Musings...

[jmmsunshine]

The other day DS and I were watching Animal Planet. The show was about cheetahs, which apparently have severely dwindled in numbers, and now live mostly in reserves. The handlers have found that when the babies are handled early, they grow up to work/fit in better with the human handlers. So, they've implemented a program where the babe's are born, nurse with mom for 10 days, and then are seperated and hand raised by humans. I was surprized by my feelings, and by DS's feelings too.

DS kept asking why the babies weren't with their Mom? Maybe that's why they were crying so much. And, it bothered him that they couldn't nurse anymore. When he saw an adult cheetah, he asked if that was their mom, looking for them.

I was so struck... my not quite 3 year old nursling had empathy for baby cheetahs that were missing their mom, and he obviously was uncomfortable with the idea that they weren't allowed to nurse.

Beyond that, it bothered me. Shouldn't the mom be the best and obvious choice to raise the babes? And, if we know how important human milk is to human babies, and IMHO we're in a health crisis in the US because of generations of NOT breastfeeding, doesn't it follow that cheetah milk is just as important for cheetahs? So, I'm wondering if 20 or 30 years from now we find that these captive cheetahs are dying of heart problems or diabetes or cancer, will it be then that someone says, "Gee, maybe they need cheetah milk, not the formula we're creating to approximate cheetah milk..." And I'm wondering if generations go by and we find we've got cheetahs that don't socialize normally with each other, will someone say, "Hey, maybe we should leave them with their Mom - maybe that mother-baby time is really important..."

Never in my life did I think my experience as a breastfeeding mom would change me so much - that even watching a simple program on TV would elicit these thoughts. I'm so grateful for the people who have educated me and supported me in these breastfeeding years.

But now I've got to ask, am I nuts, or does anyone else see these things and think the same?

[MommyJoia]

oy... that's not good. It's always been my argument for BF that it's absurd to feed animals anything but their own milk so why wouldn't we?

I feel the same way that you and your nursling feel.

[avivaelona]

interesting thoughts. My son says the same kind of things when we see things like this on animal planet (we haven't seen this show though)

[Swan3]

Originally Posted by jmmsunshine

Never in my life did I think my experience as a breastfeeding mom would change me so much - that even watching a simple program on TV would elicit these thoughts. I'm so grateful for the people who have educated me and supported me in these breastfeeding years.

But now I've got to ask, am I nuts, or does anyone else see these things and think the same?

I am sitting here, nodding my head emphatically at your post. I've felt exactly the same thing when I've seen this at the zoo (baby gorilla being bottle fed to give mum a break and then they wonder why her milk dries up!!!) And also when I saw an ad for puppies being sold, the pics were of them nursing and I thought - these poor babies are going to be ripped from their mama and won't have that comfort of nursing. I felt heartbroken actually.

It made me not want to own pets because it means that I'd probably be getting one of these poor creatures that's been taken from its mother.

I know I never would have felt this way before having DD and nursing her...

[DisplacedYooper]

I have a hard time drinking cow's milk now since learning (at our University farm) the newborn calves are not even allowed to nurse right after birth!!! The goal is to separate them from the mama cows immediately and then milk out her colostrom by hand or give the calf frozen colostrom. Supposely it makes it easier to train them to drink their baby cow formula out of a bucket... :-(

I guess I knew all this intellectually, but it really hit home when I was boarding my horse at the same farm. The little calves trying to suck your fingers are really pitiful. I can't wait until we can get our own family cow and just take the small part of her milk that our family needs and leave the rest for her calf.

[mamaofthree]

i have heard about some people actually drinking cow colostrom so some calves don't even get that.
the whole thing is a mess IMHO. why do we need cheetahs to be easily handled by people? if we want to save them they need to know how to be around other cheetahs. i remember reading in something that the animals forget how to raise their young if they were never raised by their mother. how do you reteach a cheetah to nurse their young if they were never nursed themselves?
very sad.

h

[yogafeet]

I agree with you. It's one of the reasons I don't ingest dairy products.

[LeighB]

I saw that show too. Growing up Cheetah, I think. I couldn't figure out why they separated the babies from the mothers either. I know that the cheetah's cannot be released into the wild (they won't survive), but they didn't say anything about the nursing.

[Smokering]

And also when I saw an ad for puppies being sold, the pics were of them nursing and I thought - these poor babies are going to be ripped from their mama and won't have that comfort of nursing. I felt heartbroken actually.

It made me not want to own pets because it means that I'd probably be getting one of these poor creatures that's been taken from its mother.

Yes! I had this conversation with DH about a week ago. He wants to get a dog some day, and I made him promise that we wouldn't get one if it meant taking it away from its mother before it was weaned. I'm not even a fan of dogs, really, but it made my lactating little self come over all sad to think of puppies being forced away from their milk.

I've also developed a very strong sense of pity for formula-fed babies, just through watching how much my baby loves the milk. It's hard to imagine a baby expressing such delight and enthusiasm and bliss over being fed from a bottle, you know? I know bottles are sometimes necessary and all, but all I can think is poor babies, they're missing out on what babies love best!

[spughy]

The cheetah situation is sad, but unfortunately I think the reality is probably something along the lines of cheetas in captivity NEED to be comfortable with humans or else they succumb more easily to stress-related diseases and malnourishment. They are not, from what I have read, particularly robust animals, especially in captivity, and I don't think they will breed much at all in captivity unless they are comfortable. So my guess would be that the practice of removing them from their mamas is a "lesser of two evils" thing - the alternative being to watch the species slowly die off, in the absence of the power to actually save them in the wild. It is sad, but if weaning them early means a much better chance of them leading an overall less stressed, happier life, I don't think we can condemn it out of hand.

ETA: on the dog thing - just so you know, dogs wean their pups at about 8 weeks, and they do so quite vehemently. Our dog's mama was practically climbing the curtains to get the pups off her boobies by that point, and looked quite relieved when they left (ok, I'm anthropormorphizing that I'm sure - but she was DEFINITELY not comfortable with them nursing!) So just don't get a pup under 8 weeks, and you'll be ok. Dogs don't go in for extended nursing, even when given the option.

[SheBear]

Originally Posted by mamaofthree

the whole thing is a mess IMHO. why do we need cheetahs to be easily handled by people? if we want to save them they need to know how to be around other cheetahs. i remember reading in something that the animals forget how to raise their young if they were never raised by their mother. how do you reteach a cheetah to nurse their young if they were never nursed themselves?
very sad.

Originally Posted by spughy

The cheetah situation is sad, but unfortunately I think the reality is probably something along the lines of cheetas in captivity NEED to be comfortable with humans or else they succumb more easily to stress-related diseases and malnourishment. They are not, from what I have read, particularly robust animals, especially in captivity, and I don't think they will breed much at all in captivity unless they are comfortable. So my guess would be that the practice of removing them from their mamas is a "lesser of two evils" thing - the alternative being to watch the species slowly die off, in the absence of the power to actually save them in the wild. It is sad, but if weaning them early means a much better chance of them leading an overall less stressed, happier life, I don't think we can condemn it out of hand.

What spughy said. And also, while I agree that it's sad for both mama and baby cheetah to be separated so soon after birth, I think it's important to note that these people are looking at the long-term survival of the species, yk? And in order for that to happen, the current generation may have to suffer early separation/weaning so that the numbers can begin to increase. Eventually, if the effort is successful, they can stop separating mother/baby, and begin re-teaching them the parenting skills that have been lost, with a view to reintroducing them into the wild. But that takes time, and several generations, and right now it is a numbers game, pure and simple. Sad, but since the population/habitat have been so severely messed with, it's at the point of "crisis intervention" and doing things the "natural" way won't work, YK?

Kinda like how doctors/nurses poke and prod at a laboring woman until they've created an emergency situation, and then they have no choice but to step in with their technology and fix it. Okay, maybe that's not the best analogy, but YKWIM...

Anyway, my point (if I even had one!) was that since it's more than likely our (humans) fault that the cheetahs are facing extinction, and since we are really the only ones that have any hope of fixing the mess, then the ends (more cheetahs being born and surviving in captivity) justifies the means (separating newborn cheetahs from their mothers and giving them formula).

I also wonder--dunno for sure--if the early separation makes the mother cheetah's fertility return faster? If so, that would mean there's a chance to increase the numbers even more. Not the ideal (hard on the mama cheetah!) but it might factor in....