Socialization?

[p1gg1e]

What does that really mean. When I talk to others about school and my ODD they tell me " well you want her to be socialized" or " how will she get socialization?"

Being home schooled myself after middle school I don't really understand what this means ( guess my parents screwed up ). It does make me uncomfortable when people say this.

So what does this mean and how would you not socialize your child? From my understanding just being you are socialized into some culture. Or is this the fear of them not fitting in with the whole of society and fitting in more with a sub culture?

I'm not worried really about what people seem to think is something she needs but rather some mainstream concept I'm not getting.

[birdie22]

I'm in the middle of a fantastic book about homeschool socialization... "The Well-Adjusted Child" by (?) Gathercole.

The author points out that exactly what you say: "socialization" too vague a term. It's really in the eye of the beholder. It might be better to ask them for an example. It might mean "Will he be able to interact with others in a socially acceptable way?" or "Will he learn to consider others' needs?" or "Will he be able to be an independent adult after spending his entire childhood stuck at the kitchen table with his mommy?"

It's surprising how often people are really talking about negative things... dealing with bullies and peer pressure for example. I plan to teach by example. I will not be bullied or "peer pressured" into sending my boys to school just because everybody else is doing it.

[frogguruami]

I think that is a question of ignorance.

My standard response to "What about socialization?" is, while giggling, "If we socialized anymore we wouldn't get anything done."

and

to "Aren't you worried about socialization?" is, with a completely straight face, "Yes, that's why we homeschool."

[ABand3]

Originally Posted by birdie22

I'm in the middle of a fantastic book about homeschool socialization... "The Well-Adjusted Child" by (?) Gathercole.

Yes, ITA this is a great book! She analyzes what the socialization question is all about, and makes a great argument that perhaps hs socialization should be the standard against which we worry about the socialization of in-school children.

[dawningmama]

Honestly, when people ask the socialization question, I think they are really asking what forces will be in play to intimidate my kids into conforming to societal "norms." No, really.

[sardine mama]

I think when people ask this question they are really saying, "Aren't you afraid your kids are gonna be weird?" Honestly, I don't know what else they could be asking. Since I get asked this question at dance class, soccer practice, and during kids' parties - they're not really asking whether or not my kids are exposed to social outings. One time a relative said, "Don't you think she should be in school so she'll have friends?" and I was like, "I don't have time to talk now because I've got to go pick her up at the movies where she is currently hanging out with her friends..." and it didn't hit home. People will also comment on how polite and well-behaved my children are and then in the same breath bring up socialization. We just find it all amusing and try to give it the same amount of importance as the person asking, which is very little, obviously.
As for the real question of "weirdness" - our kids were destined for this with or without school. And really, does school cure "weirdness"? Are there no weird kids in school? Ask a school kid, they'll tell you who the weird kids are and usually not so nicely. I'll keep my weirdos at home

[plantmama]

I'm not currently home schooling my kids (they aren't school aged) but was asked this question quite often as a home schooled middle and high schooler. I think it is actually the biggest drawback to home schooling for the kids and really the biggest reason dh and I are pretty hesitant. When I say "it" I mean not having as much access to people the same age who the children can befriend because those people spend a lot of their time doing something hs children don't.
This was ridiculously important to me as a young girl and I felt lonely, isolated, "weird". I also lived in a rural area, everyone in the home school group was significantly younger than me, I had gone to school far away before so had one local friend and was very self conscious and shy.
I think everyone does it so differently that socialization is not a universal problem for home schoolers but I think in some cases can be a huge problem.
I had a dry spell socially for 5-6 years and then I got my driver's liscense and started working and got out of it.
Anyway I still sometimes think I missed out on some sort of universal "experience" that is highschool or middle school. Only now I'm not so sure that is a bad thing

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by frogguruami

I think that is a question of ignorance.

ITA... and I am beyond sick of it. I'm getting to the point of being nasty--so when someone chides me on the lack of socialization (ESPECIALLY with a special needs child ) I say to them "Please don't tell me YOU drank that Kool-Aid, too..."

I had one person come right out and try to show me that I was wrong and that I just thought I was right because I had been a teacher and "all teachers think they're right". Oh yeah... I'm really serious.

I make no bones about telling people that I don't want other kids teaching my kid social skills--and that's what's happening. I don't care what PS district you're in, there are not enough adults to actively monitor and mentor social situations in a school. It's not about the quality of teachers or districts--it's about a system that simply isn't conducive to THAT education.

I often get "Your just sheltering your child and that's not fair--how will he cope in the world"?

Actually, I'm not sheltering him. I'm shadowing and supporting him. I don't intervene when his feelings are going to get hurt or he's going to cry--I only intervene if he's about to be hit (and yeah--it's happened) or is hitting because he's not going to learn anything from that experience. (people argue me on this--mostly men). But I see what happens and I can mentor him on how it made him felt and how it could've been different.

Frankly, anyone that meets my 4yo would have nerve to question socialization. Of course, someone always has SOMEthing to say--so it's that he's too mature for his age because he's not around kids enough. Okay--so him being an only child has NOTHING to do with it... right?

[LauraN]

Just this weekend, the wife of one of DH's co-workers told me she has a friend who homeschools. Her friend's daughter is so shy that this woman thinks her friend should put her daughter in school. You know, so she won't be so shy : And I, as a homeschooler, was supposed to agree with this.

[milehighmonkeys]

IMO, socialization in schools is a myth. Also, I don't really think the people who ask this question even know what it means. I must give people a funny or dirty look when they ask me, because they're quick to drop it. Maybe you should ask them how they could possible socialize their children in school. They don't get any real mentoring and they essentially end up socializing each other. What kind of sense does that make? Also, children in school miss out on very important socialization that people have to deal with outside of school because they're in school all day. The best socialization occurs in real life and in real time. At the bank, the grocery store and Dr.'s office. Being polite to people you meet, meeting new people (even children) and even helping others in need. In school, kids are with the same kids every day. They very rarely get out of their comfort zones. I kind of feel like my social awkwardness is due to socialization through school. When I graduated, I was so intimidated by adults that I was very awkward around any authority figure. Sure, kids see their teachers every day, but they're at the front of the class and the kids don't need to really interact with them if they don't want to.

[p1gg1e]

Originally Posted by sardine mama

I'll keep my weirdos at home

These is my thoughts exactly. People in H's family are worried that our kids will be weird. Well to flipping late look at their parents we are weird. I really am excited about my kids being different , thinking different , and being outside the norm box...in a good way. I'm not raising the Jones's kids!

Guess its fear that drives this question. I know that they are concerned and honestly hope that maybe the apple will fall far from the tree.

I grew up completely different from H and its really a culture shock for his family. Now 7 years later they have gotten used to me and my odd ways, but I know deep down they are hoping that the kids will be normal LOL

IL's were a little too excited that I put ODD in preschool...little do they know that I'm just taking a break to set up for home schooling.

When I was HS I was volunteering 3 days a week and out with my friends often. I was giving tours of museums and giving back to the community. I meet really important people ( John Glenn twice ), new conferences , spoke at HS conference , dated etc.

Guess what I'm still a

[eastkygal]

I am still deciding whether or not we will homeschool (we are currently doing homeschool preschool), and "socialization" is my main concern. I have friends that were homeschooled and rarely around children their own age outside of their families. When they were finally they had a really hard time with it. I also want my child to be around children her age, but too to experience a variety of people, cultures, and beliefs. I'm not quite sure how that works with homeschool yet, and especially since we live off-grid. The mom I know who homeschools often mentions she wished her children had friends.

[p1gg1e]

Originally Posted by eastkygal

I am still deciding whether or not we will homeschool (we are currently doing homeschool preschool), and "socialization" is my main concern. I have friends that were homeschooled and rarely around children their own age outside of their families. When they were finally they had a really hard time with it. I also want my child to be around children her age, but too to experience a variety of people, cultures, and beliefs. I'm not quite sure how that works with homeschool yet, and especially since we live off-grid. The mom I know who homeschools often mentions she wished her children had friends.

I volunteered in my community during the day and there are so many HS in the US anymore that I'm sure there are others in your area. If you look hard enough you will find them. Sometimes they were highly religious groups and it was hard for me esp if they wanted me to conform. but for the most part I was more social and had more friends HS then the later because I could make friends from a large population rather then just the 30 in the classroom that year.

[mommy68]

from Wikipedia:

The term socialization is used by sociologists, social psychologists and educationalists to refer to the process of learning one’s culture and how to live within it. For the individual it provides the skills and habits necessary for acting and participating within their society. For the society, inducting all individual members into its moral norms, attitudes, values, motives, social roles, language and symbols is the ‘means by which social and cultural continuity are attained’ (Clausen 1968: 5).

It mentions nothing about children in general nor does it mention that children need to be in a classroom for at least 180 days per year, 5 days a week, for 7 hours per day in order to get socialization. Plus, when is the last time you met an adult that held down a job working only with other people their own age for 40 hours a week? Doing such a thing in PS for 12 years prepares a child for nothing except how to deal (or not deal) with peer pressure and "sometimes" demanding adults who claim to be their teachers.

My children get "social" time in when they go to the store with me, various other errands each day of the week, with their family, their friends, homeschool field trips and our homeschool co-op and gym classes. They also have music classes and gymnastics. They get plenty of social time out in "society" and in the "culture" that we live in.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by sardine mama

I think when people ask this question they are really saying, "Aren't you afraid your kids are gonna be weird?"

Agree.

My kids might be weird but I like the fact that they can chat with the receptionist at the doctor's office or the cashier at the grocery store, even my 6 yr old does this...and very well if I should say so myself. Oh, and they each also have the ability to chit chat with kids their own age as needed as well. So yeah, I could care less that they are no longer in a classroom with kids their own age all day ragging on them, poking fun of them or bullying them. I like to think my kids are above that sort of behavior long before most kids learn to outgrow it. To each his own.

[milkybean]

I generally think that people are really meaning *socializing*. I went to school, and that's all that was happening with the kids, just socializing. Having quick conversations in the hallways before sitting down for another hour.

Socialization is what my 4 year old does when he greets brand new people happily, when he talks to adults, when he talks to kids, when he plays peekaboo with babies while waiting in line at the post office (something he NEVER got into as a baby and I'm a bit mystified about it!). He gets along with people of all ages so far, and that to me is more valuable than if he can have a quick convo before dressing for PE or whatever.

Originally Posted by plantmama

This was ridiculously important to me as a young girl and I felt lonely, isolated, "weird". I also lived in a rural area, everyone in the home school group was significantly younger than me, I had gone to school far away before so had one local friend and was very self conscious and shy.
I think everyone does it so differently that socialization is not a universal problem for home schoolers but I think in some cases can be a huge problem.
I had a dry spell socially for 5-6 years and then I got my driver's liscense and started working and got out of it.
Anyway I still sometimes think I missed out on some sort of universal "experience" that is highschool or middle school. Only now I'm not so sure that is a bad thing

You know what? Everyone missed out on some sort of universal experience. Even when they were in it.

I remember watching Breakfast Club and, while loving it, wondering why MY high school wasn't like that! We had detention after school, not on weekends. In a classroom, not a huge library. And what was up with that library, why did it have a radio station in it? (for the record my HS had one of the only HS radio stations, but it certainly wasn't in the library!) And everything was indoors, how odd! I lived in CA and our schools had outdoor corridors, while BC was set in the midwest where they couldn't do that lest you freeze, LOL.

And when I got into college and just out of college, hey, St Elmo's Fire didn't meet my experience, either!

My brother's HS experience was different than mine b/c he was more outgoing AND he went to a different school 3 of his 4 years than I did. Much different experience. He went to Duke, I went to a small university in the NW, very different.

I have a bizarre curiousity about school in England, and want to understand what the terms mean; someone in England didn't have the same experience as I did, etc etc etc.


From going to my 20 year HS reunion last September, I realized that we ALL felt marginalized, we all felt different, we all felt like the "other". I think only the very few elite cheerleader/popular/rich girls felt that they were part of something (I would have said "kids", but at this reunion I talked to the football/popular/rich boys and they were very kind and friendly and remembered me, while those few girls were still VERY much stuck together in the past), and they felt part of something at the time. My "group" made fun of them quietly in HS, and out loud at the reunion (when they were screaming swear words at us b/c we wouldn't listen to their speeches congratulating themselves), b/c frankly, the outsiders outnumbered the insiders, and we had all figured that out!



Also, I was in school while being incredibly shy. I was so shy that I rarely called anyone. At the end of 3rd grade my mom was planning on moving us across the country, but ultimately decided not to do so. But all my friends thought I was moving. They signed cards, an autograph book, the whole thing! We cried! I still lived at the same house, and didn't see anyone all summer long, b/c they thought I was gone and I was embarrassed. Then for 4th grade my mom put us in a different school closer to her work (1 room schoolhouse, 3 teachers, AWESOME experience, best of all of my schooling, and the place still exists), so that was a whole school year with no contact with my old friends. Then the next summer, and I hadn't yet contacted anyone and they all thought I was in NY, and my mom decided we could go to the old school again....the faces on everyone's faces when I walked in! All b/c I was SO shy and SO embarrassed, and felt on the outside and that no one would care, that I didn't call anyone.

So feeling socially alone and being shy aren't something that never go along with schooling. Even though high school, I felt nauseous every morning, tried to play hooky with my mom every day (she worked), and every day came home with blotchy near-welts on my face, neck, and chest, b/c of the stress of the "socializing" I experienced.

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by frogguruami

to "Aren't you worried about socialization?" is, with a completely straight face, "Yes, that's why we homeschool."

Great answer

Originally Posted by sardine mama

I think when people ask this question they are really saying, "Aren't you afraid your kids are gonna be weird?"

Totally loved your post! And I HOPE my kids are gonna be weird! I like that they will have the opportunity to be themselves and not feel compelled to look & act like every other kid their age. I'm kinda weird myself and I value weirdness

Originally Posted by LauraN

Her friend's daughter is so shy that this woman thinks her friend should put her daughter in school. You know, so she won't be so shy : And I, as a homeschooler, was supposed to agree with this.

Yes that makes sense.. cause then you'd have an extremely anxious shy child : I was that anxious kid and I hated going to school :S

My entire school 'career' I had the same group of FOUR friends to pretty much the exclusion of the entire rest of the school, and we liked it that way. Socialization was what we did on the weekends, since ya couldn't so much as part your lips to speak in school lol.

[Otterella]

We're not there yet, but planning on homeschooling, and I plan on using my MIL's line, "Yes, isn't it awful how much socialization goes on in school when they're supposed to be learning?"

[greenthumb3]

Originally Posted by LauraN

Just this weekend, the wife of one of DH's co-workers told me she has a friend who homeschools. Her friend's daughter is so shy that this woman thinks her friend should put her daughter in school. You know, so she won't be so shy : And I, as a homeschooler, was supposed to agree with this.

You know, after reading this, it reminded me of a day I was urged by another mother at the park to put my son in school so he could learn to be less "bossy" (what can I say, he's my oldest!). As if being around 25 other kids his age would temper that terrible trait of self-assurance and leadership. I'm certain it would, actually, hence no school for us!

For some reason, many people seem to think school will "fix" things in kids better than families can.

Perhaps school is seen to be as more successful than families at producing people? Ya know, can't trust regular people, just institutions...

[heket]

Originally Posted by greenthumb3

For some reason, many people seem to think school will "fix" things in kids better than families can.

My anecdote:
So, last year as I was in the quandary of schooling or homeschooling... I learned of a woman at my (then new) work who was very involved with her sons' local schools and thus the local district. (I work in the same city as I live.)

So I asked her about her experiences and to me it was all negative. How she had to be on the teachers to get the appropriate lessons/homework/notes for her boys and on the school to get announcements/parent participation items/ school fundraisers, etc. How she wasn't happy with the elementary school her youngest attended and had him transferred to another local school. How different it was when her kids went to the schools in the more affluent area that were within the same district but different city than the ones she was assigned. Even a story for how many times she had been to the office of the local school board superintendent, where, as she said, "They now know MY name!" Okay, I will grant that she is an active parent, but...

So, as my oldest then was 3 going on 4 (and I was at the crossroad of HS or enroll into school), I said, "Well, from what you tell me, it makes homeschooling sound better and better. I'm not sure I'd want to deal with all that."

And her reply? "Girl, that brings on a whole new set of problems." Me confused asked, "Like what?" She said, "You know, socialization. That's at least something I never had to worry about with the boys."

Okay, so it's fine to submit your children to all these problems you see in the local schools because they were "socialized" as you see is the norm? Oh wait, I forgot, as homeschoolers we keep them in closets or participate in this week's cult du jour.

So dd is kinder age and should be entering the local schools this week. Only, we decided that homeschooling is a better fit for our family. So she'll start school later on in September.