Sex Discrimination or Me Overreacting? -- UPDATE in Post #15

[Adele_Mommy]

Yesterday was my dd's first day of 3rd grade in a public school. She was telling me about her day and talking about P.E. and mentioned that they were allowed to pick their own places to sit, but the teacher had a really silly rule. I asked what the rule was and she said the teacher said only boys could sit in the front row, only girls could sit in the second row, only boys could sit in the third row and anyone could sit in the last row (I can't remember if there were four or five rows).

I was totally outraged and demanded to know the teacher's name. DD asked me to please not change her seat because she liked where she was sitting. I said I wasn't going to try to get her seat changed, I was just going to ask for an explanation.

My DH didn't think this was a big deal. I did ask whether this seating was just for the day or just for a particular game or something and my dd thought it was going to continue.

Now I tend to be oversensitive to feminist issues and am easily annoyed by things this school does in general due to past experiences, so I thought I would ask for more opinions.

What do you think of this?

[jeliphish]

I think it sounds pretty normal. I think it was just a matter of maybe the lesson he was doing that day. If it continued I may get a bit irked but I really think it is something temporary. I had a professor in college who wanted us in seats by our height. It was statistics class and he was pretty OCD about ordering things a certain way.

[BarefootScientist]

IMO this is not sex discrimination. In elementary school we were always seated boy-girl-boy-girl. I think to discourage talking.

[the_lissa]

Wow I think that is discrimination and I would be livid.

[Mosaic]

It may also be due to ratios in the class. If the "teams" are going to be relatively well-balanced and in order to make sure people don't always play only with their buddies, I bet the teacher splits the teams up sometimes by row, other times by line, etc. If there are more boys in the class, this makes it easier to make it so the teams aren't always boys vs. girls.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I think its always good to ask for an explanation of something before coming to conclusions. Give the teacher the benefit of the doubt that there is some reasonable explanation (I think Heather8 may have it), call/email/send a note and ask for the explanation in a polite "I'm really curious" sort of way. If the explanation is lousy, THEN get angry and figure out what you want to do about it.

Is it that its seperated by boys and girls, that the boys are in the first row, or that there is a rule at all that bothers you? Honestly, this wouldn't bug me at all. It beats alphabetically IMHO because that always puts the same kids (mine) last. Everyone has their own way of organizing things and assigning seats.

[Adele_Mommy]

Thank you for all the responses. My reaction is because only boys can sit in the front row. I have no problem with boy-girl-boy-girl seating to discourage talking or to prevent kids from always being on teams with their buddies or whatever. (Or rather I do have problems with it because I am anti-authoritarian and I think kids should be able to sit where they want, but I understand a teacher doing this and don't see it as discriminatory). To me this case is not just picking a way to arrange kids that may as well be random or alphabetical or whatever. There are definite documented differences between sitting in the front row and sitting in the last row in terms of how frequently teachers call on you, how much attention kids pay to material presented from the front of the room, etc. My dd does not happen to like to sit in the front row and I am OK with that, but I am not OK with a teacher arbitrariliy deciding that she is not allowed to sit in the front row because she is a girl. However, maybe he plans to shift the rows around or something, so I should definitely get more information before getting angry.

Please keep the opinions coming! I find it very interesting!

[Arduinna]

discrimination yes. he could have just as easily made the rows going from left to the right front to back so boys and girls were equally shared the front.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

Thank you for all the responses. My reaction is because only boys can sit in the front row. [snip] There are definite documented differences between sitting in the front row and sitting in the last row in terms of how frequently teachers call on you, how much attention kids pay to material presented from the front of the room, etc.

I would agree completely if this were, say, math class. But this is sports, right? So how much calling on people is part of this class? Can't be that much. I think in this context its not nearly so much of a problem. Hopefully these kids are only sitting anywhere for the minimal time it takes to explain the day's activity and get organized, then they should be up and moving.

[mommy68]

I don't think it's a big deal. How do you know the teacher won't switch the order in a few weeks or by the quarter and put girls then boys, etc. later on?

I would much prefer boy/girl/boy/girl seating but only because that way a child wouldn't be offended if their friends chose to sit apart from them. But either way, it's not a big deal. I'm sure the teacher has a certain plan for the entire year.

Last year in Kindergarten my DD's teacher arranged the kids as boy/girl at the tables as much as possible in the classroom. I got peeved the first week because my DD was put in the very back corner table where she was too far from the teacher. A few weeks later, she was moved to a front table. It went that way throughout the year. The teacher constantly rotated everyone around.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

My reaction is because only boys can sit in the front row.

Would you feel that it was discrimination against boys if it was girls in the front row, boys in the second row, etc.?

Personally, this would not be an issue for me. I doubt that the teacher is thinking, "Well girls don't deserve the front row because they matter less than boys." It was probably just arbitrary and the teacher is just doing it for his/her convenience.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

I would agree completely if this were, say, math class. But this is sports, right? So how much calling on people is part of this class? Can't be that much. I think in this context its not nearly so much of a problem. Hopefully these kids are only sitting anywhere for the minimal time it takes to explain the day's activity and get organized, then they should be up and moving.

Well, yes but it is the principle of the matter. To me, your argument is analagous to saying, "Sure we make black people sit in the back of the bus, but only on the really short bus routes, so it's ok."

Not to say what happened compares at all to racism!! I know that it doesn't! In any case, maybe the teacher does plan to switch things around.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by velochic

Would you feel that it was discrimination against boys if it was girls in the front row, boys in the second row, etc.?
.

Yes I would. Unless there is a plan in place to switch things around so the genders get equal time in each row, then one gender would be being discriminating against.

Originally Posted by velochic

Personally, this would not be an issue for me. I doubt that the teacher is thinking, "Well girls don't deserve the front row because they matter less than boys." It was probably just arbitrary and the teacher is just doing it for his/her convenience.

I doubt the teacher was thinking that as well. However, I would not be at all surprised if the teacher were thinking, "Oh, you know boys! They're much more rambunctious and I need to keep them up front where I can keep an eye on them!" I think this kind of attitude is, in fact, sexist and is damaging to both boys and girls, but IMO it is more damaging to girls. I also think it is still quite prevalent.

However, I don't know what the teacher was thinking. I plan to send an email and ask (politely).

[CarrieMF]

You're overreacting.

You say you don't know what the teacher was thinking, but also say that it would be just as bad if the girls were in front UNLESS she's planning on mixing it up.

With the boys in the 1st & 3rd row, girls in the 2nd & anyone in the 4th is sounds like there is a larger ratio of boys in the class than girls.

Teachers change where the kids sit ALOT. Eveyr 3-4 weeks the kids are moved around, not only what spot they're sitting in but the configuration of the seats too. They do rows left-right, front-back, in a square, in sets of 4 desks angled, in rows facing each other.

The 1 grade 5 teacher had his kids in 4 rows, 2 rows of girls facing west, 2 rows of boys facing east.

[Adele_Mommy]

UPDATE

I sent an email to the teacher and he got back to me right away with what I feel is a very reasonable explanation.

He does arrange them this way to facilitate dividing them into teams and assigning partners for activities as some of the previous posters speculated, and he explained to me how he does this. He also said that at semester he will switch so the girls are in the first row, which I was very happy to hear.

So I am satisfied that this is not discrimination, but I am also glad I asked.

Thanks for all your responses!

[the_lissa]

I'm glad to hear that!

[Kirsten]

I knew from the first post that it wasn't sex discrimination. It wasn't "boys in the front; girls in the back". It was a row of boys, then a row of girls, THEN another row of boys, then a row of mixed. How can that be discrim? And an eight year old assuming it would stay that way all year isn't exactly what I'd go to the bank on. There is a lot of info given out in the beginning of the year; it is hard to keep it all straight sometimes.

I'm not a teacher, but I'd try hard never to assume the worst of anything your child comes home reporting. Hear them, empathize with them, but I wouldn't assume bad intent. I'm glad you asked before going in guns blazing.

[Adele_Mommy]

Originally Posted by Kirsten

I knew from the first post that it wasn't sex discrimination. It wasn't "boys in the front; girls in the back". It was a row of boys, then a row of girls, THEN another row of boys, then a row of mixed. How can that be discrim? And an eight year old assuming it would stay that way all year isn't exactly what I'd go to the bank on. There is a lot of info given out in the beginning of the year; it is hard to keep it all straight sometimes.

I'm not a teacher, but I'd try hard never to assume the worst of anything your child comes home reporting. Hear them, empathize with them, but I wouldn't assume bad intent. I'm glad you asked before going in guns blazing.

I too am glad I asked, but I never had any intention of "going in guns blazing". Also you are completely mistaken that "you knew from the first post that it wasn't sex discrimination." You may have thought that and turned out to be right, but you didn't know. I do have to wonder the purpose of this post beyond saying how much smarter you think you are than me and the other posters who agreed with me. Of course, I am no doubt overreacting, but based on what you know of me from my original post I can only assume your intent was to work me up. Nice.

[Kirsten]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

the teacher said only boys could sit in the front row, only girls could sit in the second row, only boys could sit in the third row and anyone could sit in the last row

I was totally outraged

My DH didn't think this was a big deal.

Now I tend to be oversensitive to feminist issues and am easily annoyed by things this school does in general due to past experiences

What do you think of this?

You asked for opinions. This was the relevent info you gave in the first post. I was not the only one telling you it was overreacting. Sorry you didn't like my "guns blazing" comment. "Totally outraged" is a pretty strong emotion, and I'd expect it was possible that someone totally outraged might go in guns blazing.

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

you are completely mistaken that "you knew from the first post that it wasn't sex discrimination." You may have thought that and turned out to be right, but you didn't know.

Of course, I am no doubt overreacting, but based on what you know of me from my original post I can only assume your intent was to work me up. Nice.

I did know from the first post - as boys were required to sit in the THIRD row as well as the first. If the situation was boys in the first two rows and girls in the back two rows, it would have been more concerning. And having been in public school, and having had experience with kids telling me their assumptions on what may or may not continue all year, I felt confident that there was a reason the teacher set them up this way - and it wasn't gender discrimination - based on the info you gave.

And I wasn't trying to "work you up". You asked a question and got an answer. When I was new here, I asked a question about homeschooling. Many posters explained it nicely, and some "worked me up". It isn't a personal attack; it is information on topics that some people feel very strongly about. It is also hard to read intent online. I try to assume in the best light.

I love the "am I overreacting" and WWYD threads. Everyone has their own sensitivities, and it is nice to get a variety of honest opinions. If there are 70 responses all agreeing with you, you can feel pretty sure that you either have a lot of overly nice posters, or you are right. If it is half and half, I really consider that I may not be viewing it from a good perspective. YMMD.

[je309]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

I too am glad I asked, but I never had any intention of "going in guns blazing". Also you are completely mistaken that "you knew from the first post that it wasn't sex discrimination." You may have thought that and turned out to be right, but you didn't know. I do have to wonder the purpose of this post beyond saying how much smarter you think you are than me and the other posters who agreed with me. Of course, I am no doubt overreacting, but based on what you know of me from my original post I can only assume your intent was to work me up. Nice.

I agree with this. The situation has been resolved and should be over. Why on Earth would it be of help to her or anyone else to state that "I knew from the first post..."?? I'm new here, so feel free to put me in my place but I can't grasp why your post was necessary? Again, she had received her advice and had resolved the situation. I'm not sure why you felt the need to make her know that you knew the teacher's intent from the beginning. I have seen quite a bit of this attitude here since joining this forum. I suppose that means it's time for me to move on! ;-)