Autism and no vaccinations - Page 3

[savithny]

Originally Posted by mamadelbosque

To say that autism/allergies/etc is entirely genetic is nuts - obviously they aren't because they basicly didn't exist 50, let alone 100 years ago. You know? If they did, then we'd have millions of autistic old people in this world, and I just don't see them.

Three of my great-grandmothers had severe seasonal allergies, and one had asthma. All were born between 1880 and 1890. And one of my great-grandfathers had a brother that wound up in "St. Elizabeth's" all his life with symptoms that sure sound like autism. For that matter, my grandmother had two uncles who probably had aspergers, given the stories we hear about them.

There were, in fact, plenty of autistic kids in "the Good Old Days." They just tended to be ignored, abused, and/or warehoused in institutions.

[VijayOwens]

1) I have one dd with autism and one without. The younger one is autistic, never vaxed, no ultrasounds. The older dd had at least 3 maybe 4 US, and was fully vaxed up until 18 months.

2) Some of us don't really feel like autism is something terrible. Just to keep that in mind when discussing causes/prevention.

3) I think sometimes mercury or other toxicities and can cause brain damage and seizure disorders (like what Jenny McCarthy's son had) and that there are metabolic disorders can mimic autism but are not necessarily the same as a child from a family where ASD and Aspie tendencies are part of a genetic pattern... which, as it turns out is the case in my family. But we are only figuring that out with 20/20 hindsight. So a GFCF diet can seem to "cure" their autism, or chelation therapy or what have you. Because they weren't really autistic to begin with. My tin hat theory of the day. \

Anyway. My two cents for what it's worth. I am still on the fence about a third child but it wouldn't matter worth a moth's fart if the child was autistic or not, so it's not like "oh no it runs in the family, I had better adopt."

If anything, parenting my ASD child (and granted, my older dd is probably mild asperger's but is undiagnosed and no plans to have her evaluated) has helped me get in touch with and embrace my own Aspie tendencies and is helping with my own personal growth. I'm sure I'll post more about that journey at some point in a more suitable thread.

-Vijay

[Proverbs31]

Originally Posted by Promethean

As the Danish study made it clear, the rate of autism between the vaccinated and non-vaccinated was LOWER among the vaccinated.

A critique of the Danish study:

http://www.jpands.org/vol9no3/goldman.pdf

[Proverbs31]

Originally Posted by VijayOwens

3) I think sometimes mercury or other toxicities and can cause brain damage and seizure disorders (like what Jenny McCarthy's son had) and that there are metabolic disorders can mimic autism but are not necessarily the same as a child from a family where ASD and Aspie tendencies are part of a genetic pattern... which, as it turns out is the case in my family. But we are only figuring that out with 20/20 hindsight. So a GFCF diet can seem to "cure" their autism, or chelation therapy or what have you. Because they weren't really autistic to begin with. My tin hat theory of the day.

I agree with this... but it presents an interesting dilema: my ds' offical diagnosis is autism, but I do believe it is actually brain damage caused by a severe vaccine reaction. So we're somewhere in limbo because without the vaccine-damage he wouldn't have gotten an autism diagnosis... I think about how many other children are in the same boat; while the CDC is denying a vaccine-autism link, where does that leave the children like my son? Their diagnosis is contributing the rising autism rate, so even if vaccines aren't a cause of autism, they certainly can be a cause of the rising rate of autism (does that make sense?)

[VijayOwens]

Well it makes perfect sense to me. If a child has a need for services and the only way to get those services is to accept an autism diagnosis (even if you suspect it may be something else) then I would accept the diagnosis and just keep mum as far as the insurance company goes. But more and more as time goes on I think people will start to see that there are several different things going on here, not just a rise in autism. There is (according to ShaggyDaddy, and I generally agree with most of what he says) in fact a rise in autism, and I believe that.

I believe that people with spectrum disorders are drawn (whether they are aware of it or not) to others on the spectrum. Or people with common quirks in their families bond over the similarities and can relate to having gone through similar things at school and at home without necessarily realizing that it's because they are both Aspies or what have you.

So in my case some mild quirks on my side of the family married to the mild quirks on the other side (and one aunt who was institutionalized her whole life for "retardation" that may very well have been severe autism) added up to moderate autism in my younger daughter, and possible mild Asperger's in my older dd.

There is also a more sophisticated system in place now for recognizing and diagnosing autism than there used to be. I also feel that the vaccine program has contributed to autism mimics and who knows what has contributed to the rise in metabolic disorders. Getting out my tinfoil hat again I imagine it could be related to any number of things, GMOs, pesticides, irradiated foods, and so on. I really don't know or even have a strong theory on that. But I feel it contributes to the overall "autism spike."

Also, AP and other respectful gentle parenting styles tend to bring out the quirks in our children because they are allowed to be themselves. ABA and other behavioral approaches are about controlling behaviors: encouraging behaviors that are wanted and discouraging unwanted ones.

So in a family where it is allowed to stim, to rock, to flap, to stay up late, to eat only a few foods, to watch TV, to be a late talker without interventions, etc. the symptoms may be more obvious than in a family where an 18 month old is in speech therapy, a stim is punished, a mandatory bedtime is enforced, etc. So the spectrum-y behaviors are being manipulated and controlled right out of the gate without the parent even knowing that the child is on the spectrum. They are just "bad sleepers" and are left to CIO. Or "picky eaters" and are made to eat what's on their plate or go hungry, and so on.

Anyway, it's complicated. And it's going to take a while to unravel. But in the meantime I just feel like until there is PROOF that vaccines are safe (and no I don't feel that the "see your daughter is autistic and she was never vaccinated so vaccines must be safe" argument holds water) I am not going to vaccinate any of my children for anything.

Whew!

-Vijay

[Proverbs31]

^^That makes so much sense! I feel like I'm speaking Greek when (in real life) I try to explain my position on the vaccine-autism link, since it seems like everyone asks if we think vaccines "caused" autism.

Anyway...that's interesting about ABA; my son just started a center-based program this week and I am having some mixed feelings about it. On that note, I'm going to broach the subject on the Special Needs board, becuase I would love feedback on that!

[needhelpplease]

Yes, I do know a boy with autism who didn't get the MMR though I'm not sure if he got other vaccinations or not.

[dex_millie]

Originally Posted by savithny

Three of my great-grandmothers had severe seasonal allergies, and one had asthma. All were born between 1880 and 1890. And one of my great-grandfathers had a brother that wound up in "St. Elizabeth's" all his life with symptoms that sure sound like autism. For that matter, my grandmother had two uncles who probably had aspergers, given the stories we hear about them.

There were, in fact, plenty of autistic kids in "the Good Old Days." They just tended to be ignored, abused, and/or warehoused in institutions.

I think the point is that there are other factors that can cause those problems than just genetic. I don't see what is so wrong with admitting that. Everybody family is different some get it from genetics where some might not. I actually knew no one while growing up with Autism, Aspergers, Alsymers(sp?), ect.... DH family also doesn't have any genetic stuff that we know of, but when he and his mother & brother came to the states in about 5 or so years DH development allegeries (he in his 20's, and a friend of theirs from Jamiaca also in her 40's) they never had problems with allergies before.

eta: to correct his mom doesn't have allergies, I thought she did, so it is dh alone.

I also think some things are over diagnos(sp?). I have 2 aunts in the school system and they have seen children being wrongly diagnos because they was a little 'difficult'.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by dex_millie

I think the point is that there are other factors that can cause those problems than just genetic. I don't see what is so wrong with admitting that. Everybody family is different some get it from genetics where some might not. I actually knew no one while growing up with Autism, Aspergers, Alsymers(sp?), ect.... DH family also doesn't have any genetic stuff that we know of, but when he and his mother & brother came to the states in about 5 or so years DH development allegeries (he in his 20's, and a friend of theirs from Jamiaca also in her 40's) they never had problems with allergies before.

eta: to correct his mom doesn't have allergies, I thought she did, so it is dh alone.

I also think some things are over diagnos(sp?). I have 2 aunts in the school system and they have seen children being wrongly diagnos because they was a little 'difficult'.

No, the point is that you clearly claimed that allergies and autism "basically didn't exist" 100 or even 50 years ago, when in fact, they always have existed. They may be on the rise, and if they are, they may be on the rise for a variety of reasons (in the case of allergies, ironically, some people think it is because our kids are *too* healthy. Kids with a "natural" load of intestinal parasites are much less likely to develop allergies).

But is disingenous to claim that these things did not exist prior to "modern life," and I think it plays into the "if you do it all right, these things won't happen" mentality that leaves parents of children with asthma, or autism, saying "But I did all the things on the checklist!" And worse, that mentality leads to other people whispering about that mother "She must have done something wrong -- she must have slipped up and failed the Natural Living/Attachment Parenting checklist."

[amnesiac]

Lets please stay focused on the vaccine aspect of this discussion so that it can remain open.