Several questions for vax experts on the board

[sophi4ka]

So I've done my reading (lots of it actually) and gathered some questions that are still not clear to me. Please help me solve those issues:

1) Suppose you are vaxed for a certain disease, but still catch it later on. If the disease if of a kind that gives you a lifetime immunity, will I then get the real, lifetime immunity? Like if DD gets vaxed for Measles and then catches Measles anyway, will it make her lifetime immune?

2) Is catching a once-in-a-lifetime disease from a recently vaxed child (like chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella) will give me (or anyone for that matter) a real, lifetime immunity?

3) According to Dr Sears' Vaccine Book, boosters are given to increase immunity. So that if one dose, for example, gives you 75% efficacy, after the second booster you will be 85% immune, after another one it will be 90% and then 95% (I just made up those numbers for the sake of example, but this is pretty much what he says).
However according to Neil Miller, boosters are given cause the vaxes just don't work for long and you have to "reapply them". Who is right?

4) According to Dr Sears' Vaccine Book, the claim that diseases were really disappearing before the vaxes is bogus. I think of Dr Sears as of a "smart guy", but this claim stands contrary to many other pretty smart people - like Neil Miller, Lauren Feder, Aviva Jill Romm, Mayer Eizenstein and probably more. So, again, who is right?

5) I was vaxed for Measles when I was a kid, so I guess this makes me not immune by now. What if DD gets Measles? It is a childhood disease, so it means that I will get it "really bad", right? On the one hand I would want her to get it so that she'd be immune later in life, but kind of afraid to catch it from her now as an adult. Same for Mumps, except that I never got it and was never vaxed

Thank you
Sophie

[alegna]

Originally Posted by sophi4ka

So I've done my reading (lots of it actually) and gathered some questions that are still not clear to me. Please help me solve those issues:

1) Suppose you are vaxed for a certain disease, but still catch it later on. If the disease if of a kind that gives you a lifetime immunity, will I then get the real, lifetime immunity? Like if DD gets vaxed for Measles and then catches Measles anyway, will it make her lifetime immune?

2) Is catching a once-in-a-lifetime disease from a recently vaxed child (like chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella) will give me (or anyone for that matter) a real, lifetime immunity?

3) According to Dr Sears' Vaccine Book, boosters are given to increase immunity. So that if one dose, for example, gives you 75% efficacy, after the second booster you will be 85% immune, after another one it will be 90% and then 95% (I just made up those numbers for the sake of example, but this is pretty much what he says).
However according to Neil Miller, boosters are given cause the vaxes just don't work for long and you have to "reapply them". Who is right?

4) According to Dr Sears' Vaccine Book, the claim that diseases were really disappearing before the vaxes is bogus. I think of Dr Sears as of a "smart guy", but this claim stands contrary to many other pretty smart people - like Neil Miller, Lauren Feder, Aviva Jill Romm, Mayer Eizenstein and probably more. So, again, who is right?

5) I was vaxed for Measles when I was a kid, so I guess this makes me not immune by now. What if DD gets Measles? It is a childhood disease, so it means that I will get it "really bad", right? On the one hand I would want her to get it so that she'd be immune later in life, but kind of afraid to catch it from her now as an adult. Same for Mumps, except that I never got it and was never vaxed

Thank you
Sophie

I'll try- I don't consider myself anything like an expert... but I'll give it a go.

1. Immunity would be the same as someone not vaxed. Some diseases are more likely to confer lifelong immunity than others.

2. Not known. Probably?

3. Depends on the disease/vax. Some extra doses are true boosters and increase your theoretical immunity level. Others simply are to catch people who didn't get "immune" the first time around. (the first vax might make 80% of people "immune" then after the second 90% of people are "immune" after the third 95% etc)

4. IMO the truth is somewhere in the middle most likely. There are too many unknowns really- like many diseases did not have clinical confirmation before there was a vax (polio for example)

5. Hard to say. Measles vax *appears* to be fairly effective. Seems like there's a fair chance you're still immune.

-Angela

[13Sandals]

I'll try to answer a few. good questions! my answers in bold..

Originally Posted by sophi4ka

1) Suppose you are vaxed for a certain disease, but still catch it later on. If the disease if of a kind that gives you a lifetime immunity, will I then get the real, lifetime immunity? Like if DD gets vaxed for Measles and then catches Measles anyway, will it make her lifetime immune? If the vax fails and you catch measles, you would get the level of immunity you would have gotten without the vax.

2) Is catching a once-in-a-lifetime disease from a recently vaxed child (like chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella) will give me (or anyone for that matter) a real, lifetime immunity? This is a very simplified answer: when you catch a disease from a recently vaxed child, the disease enters your body via the usual route of transmission (nose/throat) which engages the immune system in the intended way. This is one of the reasons the oral polio vaccine was thought to have been much more effective. So yes, you are likely to have more long-lasting immunity catching the virus from a vaccinated child and developing a clinical case.
3) According to Dr Sears' Vaccine Book, boosters are given to increase immunity. So that if one dose, for example, gives you 75% efficacy, after the second booster you will be 85% immune, after another one it will be 90% and then 95% (I just made up those numbers for the sake of example, but this is pretty much what he says).
However according to Neil Miller, boosters are given cause the vaxes just don't work for long and you have to "reapply them". Who is right?
I believe this depends on the vax. I don't fully understand how the DTP works, but I have read that your immunity does increase depending on how many doses.... However with the MMR - you either seroconvert or you don't. More than 80% of children that get the second MMR don't need the booster. The booster is to catch those that don't respond the first time. Really, all kids due for boosters should have titers checked to see if they really need revaccination. This is just too costly to be implemented, even though it makes sense -as many will maintain there's no harm in overvaccinating.

4) According to Dr Sears' Vaccine Book, the claim that diseases were really disappearing before the vaxes is bogus. I think of Dr Sears as of a "smart guy", but this claim stands contrary to many other pretty smart people - like Neil Miller, Lauren Feder, Aviva Jill Romm, Mayer Eizenstein and probably more. So, again, who is right? You decide! I like Dr. Sears too, but he's not infallible. He says that Rotavirus is one of the vaxes you should pick (totally worthless vax in my opinion) and he also states that adults should have TDap boosters to protect infants against pertussis, even though the inserts clearly state they have no idea how and if the boosters will affect transmission of pertussis to infants. He also leaves out that the DTP doesn't even prevent pertussis, only the bacterial toxin. I wonder if he even knows how this works. How anyone can maintain that diseases were not on the decline before the vax came out is beyond me.
5) I was vaxed for Measles when I was a kid, so I guess this makes me not immune by now. What if DD gets Measles? It is a childhood disease, so it means that I will get it "really bad", right? On the one hand I would want her to get it so that she'd be immune later in life, but kind of afraid to catch it from her now as an adult. Same for Mumps, except that I never got it and was never vaxed. THere's a good chance that you are still immune. If you are not though, you would likely come through it okay. Mumps tends to be non-problematic in even adults. If you are worried - you can get your titers checked. It would likely put your mind at rest!
Thank you
Sophie

[Emmeline II]

In the United States, tetanus is primarily a disease of older adults. Persons greater than or equal to 50 years of age now account for over 70% of reported cases. An average of 43 people per year contract Tetanus and there are 0-2 deaths out of a population of 301,139,947 (over 300 MILLION) in the US. (In comparison (FEMA) estimates there are 200 deaths and 750 severe injuries from lightning each year in the U.S.). A Tetanus vax at time of injury is supposed to be a booster to those current on vax and TIG (tetanus immunoglobulin) is for the unvaxed.

From 1992 through 2000 (9 years), 15 cases of tetanus in children <15 years of age were reported from 11 states. Two cases were in neonates <10 days of age;the other 13 cases were in children who ranged in age from 3to 14 years. The median length of hospitalization was 28 days; 8 children required mechanical ventilation. There were no deaths. (I don't have info on their state of health or wound care).

It is not the rust that causes tetanus, so a rusty nail in and of itself is not the issue. Tetanus needs an anaerobic environment to thrive. A wound that has bled is not typically that environment. Keep it clean and covered.

"Keep in mind that the tetanus vaccine became available for widespread civilian use in the late 1940's. Thus tetanus mortality had declined from 205 deaths per 100,000 wounds in the American Civil War (1860) to about .4 deaths per 100,000 population in 1947 at the beginning of widespread civilian use of the vaccine. This means that sanitation, nutrition, year around nutritional improvements, general hygiene, and wound hygiene had reduced the mortality and incidence of tetanus by as much as 99.8 percent before the widespread use of tetanus vaccine." Hilary Butler 89wds

[sophi4ka]

I completely forgot that I had my MMR titers checked about a year ago . So I went to check the document and it states that I am not immune to Measles (even though I was vaxed) and immune to Mumps (even though was never vaxed or obviously sick with it)

Sophie

[Jaimep]

Everyone else answered really well. I will only disagree with Dr. Sears on point #4.

I have actually seen charts and medical journal from years before they had vaccinations and the diseases were in decline. Why? Because of cleanliness, more indoor plumbing (hand washing) etc.. For a really old example, in biblical times Jewish persons had a lot of rules. One of them was wash your hands before you eat. They had a significantly lower rate of plague in their people.

Certain shots like Flu and Whooping Cough (the P in DTP) are not diseases where you can get immune for life. You can catch them both repeatedly. So it would make sense that if given several boosters you could build up a better resistance to it.

Lastly, if you were given the MMR that equals measles, mumps and rubella. So you could be immune to the mumps that way. The measles part either didn't take or wore off.

[sophi4ka]

Originally Posted by Jaimep

Lastly, if you were given the MMR that equals measles, mumps and rubella. So you could be immune to the mumps that way. The measles part either didn't take or wore off.

I was given only Measles vax. They didn't give Mumps and Rubella those days.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by sophi4ka

I was given only Measles vax. They didn't give Mumps and Rubella those days.

If the dates in your sig are birthdates- then they did give MMR. I was born in 75 and had the MMR as a toddler then the single measles extra dose around 12 or so when they decided that a bunch of the MMR measles didn't work.

-Angela

[tanyalynn]

4) According to Dr Sears' Vaccine Book, the claim that diseases were really disappearing before the vaxes is bogus. I think of Dr Sears as of a "smart guy", but this claim stands contrary to many other pretty smart people - like Neil Miller, Lauren Feder, Aviva Jill Romm, Mayer Eizenstein and probably more. So, again, who is right?

I think part of this is whether you look at disease rates or death rates. Before vaccination, my understanding is that most people really did get measles, for example, so there was a lot more circulating (even assuming that some is missed/misdiagnosed now), but the death rate had come down a whole lot since, say, 1900. For those who strongly value people not getting the disease (for the economic costs, say) this is important.

[suschi]

Just a couple comments,

you mentioned you were immune to mumps without ever having an obvious case, and no vaccine.

I think this may be more common than we are led to believe, with many diseases. A study done in Canada found that most children were immune to chickenpox by age 10 with or without obvious signs of infection.

WRT disease decline before vaccines, a real time example would be TB. Look at the TB rates in the US, no vaccine is given routinely for TB yet the rates have been on a steady decline, and no vaccine to give credit to, yet.

No doubt in the future when TB vax is given routinely, they will give the vaccine credit for the decline.