What kind of discipline policy would you like?

[Oriole]

I was looking through the comments on the "red, yellow, green" thread, and mind you, I do not use any chart systems within my own classroom, but I tend to be less judgmental of any behavior management system in general, and tend to pay more attention to the teacher's personality. At the same time, I do wonder what is the ideal behavior management system in the eyes of a parent?

So, imagine you are in charge!

You are in charge of an elementary (K-4?) classroom, you are the teacher. You have multiplication basics to cover, cursive handwriting, rocks and minerals, four different styles of writing, and a selection of stories to go through.

Please come up with a discipline system that will allow a teacher to engage 25 little active minds in learning, and to behave nicely and respectfully towards each other. Please remember that not all kids are like your child (some are very quiet, and pensive, others are active and loud, some will want to answer every question and talk all the time, while others will want to listen, and see what their classmates and the teacher have to say, some will enjoy attention and others will want to be left alone...)

What will you do if a child keeps interrupting you / or other students? What will you do if the child does it consistently? What if a child gets offended when you ask them to be patient?

What will you do with a student who can't sit still? What if one student shoves another? What if he/or she repeats it? What if you can tell that a child just can't help sitting still and didn't mean to hurt another, yet still did hurt another student? What if it happens over and over? What if a parent doesn't see it as a problem because "kids will be kids"? What if a parent of child that's been hurt does, and wants to see some consequences?

I truly enjoy hearing parents' perspective on the topic. There is no correct answer here, I am just looking for different points of view on classroom management.

[je309]

Very interesting question. This is our first year in school (my oldest is in Kindergarten) so I'm not quite sure about what my answer would be yet. My daughter is in a small private school and if a child misbehaves, a note is sent home to the parents detailing the incident and conferences are scheduled as needed if it continues to be an issue. As of yet, there doesn't seem to be any problems in her classroom. They only have 16 students and 2 teachers, so I would imagine that is is much easier for them to engage the students and keep the classroom under control (in comparison to a 25 student classroom with one teacher).

I am interested in hearing what other parents think about this subject...

[eepster]

Frankly, with 25 students and only 1 teacher it's almost impossible to appropriately handle discipline. If there was an assistant than either the teacher or the assitant could go out into the hallway with the student and discuss matters and come up with strategies to prevent future problems or logical consequences.

[avivaelona]

I was a classroom teacher in headstart preschool. Most discipline was handled through conflict resolution. A child who was out of control was removed from the group if necessary until they calmed down. A continuing behavior problem was addressed with the parent through a conference. I had some kids with serious family stresses, and behavior was an issue at times. It was much easier to handle behavior issues though when I saw the child as a member of a family and a community and addressed the behavior as if it had a reasonable cause, even when it was unacceptable. Because I taught headstart though, addressing social behaviors was my priority over teaching the curriculum, it was a nice luxury to have.

I was also a student teacher in public kindergarten, and a substitute teacher in 1-8, and an education researcher in grades k-3. I've seen a whole lot of classrooms in action. Very few had extensive behavior management "systems" in place. A few had incentive rewards in place but they were mostly of the "see a kid doing something good and let them put a marble in the class jar" kind of thing.

The best classroom I ever subbed in was a first grade that I have no clue at all what the teacher used for behavior management, I was there for three days and the class just ran itself, I was completely superfluous as a sub, except for being there to open the door in the am. I am still in awe of that teacher and wish I could go watch her for the first few weeks of a new year and see what she did in order to create the atmosphere that class had.

Because I've seen a variety of classrooms, I'm ok with a variety of behavior management techniques, even some that were not my favorites, but the few classes I've been in that just did not work are ones where behavior management systems were punitive in any way. The few times I went into a class and the teachers notes said to put a kids name down on the board if he or she was misbehaving I always groaned inside because those were the classes where it was hard to be a sub.

I've honestly never seen time out effectively used in a class situation, I'm sure it can be done, but I've never seen it actually work, though "time in" where a kid that was overwrought sat with a teacher or assistant or peer counselor did seem effective.

I've never seen a system like the red/green card thing used, but I dislike the sound of intensely. It sounds much too much like the old "name on the board" trick just gussied up and sold to parents.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by Oriole

You are in charge of an elementary (K-4?) classroom, you are the teacher. You have multiplication basics to cover, cursive handwriting, rocks and minerals, four different styles of writing, and a selection of stories to go through.

I am going to post this as a Montessori teacher, not as a traditional one.

What will you do if a child keeps interrupting you / or other students?

One of the most basic rules will have to be a system designed to get my attention. Assume I am working with a child on something and another child. The best system I have heard of came from my mom. She had everyone's name on a board and the child would take his name and set it in line by the teacher's observation chair. When she was done working with that child, she would go back to her chair and see whose name was next. Often times, the child had the problem solved.

If a child is interrupting, I've found a simple reminder of the rules is all that is needed. We do not interrupt anyone during their work time.

What will you do if the child does it consistently?

Talk to the child. Address the issue directly. Remind what the rules are. Remind myself to be excited that he is interested in learning.

What if a child gets offended when you ask them to be patient?

"I'm sorry you feel that way. When you place your name down and it's your turn, you can discuss the rule with me and if you want to, the classroom can discuss it as a group in our meeting time after work."

What will you do with a student who can't sit still?

Why should they have to sit still?

What if one student shoves another? What if he/or she repeats it?

Arguments are bound to happen in time with children. Out goal as teachers is to help the student work through that with words, so I would step in. If it's a repeated problem, everything I can think of related to the problem is documented - time it happened, where in the classroom it happened, what the child was working on at the time, was he working alone or with a friend? Did someone distract his work? Did he distract someone else's work? Why did he do it?

If I see a pattern, I might be able to change something in the environment. If he always argues over a student 1/2 hour before lunch and it is over a particular work, maybe I can just add two of those works so there is more chance that he has it. Maybe he is hungry and that is a work that helps calm him down. If he is hungry, how often do I have that he goes for snack? Maybe I need to remind him an hour before lunch to have a snack to avoid the problem.

Letting the child know that pushing, shoving, and hitting are not OK is very important. I will remove them and let them know they can go back to free choice when they feel ready. I will give them limited options of what to work on and bring the work to them at a table. When a child looses his freedom of movement in the classroom environment, the child realizes how important it is for him and usually changes very quickly.

If it is a constant problem and I have not been able to figure out the issue, I work with the parents even more closely (note: Parents will know about hitting, shoving, etc. that their child did and we'll both address it, but if it remains constant, more options must be considered).

What if you can tell that a child just can't help sitting still and didn't mean to hurt another, yet still did hurt another student?

Accidents happen. But if it's a case of them sitting still too much, I think that's the issue and the teacher and administrators needs to change that. If children are spending their days in the desks and not moving around the classroom, the environment itself has set itself up to be the biggest obstacle.

What if a parent doesn't see it as a problem because "kids will be kids"? What if a parent of child that's been hurt does, and wants to see some consequences?

You won't know what the consequences are for other children. If you do, get away from the school quickly because that is one of the most unprofessional things a teacher can do.

Why would that parent WANT to see consequences? That almost sounds sadistic and vengeful.

I truly enjoy hearing parents' perspective on the topic. There is no correct answer here, I am just looking for different points of view on classroom management.

Hope that helps!
Matt

[supervee]

Originally Posted by MattBronsil

Why would that parent WANT to see consequences? That almost sounds sadistic and vengeful.

The kind of parent who sees her child come home day after day with cuts and bruises, torn clothing, and resulting raging depression, and gets no promise that it will end. It is not vengeful, just a strong need for someone to say--if this is done to your child, we have a system in place to make sure it does not happen again.

Matt, surely you know that with Montessori, you've got lots of things going for you. The parents choose Montessori. They might pay extra for it, ensuring philosophical buy-in. They often make their homes very Montessori-friendly. They attend parent classes at school teaching them how to parent in this way. They read the books, the magazine. The school chooses the type of student they will admit. The school can suggest to a family that the school is not a good fit for their child, weeding out the nonconformers. Traditional public schools don't have these luxuries.

Oriole, I've got no alternative solutions. But then I'm fine with the stoplight system as long as it's used appropriately and minimally as described by some, and not habitually and in a controlling way as others described. The schools here provide a lot of help with underlying issues, and that's important, too.

[MattBronsil]

Originally Posted by supervee

The kind of parent who sees her child come home day after day with cuts and bruises, torn clothing, and resulting raging depression, and gets no promise that it will end. It is not vengeful, just a strong need for someone to say--if this is done to your child, we have a system in place to make sure it does not happen again.

That's different than the way I read it. Sorry if I'm reading it wrong. Thought she meant more along the lines of what is being done about that child...not the situation.

Matt, surely you know that with Montessori, you've got lots of things going for you. The parents choose Montessori. They might pay extra for it, ensuring philosophical buy-in. They often make their homes very Montessori-friendly. They attend parent classes at school teaching them how to parent in this way. They read the books, the magazine. The school chooses the type of student they will admit. The school can suggest to a family that the school is not a good fit for their child, weeding out the nonconformers. Traditional public schools don't have these luxuries.

The teachers still should have that level of professionalism, though.
And I wouldn't count on those assumptions too much at all. Neither public nor private Montessori schools have an easy job educating parents and we're not out to pull out children that don't fit with what "we want."

I do understand what you're saying. But just pointing out that both private and public Montessori schools have a long list of challenges similar to what we see here.

Matt

[supervee]

But remember that the child who is having behavioral problems does not exist in a vacuum. If it's a group situation, his/her actions are affecting other children in the class, whose development and learning are equally important. A discipline system is in place to achieve order in the group situation. Obviously if you are in a one-on-one learning situation, this kind of system is not necessary.

[CarrieMF]

Frankly, with 25 students and only 1 teacher it's almost impossible to appropriately handle discipline. If there was an assistant than either the teacher or the assitant could go out into the hallway with the student and discuss matters and come up with strategies to prevent future problems or logical consequences.

not necessarily. I've seen the teachers pull a child aside or out of the classroom for a quick chat without any other adult in the room with the kids. If the strategies to prevent future problems, etc are in place from the begining there is no need to take time to come up with them.

This is a mix of what I've used in the school for supervision & what I've seen the teachers do that IMO works.

You are in charge of an elementary (K-4?) classroom, you are the teacher. You have multiplication basics to cover, cursive handwriting, rocks and minerals, four different styles of writing, and a selection of stories to go through.

not all of this stuff happens in 1 day in the classes here & often there will be another teacher to come in & take over for some of the classes. The school here is k-6, but none of this stuff happens in K & how basic, general classroom management is handled in 5 & 6 is different than 3 & 4 which is different from 1 & 2. For 5 & 6, most of the teachers have the students come up with their own classroom rules & the students sign the poster with them & it is always up on the wall. Then the teacher can refer back to the poster if an issue comes up. 5 & 6 is generally given more leeway as they have more responsibility within the school too. About halfway through 4 they start giving them more leeway as they prepare for the responsibilities of 5 & 6. for 3 & 4, they love games. hangman works great for keeping them in the general space of their seats & intune to what the teacher is doing. 1 & 2 are hard as alot of them can't read or don't read well enough to do things like that, fun busy work when they're done their work before the next section starts helps.

Mostly keeping things fun, play transition music, allow the kids movement without it getting out of control. None of the teachers here require students to sit stiffly in their desks with heads straight. Even in the hallways as long as they're not screaming they allow them to walk out of line & talk.

Please come up with a discipline system that will allow a teacher to engage 25 little active minds in learning, and to behave nicely and respectfully towards each other. Please remember that not all kids are like your child (some are very quiet, and pensive, others are active and loud, some will want to answer every question and talk all the time, while others will want to listen, and see what their classmates and the teacher have to say, some will enjoy attention and others will want to be left alone...)

the paragraph I wrote above helps with alot of this. The school here follows 4 keys of learning - responsibility, respect, saftey & honesty. The kids are reminded of these daily. in the younger grades(1 & 2) they do coursework on reinforcing these behaviours. On the playground, if an incident comes up staff goes back to these keys & the students come up with solutions using these keys on how to solve them. Respect(for each other & for yourself) & safety are the 2 biggest ones that are emphasized the most. During class time if the teacher is asking the kids to answer questions if they know they raise their hands, they give plenty of time for more kids to come up with the answer. The first kid to raise their hand is NOT the one who is asked. The teachers know which ones know all the answers & will ask other kids to give an answer.

What will you do if a child keeps interrupting you / or other students? What will you do if the child does it consistently? What if a child gets offended when you ask them to be patient?

reminders that we don't interrupt when someone is talking, if you have something to say you need to raise your hand. If the child does it after being reminded the teacher will quietly talk to the child once the kids are engaged in work. If need be, they take the child out of the room for the talk. If the child gets out of hand the child is taken to the principal's office so the P can discuss with the child why it's important to not interrupt. During these talks the 4 keys are used. If the child still won't stop, they do their work in the principal's office. There were 2 kids out of 250 last year who were repeatedly in there. I'm not sure why a child would get offended over being asked to be patient.

What will you do with a student who can't sit still?

The kids are not required to sit still. During work time they sit in their desks, but don't have to be still & don't have to be sitting perfectly either. Most of the teachers will have the kids do some movement between sitting work. During lunch supervision I don't require kids to sit still, they've been inside for just over an hour & want to go outside. We have to keep them in for 25minutes, with the goal of 30 minutes they're all outside. most days it's hard as they want & NEED to go out, but we can't. As long as they aren't bugging the other students, they can stand, get a drink, go to the bathroom, use the micro, get books, etc.

What if one student shoves another? What if he/or she repeats it?

Take the child aside & remind them of the respect key, then ask the student what they think they should to do make it better. The kids come up with really good ideas on how to "fix" the situation. If they repeat it more than once they go to the office & the principal has them fill out a Behaviour Plan. In the Behaviour plan they fill out 3 sections - the incident, why what they did was wrong & how they plan on correcting it now & in the future. Then the Principal signs it, kid goes back to class & follows through.

What if you can tell that a child just can't help sitting still and didn't mean to hurt another, yet still did hurt another student? What if it happens over and over?

If the first incident was an accident we'd quickly discuss respect & safey & responsibility. 2nd + incident(in the same day) would be in the principal's office. Few cases would a 2nd+ incident the same day be an accident still unless they had a medical condition

What if a parent doesn't see it as a problem because "kids will be kids"? What if a parent of child that's been hurt does, and wants to see some consequences?

After 2 behaviour plans, the parents are brought in for a discussion. If the parent did not see it as a problem, the principal would discuss bullying & the signs of a bully. If it was a medical thing the parents & principal & teacher would hopefully work together to come up with a solution. If the situation was bad enough & the parents refused to help the child's behaviour then the child would be removed from the school. IE, in april or so one of our Autistic children was asked to not come back to the school(it is public). His parents took him off of his meds stating that they were not helping him. Once the meds left his system his behaviour got worse & to a point he was a danger to the other students & staff. His parents refused to put him back on the meds to so he was not allowed back at the school. As an example of how this child could get my dd was at their house for a birthday party. IT was a sleepover, the next morning the girls were going out of the house to play & as my dd was walking out he ran over & bit her on the arm. It was hard enough that it went through her faux suede jacket, left a huge bruise with a full bitemark & just about broke the skin. That was when he WAS on his meds. For the rest of that question I"d need specific examples.

[supervee]

Originally Posted by CarrieMF

hangman works great for keeping them in the general space of their seats & intune to what the teacher is doing.

I am sure (hope?) you don't mean this, but I am laughing at the image of a teacher drawing a hangman on the board... Little Johnny talked, let's draw the head. Little Mary got out of her seat, let's draw the body.... and so on until the class is hung!