killing the yeast directly OR starving them via diet - there are other ways too, all effective at downsizing the population of candida a. There are other candidas, such as those found in kefir. Candida L comes to mind. It is candida albicans that is the problem. He is a bad guy. So that is why I take issue with the OP, because she said a blanket statement that candida was a good guy.

A little information is dangerous.