"Vaccine refusals fuel measles outbreak" - Page 3

[Livviesmom0207]

Originally Posted by HeatherRD

I don't have kids yet. I haven't done a lot of research on vaccinations. So I don't know much. Can someone please refute some of the points this article makes? What about the outbreaks of measles the article talks about? If unvaccinated children are not causing a resurgence of these illnesses, then what is?

Thank you!

Of the 131 cases reported this year 96 were unvaccinated. That means that 35 WERE vaccinated. If vaccines worked, this wouldn't happen. Also, MMR is a shedding vaccine, so it's very possible the vaccinated children are the ones spreading measles!

[MissRubyandKen]

Well if anyone cares to read the CDC update rather than that article it breaks the numbers down what we must assume is more accurately.

131 cases
76% cases in people <20 years old
91% in unvaccinated or of unknown vaccination status
89% were imported from or associated with importations from other countries
17 cases were importations
15 cases sources of acquisition undetermined


123 cases were US residents, 99 of which were <20 years old
5 of the 123 had 1 dose of MMR (confirmed)
6 of the 123 had 2 doses of MMR (confirmed)
112 of the 123 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status

of the 112, 95 were eligible for vaccination (17 cases were not)
63 cases were in people unvaccinated because of philosophical or religious beliefs
meaning 32 cases were in people of unknown or not confirmed vaccination status
15 cases hospitalized
0 deaths

[PenelopeJune]

I keep seeing this ad on a mainstream baby board, where Amanda Peet is saying that 50 % of all kids who contract the measles will die of it. It's driving me crazy! They don't explain that they are pulling that number from WORLD stats, where most people who probably die of measles live in horrible conditions to begin with. (And even then, I kind of wonder about the 50 % stat. Is that right?)

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by Livviesmom0207

Of the 131 cases reported this year 96 were unvaccinated. That means that 35 WERE vaccinated. If vaccines worked, this wouldn't happen. Also, MMR is a shedding vaccine, so it's very possible the vaccinated children are the ones spreading measles!

The issue is not this black and white. Looking at the current outbreaks in the developed world, it is clear to see that the vast majority of cases are unvaccinated individuals and that certainly many of these cases are spreading to each other. The MMR is one that works both in and of itself but also by herd immunity. Combined they create a very effective vaccine. Just look at the cases in, for example, SWitzerland. something like 98% are unvaccinated.

In the outbreaks here we have only 11 confirmed with any vaccinations and a good number of unknown status...but we can't make anything of those unknowns. We can't immediately put them in the vaccinated status. But we do know 11 were vaccinated (5 not completely- only 1 dose), 63 were not and 17 were not old enough. So, of the 123, we know 80 were not vaccinated and 11 were, but only 6 had the 2 doses.

Given those numbers and the numbers of people these 123 people were near or around, I would say the vaccine is doing quite well. If it didn't work there would be a lot more than 11 vaccinated cases and the numbers of unvaccinated and vaccinated would definitely be closer to each other rather than leaning so heavily on the non side.

[MissRubyandKen]

PenelopeJune-

From the CDC's pink book, measles chapter:

The World Health Organization estimates there were more than
30 million cases and 454,000 deaths from measles in 2004.

Um, not quite 50%.

[mkmoro311]

Make me crazy when kids are put either in the Vax or UnVaxed category! A large percentage of the so called Vaxed kids are not 100% Vaxed! Where should their statistic fall?

[carriebft]

This is 2007 info on the switzerland outbreak:

Six percent of the 445 cases for whom a detailed questionnaire had been submitted were vaccinated against measles (18 with one dose and nine with two doses), 87% were unvaccinated, and the vaccination status of the remaining 7% was unknown. There were 43 cases (10%) requiring hospitalisation. Among 445 cases for whom information about complications was available, four cases were reported with encephalitis (1%), all among children, 29 cases with pneumonia (7%, median age 10 years), and 31 cases with otitis media (7%). No deaths were reported.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...&OrderNumber=1

updated here 2008:

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...ArticleId=8043


Again, I feel this is evidence that this vaccine is effective.



______________________

It's the VAXed kids who are spreading the Measles with the shedding effect! Vaccines don't protect you from getting the virus they protect from getting the symptomes. Just because x amount of Vaxed kids get Measles doesn't mean that a whole lot more arn't walking around with the disease.

before I offer evidence to the contrary I need to clarify what you are saying. Are you claiming that the MMR does not offer "herd immunity" (protection against transmission)

[mkmoro311]

Quote:
It's the VAXed kids who are spreading the Measles with the shedding effect! Vaccines don't protect you from getting the virus they protect from getting the symptomes. Just because x amount of Vaxed kids get Measles doesn't mean that a whole lot more arn't walking around with the disease.

before I offer evidence to the contrary I need to clarify what you are saying. Are you claiming that the MMR does not offer "herd immunity" (protection against transmission)

No, I'm not saying that. What I mean is that just cause you don't have a symptoms doesn't mean you don't have the virus and are spreading it to others.

[llamalluv]

131 cases so far this year?

OMG, it's an epidemic! Circle the wagons! Hide your virgins! Arm yourselves! Panic! Mayhem! Looting! Rioting! Aaaaaaaaaaaaah! :

Or, you know, just keep an eye on your kids and give them plenty of fluids and vitamin A if they develop measles.

[carriebft]

Ok, so how do you explain the situations in which these outbreaks occurred. You claim it is the vaccinated kids spreading the measles, yet these outbreaks are occurring in groups amongst unvaccinated kids. They are then spreading it into playgroups, homeschooling groups, schools where vaccination status is low or not present. Example: child went to italy to area of high nonvax status, brings home measles, spreads to homeschool group where none are vaccinated. Where is the vaccinated group spreading in this timeline?

Or how about in Switzerland, again, the outbreak is in a region of low vaccination and spreading amongst groups who refuse vaccination.


For the record, I am all about choice. I know that my choice to do MMR isn't going to offer 100% protection. I also know that every family makes their own choice and I can never know their reasoning but it is their choice to make.

What I don't agree with is closing eyes to the science. I think we have to accept that lower vaccination rates means more measles out there and that it will spread primarily amongst unvaccinated and at risk groups.

[lauradbg]

131 cases so far this year?

OMG, it's an epidemic! Circle the wagons! Hide your virgins! Arm yourselves! Panic! Mayhem! Looting! Rioting! Aaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Or, you know, just keep an eye on your kids and give them plenty of fluids if they develop measles.

[PenelopeJune]

Thank you, MissRubyandKen! I'm going to see if I can send an email to the people who have put that ad up.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by llamalluv

131 cases so far this year?

OMG, it's an epidemic! Circle the wagons! Hide your virgins! Arm yourselves! Panic! Mayhem! Looting! Rioting! Aaaaaaaaaaaaah! :

Or, you know, just keep an eye on your kids and give them plenty of fluids if they develop measles.

This is another thing that bothers me. Both sides seem to make fun of each other about how the other feels about something like measles.

On one hand you have people saying that those who refuse vaccination and are not worried about measles are neglecting their kids and all that horrible stuff that goes along with those accusations.

On the other hand, you have the anti vax group making fun of those who chose to get the vaccination and/or feel the risks of the measles are greater than they would like.

Am I "afraid" of measles and full of fear, cowering around worrying about it? NO! of course not. But I want to protect my kids from it because I feel there is a safe and effective way to do so. I feel there is risk of them getting the disease and have chosen to lower that risk.

[MissRubyandKen]

Well my dd is 6 months, so not eligible for MMR yet, but I for one, presently, don't want her to get measles or the vax. I don't like the risks of either and do not want to purposely expose her to either.

[llamalluv]

Originally Posted by carriebft

This is another thing that bothers me. Both sides seem to make fun of each other about how the other feels about something like measles.

On one hand you have people saying that those who refuse vaccination and are not worried about measles are neglecting their kids and all that horrible stuff that goes along with those accusations.

On the other hand, you have the anti vax group making fun of those who chose to get the vaccination and/or feel the risks of the measles are greater than they would like.

Am I "afraid" of measles and full of fear, cowering around worrying about it? NO! of course not. But I want to protect my kids from it because I feel there is a safe and effective way to do so. I feel there is risk of them getting the disease and have chosen to lower that risk.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel bad. I'm still on the fence about vaxing myself - I was vaxed, my mother was not (weren't available, she got through measles, mumps, and rubella just fine, as did all my ancestors) and I'm pro-life and some of the vaccines are manufactured using parts of 1 or 2 aborted fetuses (yes, I know they would be older than my mother by now...) so I'm very torn. I'm leaning towards the non-vax. DH isn't sure. So, I'm kind of making fun of myself, too.

However, to say that 131 cases in the U.S. is a huge problem just seems....stupid (for lack of a more mature term) to me, based on what is happening in third world countries. I'm sure that ANY country in Africa would LOVE to have their death toll fall to below 20.

[Unoppressed MAMA Q]

"Vaccine refusals fuel measles outbreak"

Just looking at the title tells us that this is an extremist 'article'.

It makes me giggle. Vaccine refusals fuel measles outbreak? I thought measles fueled measles outbreaks.

Do you like the way they skew it to having vaccines be some kind of birth right? Some sort of default, like having an umbilical cord?

Even if you fully believe in the myth of the vaccine as magical savior from measles, you still have to recognize the silliness of the title.

[carriebft]

Wait...she will take measles over the CHANCE of brain damage?

So this doctor obviously knows nothing about measles (she is saying "I will take a disease that carries a chance of brain damage as a complication over the chance of brain damage"...)



llamalluv: all good I see what you mean.

[wunderbubble]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Ok, so how do you explain the situations in which these outbreaks occurred. You claim it is the vaccinated kids spreading the measles, yet these outbreaks are occurring in groups amongst unvaccinated kids. They are then spreading it into playgroups, homeschooling groups, schools where vaccination status is low or not present. Example: child went to italy to area of high nonvax status, brings home measles, spreads to homeschool group where none are vaccinated. Where is the vaccinated group spreading in this timeline?

Or how about in Switzerland, again, the outbreak is in a region of low vaccination and spreading amongst groups who refuse vaccination.


For the record, I am all about choice. I know that my choice to do MMR isn't going to offer 100% protection. I also know that every family makes their own choice and I can never know their reasoning but it is their choice to make.

What I don't agree with is closing eyes to the science. I think we have to accept that lower vaccination rates means more measles out there and that it will spread primarily amongst unvaccinated and at risk groups.

So let me get this ...

if it's unvaccinated kids the higher percentage group getting the measles and obtaining natural immunity which is substantialy better than immunity from a vaccine , then vaccinated people have a problem with unvaccinated people ...getting a normal once common childhood milestone (cdc stated in i belive 1967 it was a normal part of childhood) that this is a problem???

the thing i don't get is how people rely on the idea that an injection is going to wipe out disease...you are a living organism...there is always a disease or a predispositon to something...are we going to inject ourselves everytime we sneeze???? how many injections are enough???

I think it's silly that normal biological occurances are becoming crimes because people are refusing to become slaves to an injection program

Disease is a part of life, whether its measles or chicken pox or stubbing your toe or getting the sniffles (which could be mistaken for polio, but you wouldn't know it because media and propaganda conviently demonizes these conditions for pharmecutical profit).... and so this ridiculous idea of being injected without informed consent and in children near 50 times before kindergarten...

who cares if the mmr works or not...I don't want it...

if people think disease can be wiped out by injection, they may as well try to figure on how they will wipe out all living biological organisms, because only then will you eliminate disease...and as far as this idea of mandated medicine...this idea is as if i have no more choice and the pharmecutical companies are owning our bodies, my body, my child...not having a choice in medicine is slavery...i am not interested in being an experiment or lab rat status....

dispostion to disease is a persons' own responsibilty not every one elses, so if a person is susceptable to measles, the state of that persons own health is not the responsibility of everyone else, go get vaccinated if a person wants and.... that vaccinated individual can very possibly be the cause of an outbreak...because measles sheds....but i do not want that injected in my body...if i catch it it will go through normal route of infection and my body can respond with a natural response and obtain natural immunity(which is superior to artificial immunity), not artificial toxic neurological damaging vaccines.

[carriebft]

if it's unvaccinated kids the higher percentage group getting the measles and obtaining natural immunity which is substantialy better than immunity from a vaccine , then vaccinated people have a problem with unvaccinated people ...getting a normal once common childhood milestone (cdc stated in i belive 1967 it was a normal part of childhood) that this is a problem???

I don't understand what this paragraph is saying.

But if it is a summary of my post that you are looking for, I can write it here:

The evidence we have does not support the theory, posted by mkmoro311, that vaccinated individuals are the ones spreading the disease.

Part II of my post clarifies my position, which is that vaccination should be a personal choice of each individual family and that no one can tell another what to do as they cannot know their situations, risks, etc.

Part III of my post says that, despite my feelings in part II, I feel we cannot ignore the science.



I will not address the rest as it is full of lines that I disagree with as I wrote in post # 53 (such as the "slave" line) and stuff that has nothing to do with my post (forced vaccination, for example)

[La Sombra]

[QUOTE=carriebft;12009280]Wait...she will take measles over the CHANCE of brain damage?

So this doctor obviously knows nothing about measles (she is saying "I will take a disease that carries a chance of brain damage as a complication over the chance of brain damage"...)



With all due respect, Carriebft, what you're saying sounds good until you consider it more deeply. Yes, both the disease and the vaccine AND the disease carry risk of brain damage. So the question then is, obviously, which has the higher risk? And I believe the doctor is addressing the fact that the risk with the vaccine is higher than with the disease.

Also, if I may address llamaluv's jesting post about the "epidemic," I think the reason that her post was so funny was not because it was directed in a mean-spirited way towards parents who chose to administer this vaccine to their children but because it turned the news article's hysterical headline on ITS head. I think parents who chose not to vaccinate--or, more specifically, not to give this vaccine--are sick of big pharma and the news media painting such a hysterical picture of what were once common childhood diseases. It strikes a particular sensitive nerve with those of us don't vaccinate, I think, to read articles like this, which seem to suggest that parents who don't vaccinate are obviously irresponsible and uneducated because, after all, these diseases are DEADLY. So llamaluv's detournement was a humorous reminder to those of us who feel that sting that, in fact, we aren't being irresponsible, that this disease really is generally a mild one.

I guess what I'm saying is that I, for one, feel angered by articles like this but that my feelings needn't be personal or taken out on people who do choose to vaccinate their kids. That's how I took llamaluv's post.