The Power of Probiotics - Page 17

[moneca]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to give BM yogurt a try and let you know how it comes along.

Moneca

[RiceMomma]

Thanks, amnesiac.

[Rainbow]

Question: Dh would like to try a probiotic. Unfortunately he gets sick when he eats dairy. He doesn't mind some soy in his diet, but we try to avoid eating to much of it... and we already use it in cereals and cooking. Is there any rice based probiotic that is worth the time? I saw the Amasake suggestion towards the beginning of this huge thread, but can't find anything on exactly what ti is or how to make it.

I don't know the depth of his dairy sensativity though. He gets digestive (intestinal) upset from milk, ice cream, cheese and the like. Is there a good chance he would be able to stomach homemade yogurt even if he can't stomach these other dairy sources?

How much should a grown man (6'4) eat a day to start out?

What is the best yogurt maker for the dollar?

[amnesiac]

My understanding is that amazake can have some lactobacilli in it but it's primarily rice fermented by Aspergillus oryzae. I have no idea what, if any, health effects A oryzae might have but it wierds me out because I think it's one of those fungi that can produce aflatoxin. I think I'm just wierd about fungi period though. If you want to try & make some, GEM Cultures has the starter you can order online.

My dh is bothered by dairy too, but not all dairy. For him, it's primarily the lactose (which the probiotic bacteria munch up). If he were to just drink a glass of milk he has bad belly problems afterwards, but yogurt he's ok with. So it's possible your dh might tolerate a homemade yogurt. Or you could just use the powdered stuff.

[Illuviel]

Delurking after reading through a wealth of material. Hi, all.

Originally Posted by weegift333

Thanks -- our oven is very tricky -- an electric, and the lowest possible setting still brings the temp up to 150 according to an oven thermometer we bought; the only way we can do 110 is by keeping the oven door ajar (which is horrible waste of energy)

Weegift,
There may be a way to adjust your oven' s temperature range.

I know that on the back of the temperature control knob of my electric oven there's an adjustable bit -- I can move the lowest temperature setting ten degrees per notch on the gauge, and have enough 'room' that I can lower the temp to 110F.

[goodpapa]

Hi Golden,

...I've re-read your story a number of times and I have one more question:
What were your son's symptoms that led to the "suspected kidney/ureter obstruction." It sounds like something happened and the yeast suddenly (after 2 months) got the upper hand.

I think his "foul smelling poops" are from the yeast die-off in his system, which is definitely good.

My son had tons of probiotic powder starting day 3, my feeling was that the dangers of his having had antibiotics during his birth (the C section) far outweighed the "danger" of getting too much probiotic powder. I cannot imagine that there could be too much of the good bacteria. What isn't needed, ie, has no place to go (they essentially form their on communities at various sites in the intestine) would simply move on.


The trick here, from what I've read, is YOUR intestinal condition right now. If you start to clean out the yeast too vigorously by getting alot of the good flora into your system, the by-products of the yeast die-off will end up in your bloodstream (yeast and leaky gut go together to some degree) and into your breastmilk. Your son is detoxing himself right now, and is already dealing with his own elimination.

One thing you could do that would keep your system somewhat under control is a probiotic yogurt douche. My wife used them all through her pregnancy and even now requests them when she's not feeling quite right.

My son never had trouble taking the powder, maybe try mixing drops of BM into a cup with the powder to make a paste not the other way around.

RiceMomma--- I use just probiotic powder for making my yogurt, no other starter. Did your yogurt maker come with a thermometer to tell you exactly when the heated milk has coolded to the right temp? With the yogurt making unit, I think the heat they supply is to KEEP the milk at the right temp, not in any way get it there. My hunch is that the yogurt was too cool.

Mountianmon-- my Jarro and my Ethical Nutrients do not have dairy, soy or wheat. And I use nothing but the powders for the two different yogurts. The consitency is perfect without any yogurt starter bacteria (st.therm or l.bulcaricus--both of which are not native to the human intestine). I consider the real-estate in my jars to be prime, so I'm only giving room to the bacteria that could actually "stick" around.

Rainbow--- my wife was lactose intolerant and our first step was to get lactase gelcaps (the enzyme necessary for lactose digestion) for her milk consumption. Once she got "cultured" the lactase was no longer necessary.


Gotta go make the yogurt.



Good luck everyone (especially you Amanda--

stay close to home, maybe think about a small TV set for emergencies)



Ray

[Golden]

My son has hydronephrosis and a mega ureter(fluid rentention in the kidney and distended ureter). This was detected prenatally by many ultrasounds, has had many ultrasounds since, a VCUG test and has a Mag3 Renal scan in a few weeks. He has had NO visible symptoms, no UTIs, no fevers, etc. Hopefully this is how it will play out with him, as it can with some children. However, until the extent of the effects of the megaureter on his kidney function is known, he is on the abx at least for another 3 weeks. Longer obviously if something comes from this test.

I will try mixing a few drops to make a paste instead of trying to dissolve it.

As for me, I'm frustrated to say the least. The yeast infection is back today in full force despite me taking probiotics twice a day, and GSE by mouth once a day, vingear douches (which worked until I stopped last week), and a round of monitstat3 that I just finished yesterday.

I just made my first batch of yogurt yesterday. So how do I douche with it? How much, how often? Won't the sugar in the milk/yogurt feed the yeast? Wouldn't it be better to douche with the jarro powder? If so, how much of that?
This is really frustrating. The big guns of diflucan are next....I don't want to wipe EVERYTHING out though.

I will up the probiotic frequency in babe too.

So how much probiotics should I be taking, keeping in mind that excessive yeast dieoff will end up in my bloodstream/breastmilk. I have been taking about 6 billion a day total over two doses.

Thanks for your help!
Golden

[Rainbow]

Originally Posted by amnesiac

My understanding is that amazake can have some lactobacilli in it but it's primarily rice fermented by Aspergillus oryzae. I have no idea what, if any, health effects A oryzae might have but it wierds me out because I think it's one of those fungi that can produce aflatoxin. I think I'm just wierd about fungi period though. If you want to try & make some, GEM Cultures has the starter you can order online.

My dh is bothered by dairy too, but not all dairy. For him, it's primarily the lactose (which the probiotic bacteria munch up). If he were to just drink a glass of milk he has bad belly problems afterwards, but yogurt he's ok with. So it's possible your dh might tolerate a homemade yogurt. Or you could just use the powdered stuff.

Rainbow--- my wife was lactose intolerant and our first step was to get lactase gelcaps (the enzyme necessary for lactose digestion) for her milk consumption. Once she got "cultured" the lactase was no longer necessary.

Thanks! We are going to to try it. The lactose pills don't help him- so I don't know if it is a lactose thing or not. However, we figure we'll make a batch and see how it goes. If he gets sick we'll just try the plain powder. If he's ok than we know he can handle it.

I went to the store today and bought everything... since we don't eat dairy we didn't have any of the products around. Somehow thought I forgot the dry milk Not excited about going back...

[JaneS]

Just a quick note today:

Psyllium is *excellent* for absorbing toxins in the digestive tract... and keep everything moving along. It's perfect for BF'ing moms who want to detox but not leech anything into their bloodstream.

3-5 grams at night is the recommended dosage with a lot of water, I would say at least 16 oz., at room temperature. I have taken the capsules and find them much easier than trying to mix the powder and then gagging on it.

[JaneS]

Golden:

GSE is best taken at before bed/two hours after eating on an empty stomach to kill the yeast in a relatively empty digestive tract.

Also, you might want to research Candex, which is supposed to not cause die off symptoms. There have been some moms here who have used it:

http://www.pureessencelabs.com/candex.html

I think www.iherb.com is the cheapest.

I have more to add but I'm pressed for time... DS is napping and I gotta go shave my legs so I don't look too scary in at water aerobics tonight :LOL

[goodpapa]

Hang in there Golden,

OK you've got the yogurt and it's just Jarro?

Did the monistat come with the "plunger" that gets the tube screwed to it?

If not get one of those from the drugstore, cut the bottom off of the tube so you can load it with yogurt and a paper clip (the big ones that look like a clamp). Load the tube right before bed, lie back with your legs up (crooked) and plunge that yogurt right in there. Let it go to work while you sleep.

The bacteria have digested the lactose--- there won't be any sugar left in there.

To boost the douche, I recently started adding probiotic powder to the probiotic yogurt and it seems to make a difference for my wife. It makes the yogurt pastier and probably allows the good bacteria to "stick" better.

Start eating the yogurt instead of the probiotic powder. I can't prove it, but I think it's more effective. Also, I don't know what your sleep schedule is like, but if you're up between midnight and 6 (or first thing when you wake) try to eat the yogurt with a banana (two of each if you can) BEFORE your digestive system has a chance to wake up (before the stomach acids kick in.) The bacteria need to make it past the stomach acids to be able to set up shop in the intestines.

Also, start paying attention to the darkness (yellow) of your urine. When you are able to get an early morning yogurt and banana, you should notice (all fluid intake remaining constant) an intensifying of the yellow of your pee. This is the bacteria synthesizing B vitamins for your body. This will be enhanced if you can then have a oligosaccharide meal (black beans and eggs are my favorite) which gets some of those indigestible sugars (to us humans) down into your gut where the bacteria will then feed on them.

I'm not familiar with your son's specific issues, but I'll be researching.

I'm sure all of this sounds like alot of details with all of the details you already have to deal with with your son, but just a step at a time will do the trick.

I've been at these details for 4 years now and I'm still experimenting and learning.

Bottom line-- I wouldn't have a son if it weren't for what I've learned.



Everybody get cultured!



Ray

[moneca]

O.K. I remember reading pages ago on this thread that those with dairy allergies could eat yoghurt because the lactose was already digested. I wasn't sure where that came from since organic yoghurt was the first thing my dd :Puke @ 7 1/2 months . Now I'm reading /Breaking the Vicious Cycle/ and Gottschall mentions that youghurt is tolerated when cultured for 24 hours. Can anyone confirm this? My dd and I are on an elimination diet and she hasn't vomited in seven days (miracle)- hate to see her get sick again. I'd rather be sure before trying cow's milk for yogurt. Also, would culturing for 24 hours increse the number of bacteria as opposed to culturing for a shorter time
One more question on yeast. DD has been on Jarrow Baby probiotics (3 x per day) and oregon grape root (to kill the yeast) extract for two weeks. After 2 days her poop started smelling sweet like yogurt and still does. This morning her yeast rash was only in one armpit. Tonight the yeast rash is back in both arms, under her chin, belly button, behind both ears, and in her diaper area. This is much worse than it has ever been. We've both been faithfully sticking to the elimination diet and we're both still taking fish oil. She has never had refined sugar. Any ideas

[goodpapa]

New method for culturing...

....I did a "wet" run the other day (using water to see if temp held) and it looks like it's going to work. We're eating so much yogurt, I'm getting tired of all the little glass jars.

I'm using a heat-pad on the first setting (mine has three).

I bought a 1.5 liter jar (I'm going back for the 2 liter) for a buck at Dollar General. Wrapped the heat pad around it and held it in place with a rubber band chain (where you link them together) and a paper clip.

We had some Christmas wrapping paper that is mylar foil based (to bad they don't wrap houses with it--we could save alot on our heating bills). One side is decorated, but the other is not-- I put the clear side facing the jar. This foil will reflect the radiant heat (basically the jar becomes a thermal mass) so I did some top to bottom to top coverage both front to back and side to side. A complete seal is not necessary.

I put a Tushies diaper bag over the top to hold it all together and tested the temp after three hours. It was right where it started.

Now, one important thing was that I when I heated the milk, I let it drop to slightly above the recommended spot on the thermometer to account for heating up the jar. When I use the milk I'll do the same and put the starter into a 3/4 filled jar so that the temp has come down a bit and then add the rest of the milk.

It was easier to do it than it was to describe it.

If there are any SNAFUs I'll report back.


Get Cultured!


Ray

[Pilgrim]

Golden - Many years ago I suffered from a yeast infection that WOULD NOT go away. I made so many trips to the OB. I was not into natural healing and nutrition at the time. Anyway,after many conventional medications, my OB suggested that I try taking garlic. I began to take it every day, and it helped enormously! If I missed a day or two, my symptoms would re-appear. I also did a diluted vinegar rinse (external only) daily in the shower. But I really think the garlic was what did the trick for me. (I'm sure I was on acidophillus too - but you're already doing that.) HTH!

[Golden]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I've been using the yogurt (with probiotics mixed in), douche at night and vinegar douche in the morning, probiotics twice a day (Maybe 6-7billion a day?), fish oil (2000mg), and eating about two cups of yogurt a day. Totally loving my yogurt maker, although I forgot about it while I was heating it up and totally burnt it. Yuck. Then when I made the second batch, I realized while it was cooling that I had no yogurt to start it with! Could I have just used the probiotic powder? If so, how much?

A funny story: Goodpapa! The first night I did the yogurt douche, dh looks at the contraption (Old monistat tube with the end cut off, filled with yogurt, and folded close with a binder clip, attached to the plunger....) and asks where I learned about this. Well Goodpapa, of course! Goodpapa? He smiles, laughes, and says something like, only on MDC will you find a knowledgeable guy to tell you how to douche with yogurt.

So far so good. If this doesn't work, I may try garlic, by mouth and/or vaginally.

My ds thrush in his mouth is gone and the diaper rash is gone. He has been getting probiotics and GSE washing with each diaper change.


Another question:
The organic milk I bought (Organic Cow?) had a crazy far away expiration date. I think it was Feb 28th. Then I noticed it said it was ultra pastuerized. What effect does that have? Is all organic milk ultra? Does this mean that I don't need to heat the milk to 180?

Thanks!
Golden

[goodpapa]

Thanks for the chuckle, Golden...

..actually disseminating on the vagina is definitely a move up for me.

Contrary to popular opinion, there's no glory in the guts :LOL


There is as well no excuse for physicians not having a clue about what to do after an antibiotic/anti-yeast wipeout. The evidence is everywhere when you think about it:

http://www.medscape.com/content/2004...70468_ref.html


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...m_uid=14581876

And of course this from the first page of the thread:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


What did you use initially to culture your first yogurt? I actually recommend using probiotic powder and NOT storebought conventional. Too many transient bacteria in the conventional.

About 6 gelcaps per 6 0z container will do it. When I'm "starting up" (my son often grabs my last jar out of the fridge) I make two 6 oz, one to eat and one to use to culture a full 8 x 6oz setup.

And now (drumroll please)

I'm crazy about my heatpad culturing system. I did it a second time and it works like a charm. There's double function as well for my over 40 muscles. Even with the stomach crunches my back just ain't what it used to be (granted I don't cut it any slack--- my roadside stone gathering for backyard projects is a hell of a workout)

Read Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions on the problem of ultrapasteurized. No other solution really than to find raw milk.

Why heat to 180? Because pasteurization destoys milks natural antiyeast compounds and the beneficial bacteria that would otherwise keep the bad stuff in check. Raw milk left to culture is how they make farmer's cheese-- from the ambient bacteria from the cow. Pasteurized milk left out just rots.


Moneca-- the skin is an organ of many things, one of which is elimination of unwanted anything. I'm amazed at how quickly the coffee scent of my morning latte (just one) shows up on my skin. That tells me something, but I'll ignore it for now.

Very likely your daughter's rash (at this point) is an elimination function.

What happened to the breastmilk yogurt? Last I remember that was going to be your tactic?

As far as culturing time, I don't see a need for 24 hours. If 3-4 doesn't get all of the lactose turned into lactic acid (thus lactobacillus) any left over would be quickly consumed once the bacteria reactivate in the body.

The issue with dairy allergies and yogurt is the problem of casein (used in making the Tetanus portion of Dtap) which is a protein molecule and apparently a large and problematic one. From what I've read its 3 dimensional character is broken down into two by the bacteria and SUPPOSEDLY that makes it less invasive to the human system, but I'm VERY wary.

The problem of leaky gut is that the inflamed intestinal epithelial cells that are normally rectangular become round, thus creating tiny holes that allow the intestinal contents to leak into the bloodsteam. 2 or 3 dimensional, I would be very careful with the casein content.

Even breastmilk has casein:

http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/1875.html

so that the best option for a dairy allergic child would be a cultured breastmilk where the casein would be partially digested.

Thanks for bringing this up. I wasn't aware that breastmilk had casein in it. Although I still wouldn't recommend not nursing-- the other aspects are simply too important.


Good luck folks, keep me posted



Ray

PS Moneca, keep that baby poop smellin' sweet!

[moneca]

Ray,
Thanks for the additional info.

[goodpapa]

Actually Moneca...

..one thing that I can't emphasize enough.

This is probably as potent a life-giving force as those little bacteria.

The Sun-- every bit as essential to our bodies as it is to our psyches.

The Bottom Line (from the link below):

"Using food as one's primary source of D is difficult to impossible."


I'm sure I've posted this link somewhere on this thread but here's one more time for supreme emphasis:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut..._vitaminD.html

As I begin to fully understand the severely compromised state of our digestive systems-- even among those of us that have some awareness, the necessity of sun exposure on our skin gets more and more mandatory. I simply don't think that even the best foods for Vit. D have enough of it in them. As far as the artificial D that is used for supplementation-- forget about it. If I remember correctly it actually interferes with the dietary absorption of the best natural D.

The rest of this site would be great to "digest" as well.



Procreate, Lactate, Disseminate!



Ray

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by goodpapa

The problem of leaky gut is that the inflamed intestinal epithelial cells that are normally rectangular become round, thus creating tiny holes that allow the intestinal contents to leak into the bloodsteam. 2 or 3 dimensional, I would be very careful with the casein content.

Even breastmilk has casein:

http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/1875.html

so that the best option for a dairy allergic child would be a cultured breastmilk where the casein would be partially digested.

Thanks for bringing this up. I wasn't aware that breastmilk had casein in it. Although I still wouldn't recommend not nursing-- the other aspects are simply too important.

I would like to add to this... in our experience I think the best option is breastfeeding while following a dairy free diet. Or possibly only cultured dairy is allowed.

I believe that leaky gut in the mother passes more of the whole milk proteins onto the babe. Generally, most of the protein in BM is easily digested whey and the casein content is quite low.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/2/t021600.asp
http://classes.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci308/HumanLact.html

Re: Raw Milk
Mercola.com has a source for frozen raw milk and other dairy products shipped from Calif. I just don't have the time to travel to locations in my state (the closest one is not organic or all grass fed) so I'm going to order some by mail. I'll let everyone know what I think.

[JaneS]

OT: to Goodpapa re: Vitamin D

I remember your previous posts on this issue. Does your DW have her blood levels tested? I was wondering if you could recommend a lab if so. Does she use any supplements at all or only the sun? Is there any physiological signs of adequate D?

You are lucky you live a bit closer to the equator. We currently have 2 feet of snow outside and it's blowing around in little mini tornados. I'm not going out there in my bikini today

The cod liver oil we use is Nordic Naturals which has a low amount of D, so sometimes I take a supplement derived from fish oil (Solaray). I give this to DS in the winter as well. Although I'm increasing feeling like I'm doing this blind, not really knowing if we need more or not.