Is circ. any less 'traumatic' for a potty learned toddler than an infant?

[StormySar]

My husband posed the question and I have no idea...

But I'm assuming with a toddler, they'd put them under general anesthetic for such a thing, right?

Using the potty, there would be less chance of infection than keeping in a diaper 24 hrs a day?

If skin retracts, less injury to the penis?

But how much more painful would the after pain be? More likely to be remembered? Will they give a toddler anything for pain relief, and does it work worth a darn?

For a family that is planning on circing their child, and nothing will change their minds, is it better for the child to go through this as an infant or a toddler?

Never thought about circing a toddler, but guess I might as well learn about it as a student is bound to ask the question at some point!

[perspective]

Originally Posted by StormySar

My husband posed the question and I have no idea...

But I'm assuming with a toddler, they'd put them under general anesthetic for such a thing, right?

Using the potty, there would be less chance of infection than keeping in a diaper 24 hrs a day?

If skin retracts, less injury to the penis?

But how much more painful would the after pain be? More likely to be remembered? Will they give a toddler anything for pain relief, and does it work worth a darn?

For a family that is planning on circing their child, and nothing will change their minds, is it better for the child to go through this as an infant or a toddler?

Never thought about circing a toddler, but guess I might as well learn about it as a student is bound to ask the question at some point!

In American culture we have distorted view of the male body. The foreskin is not really seen as a normal part of the body, but this deformation that needs to be fixed.

I would recommend to the family to wait till he is a toddler, first because your right about everything you suggested about the possible benefits of waiting. But also giving a few months with their intact son will let them see that the foreskin is as much part of his body as anything else, and its not just a disposable piece, so there is a greater chance they may change their mind.

[water]

My brother was circumcised as a toddler, at 2yo so I was 4yo at the time and I STILL CLEARLY remember him screaming and screaming in terror and agony after, and when my parents made him take a bath.

It was so horribly traumatizing to me just watching as a 4yo, and to him as a 2yo. I am crying again just remembering this, 35 years later.

[Minky]

I'd recommend they do it as a toddler and hope they got used to their intact son the way my DH got used to ours.

[perspective]

Originally Posted by water

My brother was circumcised as a toddler, at 2yo so I was 4yo at the time and I STILL CLEARLY remember him screaming and screaming in terror and agony after, and when my parents made him take a bath.

It was so horribly traumatizing to me just watching as a 4yo, and to him as a 2yo. I am crying again just remembering this, 35 years later.

At what age did that "logical" assumption that children do not feel pain, cut off? Is it possible he could have had that done with no pain relief?

[lirpasirhc]

Originally Posted by water

My brother was circumcised as a toddler, at 2yo so I was 4yo at the time and I STILL CLEARLY remember him screaming and screaming in terror and agony after, and when my parents made him take a bath.

It was so horribly traumatizing to me just watching as a 4yo, and to him as a 2yo. I am crying again just remembering this, 35 years later.

the same thing happened to my 2-year-old bro when i was 14. it was horrifying. UAV doctors. at least we all knew my bro was in pain and he could get some pain relief meds and the surgery was done w/ general anesthesia. w/ an infant, the parents would never know he was in pain.

[lovesdaffodils]

Physically, I'm not sure. But emotionally, an older child knows what his penis looks and feels like. So I'd think waking up missing part of your penis would be really traumatizing.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by lovesdaffodils

Physically, I'm not sure. But emotionally, an older child knows what his penis looks and feels like. So I'd think waking up missing part of your penis would be really traumatizing.

This is how I see it too. Though obviously a toddler is stronger physically and the surgery would be less physically traumatic, I don't think that compensates for the emotional trauma of nonconsentual body modification on a child who is old enough to have formed a self image.

I also would not count on a toddler receiving general anesthiesia and/or sufficient post-op pain relief.

[needhelpplease]

My instinct is no. A toddler would get better anaesthetic at the time, but would still be in pain during recovery for some time, and would probably remember the pain as they get older but at the time they would not understand it fully. (Obviously, the fact that infants don't remember is no reason to do it then, but I think when they will be able to remember, but don't know what's happening, is possibly an even worse time.) They will also be more aware that something's missing because they will know what their penis looked like before.

But, it could be a useful tactic to delay people, if they end up realising it's not so bad and changing their mind. Sadly, I think some people would go through with it anyway.

[ewe+lamb]

I have successfully avoided the horrible operation of circumcision but the subject regularly comes up, as it did yesterday, I figured the longer I put it off the stronger my son's voice against it will be, he's 3 and I am very aware how much I need to protect him, but it's proving to be successful for the timebeing and if dh wants to continue it's he that'll have to deal with everything - that scares him so he'll never do it - I really hope anyway. But it anyone wants to bombard me with dr research, supporting no circ then I can keep bombarding him through his email, the more I do it the more he'll realise that we're against it.

But getting to your question, I think that routine of operation will be better for the toddler involved but the traumatism of him loosing a body part with no control over the abuse done to him would be considerably high - or that's what I think for my ds, I don't think my ds would ever forgive my dh for insisting on this, but then neither could I .....

Very cute little addage - this is a conversation between my ds and I whilst he was on the toilet.

DS: Mummy, you buy? (whilst playing with his penis)
Me: No, mummy didn't buy
DS: Mummy, you make?
Me: Well, yes, mummy and daddy made it
Thoughtful pause
DS: It's my favourite!!!

[MotherWillow]

My brother was also circumcised at age 2 1/2 because he was ballooning and the UAV doctors told my mother it would damage his kidneys. :

The Doctor took my brother into a procedure room at the hospital and would not allow my mother to go back.

She can still remember his screams. The UAV Dr. circumcised him with no general anesthesia or any sort of pain relief.

I still remember him walking around naked for weeks pointing to his penis and saying "ouchie". He would scream and cry with every bath and diaper change.

[tlh]

I think they are about equal.A babies circumcision is traumatic during and while healing.A toddlers circumcision if anesthesia is used would be traumatic before the surgery and the aftermath would be much worse than for a baby.So the choice would be between which traumatic period you prefer but most parents shouldn't want any traumatic period.

[Rhiannon Feimorgan]

A friend of mine's dh "had to be" circumcised at 2. He still remembers the pain and trama of it. In fact that is the reson they chose to have their ds cut at birth so he wouldn't "have to" have it done when he could remember it. I wish I had known them then and been able to give then info. I don't belive he ever really "had to" be cut.

I think it is least tramatic to an adult who know's what he is getting into and chooses it. The penis's of minors should be left alone period.

[A&A]

At what age is it best to be sexually violated. Hmmm. No answer to that one.

[In Exile]

Originally Posted by MotherWillow

My brother was also circumcised at age 2 1/2 because he was ballooning and the UAV doctors told my mother it would damage his kidneys. :

The Doctor took my brother into a procedure room at the hospital and would not allow my mother to go back.

She can still remember his screams. The UAV Dr. circumcised him with no general anesthesia or any sort of pain relief.

I still remember him walking around naked for weeks pointing to his penis and saying "ouchie". He would scream and cry with every bath and diaper change.

Oh God, that sounds so awful. Sorry for you and your brother, that is so awful.

I remember a friend's son going through Hypospadia Surgery (very severe case, foresking was needed to build glans) and the effin UA Violation staff did NOT call her as soon as he was waking up as they had promised.

Instead she walked into the room to find her baby (10 months at the time) screaming his head off in despair, being without mommy waking up after general anesthesia. The mom is wondering to that day how long he was screaming for her.

I saw first hand how it took the little guy about 7 or 8 months to emotionally recover from that- he now finally "trusts" his mom again and is back to his old self- and this was needed surgery and yet it was a very, very hard time for the boy and the family.

What the **** makes you think it's okay to say to parents oh, you can be there for him when he wakes up and then obviously do the opposite??

[gabysmom617]

Gosh. Somehow, I wasn't expecting this thread to be so graphic. An error in my judgement perhaps. I can't handle reading stuff like this lately. Honestly, if I had known such graphic descriptions would be here, i wouldn't have clicked in. Wish there was some kind of warning. My nerves are have been shot recently. It's weird, because graphic stuff usually doesn't bother me, unless it pertains to circ. My kid was just 2 not to long any. The nightmares I'm gonna get from this. : Perhaps I need to stay out of cac altogether for a while...

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by StormySar

My husband posed the question and I have no idea...

But I'm assuming with a toddler, they'd put them under general anesthetic for such a thing, right?

Using the potty, there would be less chance of infection than keeping in a diaper 24 hrs a day?

If skin retracts, less injury to the penis?

But how much more painful would the after pain be? More likely to be remembered? Will they give a toddler anything for pain relief, and does it work worth a darn?

For a family that is planning on circing their child, and nothing will change their minds, is it better for the child to go through this as an infant or a toddler?

Never thought about circing a toddler, but guess I might as well learn about it as a student is bound to ask the question at some point!

NO, no, no. It is the wrong question to be asking. The pain is only part of the equation. More importantly, the infant/child has a righ to genital integrity until they are old enough, and informed enough to make a carefully thought out decision. Toddler or infant, they cannot do so.

The child has a legal right to bodily integrity. Upon reaching adulthood, the child may have a right to sue to recover damages for injuries or unnecessary surgery sustained in childhood.

The parent must ethically and legally make decisions for the child based solely on the best interests of the child.

As an adult, the person can understand the tradeoffs and reasons for why the decision is made, and it is his decison. That is how to reduce the trauma.

Regards

[buckeyedoc]

I think it would be psychologically worse as a toddler who is aware of what was done, but there is the chance the parents would "get used to" seeing a foreskin in the home and just not get it done. That would be the big advantage of waiting.

The infant vs. older kid/adult circumcision issue makes me think of spaying dogs vs. hysterectomy in women. Dogs, especially young ones, wake up after surgery and seem almost back to normal, especially with a couple of days of pain relievers. They are usually running around. The couple women I've seen post-hysterectomy have been in severe pain and bedridden. I think the difference is not in the actual pain level in dogs vs. humans, but the fact that the dogs don't know what happened and therefore just have to move on. Thus, circumcised infants are in as much pain as circumcised older kids/adults, but they don't have any understanding of what happened and the typical way to react to it, so they might "seem" normal and non-painful.

[Collinsky]

Originally Posted by StormySar

More likely to be remembered?

Just to address this one aspect, because it tends to come up a lot - that it's better to do it as an infant, so that they don't "remember" it. This shows a lack of understanding about memory. What they are talking about is explicit memory - actually having images and sensations to recall, and a feeling of recollection. That's "remembering" to most people, and it does come into play beginning in the 2nd year of life.

But there is another type of *equally valid* memory called implicit memory, and it is present from the beginning of life... it does not involve our conscious attention in any way, and there is no sense of recollection. Things that we experience in the first year or two of life are recorded in a different part of our brain - but make no mistake, they are recorded. And they are foundational to our experience of the world. The difference is, that explicit memory can be "remembered" and therefore there is a possibility of processing it and working through it. With implicit memory, where we don't have that same awareness - that is much more difficult. I would infinitely prefer my children to have a painful or traumatic experience when they can remember the pain and fear, and work through that with them. An infant's experiences don't become part of their consciousness, but part of their subconscious experience and goes on to affect every aspect of their life - it colors the consciousness that develops later. If that makes any sense.

Originally Posted by Greg B

It is the wrong question to be asking. The pain is only part of the equation. More importantly, the infant/child has a righ to genital integrity until they are old enough, and informed enough to make a carefully thought out decision. Toddler or infant, they cannot do so.

Exactly. I totally agree!

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by Collinsky

Just to address this one aspect, because it tends to come up a lot - that it's better to do it as an infant, so that they don't "remember" it. This shows a lack of understanding about memory. What they are talking about is explicit memory - actually having images and sensations to recall, and a feeling of recollection. That's "remembering" to most people, and it does come into play beginning in the 2nd year of life.

But there is another type of *equally valid* memory called implicit memory, and it is present from the beginning of life... it does not involve our conscious attention in any way, and there is no sense of recollection. Things that we experience in the first year or two of life are recorded in a different part of our brain - but make no mistake, they are recorded. And they are foundational to our experience of the world. The difference is, that explicit memory can be "remembered" and therefore there is a possibility of processing it and working through it. With implicit memory, where we don't have that same awareness - that is much more difficult. I would infinitely prefer my children to have a painful or traumatic experience when they can remember the pain and fear, and work through that with them. An infant's experiences don't become part of their consciousness, but part of their subconscious experience and goes on to affect every aspect of their life - it colors the consciousness that develops later. If that makes any sense.

Oohhhh, very interesting! Do you have any kind of a good site that explains this that could be linked? It would make a great addition to an anti-circ siggie.