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Ok, flex your anti-vax muscle at me....please.

post #1 of 85
9/3/08 at 6:26pm
Thread Starter 
Hi I'm new around these parts. I need some help.

With my first son, I vax'd; I circ'd; I did many things wrong. Since joining MDC, I've learned so much. Wanna talk circ? I'll run up one side of you and down the other with information. You likely won't circ when I'm done with you.

But now it's come time for DS2's routine vaccinations. He's two months old. I don't know much about vaccinations; but I'm open to learning. I'm in Canada (wherever that makes a difference in information). From what I've read so far, I'm thinking I'll end up falling into the selective/delayed vax category.

So if you're very knowledgeable in the vaccines department, PLEASE give me what you've got. Tell me why (you think) I should not vaccinate. Give me your arguments on specific vaccines (the only one I know for sure he won't be getting is the 'chicken pox' vaccine - my doctor agrees with me so far). Please don't use short forms; as I'm not generally familiar with them and only know a few. Oh, and PLEASE come subscribe and come back from time to time; as I will most likely have questions. Thank you.

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post #2 of 85
9/4/08 at 12:36pm
My favorite place to read (besides old threads, I mean, which are great to search) is here:

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/

They've got articles on specific vaccines and lots of cool links, like the CDC pink books (surprisingly helpful in the decision not to vaccinate). I don't consider myself well-read enough to answer eighty zillion questions though.
post #3 of 85
9/4/08 at 1:27pm
Here's two links of people who I think have some good information on the topic - Dr. Mendelsohn and Hillary Butler. Dr. Mendelsohn gives his reasoning for being an anti-vax ped.
http://www.*********/v/mendelsohn.html
http://www.*********/vaccines/butler3.html

Mercola's website also has some good articles:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/Ar...egory=Vaccines

This article is for the over 50 but it does discuss children briefly. It is a great explanation of how vaxes affect the brain without getting too scrientific.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...our-brain.aspx

Personally I researched the diseases... the symptoms, how serious they are, and the numbers of poeple who caught it in the US (hopefully someone will have a link to the CDC Pink Book). The couple of diseases I thought were serious were Polio (which hasn't occured naturally in decades) and ditheria (which is somewhere between 0-5 cases for 30 years now). Even tetanus is only something like 45 people per year and it's mostly senior citizens; not children.

Then I weighed how rare the serious diseases are and how silly it is to vax for more harmless disearses (like chikenpox, and rubella). In the end I did not see the risk was worth the benefits for my child.

Now I will probably check titers as a preteen/teen and see if my LO has natural immunity to some of the things which would be more detrimental to have as an adult like Rubella (I have a dd) and checkenpox and we'll make the decision together.
post #4 of 85
9/5/08 at 12:39am
Why I haven't vaxed my DS:
I'm not comfortable with vaccine ingredients
I'm not comfortable with vaccine safety testing
I think the schedule is too much too soon
I think some vaxes are unnecessary (and the more I read, I think all of them may be unnecessary)
I have an extensive family history of autoimmune disease
I think vaccines are related (but not sole cause) of rising autism rates
the corruption in the system leads me not to trust FDA/CDC/whoever (people who make money off vaccines also approve them, etc etc.)

I'm still reading, still studying. May start at 2 years old, may never start. Leaning towards never.
post #5 of 85
9/5/08 at 1:18am
The best starting place I think is to research EACH disease and EACH vaccine.

The default is to NOT vaccinate while you research.

When I researched, I found no vaccines I wanted to give my kids at this point. The risks outweigh the benefits.

-Angela
post #6 of 85
9/5/08 at 1:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
...The default is to NOT vaccinate while you research...

I was reading another thread when I came across this statement in your response. At first it made perfect sense to me; but the more I think about it, the more I ask "but what if the baby gets something deadly or paralyzing before I have a chance to learn about the disease and vaccine?"; and that scares me too. I'm saying this out loud and honestly, because I know I'm not the only one following this thread, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm scared of both vaccinating and not vaccinating. I need more information, links, books, websites, whatever you've got. Talk to me!
post #7 of 85
9/5/08 at 1:53am
My personal page with a lot of information and movies
www.myspace.com/parentsagainstvax

www.vaclib.org

www.nvic.org That one tells you about the vaccine and the disease. It's neither pro or against vaccines. Just gives you the facts.

I don't vaccinate because of
The toxic ingredients
I believe vaccines gave me arthritis
I will not be putting aborted fetal tissue into my children
I will not be putting monkey kidney tissue or other animal parts in my children
Dr. Sherri Tenpenny told me it was better not to.
post #8 of 85
9/5/08 at 1:53am
I really loved the book "Take Charge of Your Child's Health" by George Wootan. I came across it by accident in the library, and it doesn't seem to be very well-known, but I have no idea why. He refers to Robert Mendelsohn as being very influential to him. (You HAVE to read "How to Raise a Healthy Child...In Spite of Your Doctor" - NOW. Very quick, easy read.) Another good book is "Vaccines: Are they really safe & effective?"

Yes, not vaxxing is the default. You can not take them back. The majority of the diseases are not a concern until later in life. After all, most shots need 2-3 rounds before they are complete. The ONLY reason they do them at age 2, 4, 6 months, etc, is because you are already taking your baby in for well visits, so that's when they have a captive (and scared, and uninformed--IMO) audience to get them done expediently...No, I'm not joking. "Compliance" is of primary concern when the vax schedule is determined, as in - when can we get the patient to show up? This is why newborns get Hep B shots!!! Not because they need them, but because no one is going to hold the hands of the hookers and the drug addicts when they are old enough to "need" them.
post #9 of 85
9/5/08 at 1:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri View Post

I was reading another thread when I came across this statement in your response. At first it made perfect sense to me; but the more I think about it, the more I ask "but what if the baby gets something deadly or paralyzing before I have a chance to learn about the disease and vaccine?"; and that scares me too. I'm saying this out loud and honestly, because I know I'm not the only one following this thread, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm scared of both vaccinating and not vaccinating. I need more information, links, books, websites, whatever you've got. Talk to me!
Well, whether or not the medical establishment likes it, the default state of the human body is unvaccinated

Fear is a rotten decision-making tool. No major decisions should be made on fear. You shouldn't decide TO vaccinate because you're afraid, and you shouldn't decided NOT to vaccinate because you're afraid.

Have you lived the first two months of your baby's life in fear that they would catch something "deadly or paralyzing"? If not- what changes at the magic 2 month mark?

Personally I'm a believer in as close to primary sources as possible. My best research came from sources like- CDC, VAERS, vaccine manufacturers, old nursing and parenting books, etc.

Research should include:

vaccines- combos, ingredients, listed side effects, known adverse reactions, recorded connected deaths, etc.

Diseases- numbers of cases, symptoms, complications, treatments, chance of death, etc.

When it comes right down to it- all the diseases we currently vaccinate for have known treatments. The vaccine reactions do not.

Even the CDC admits that there is a higher chance of vaccine reaction than even CATCHING *any* of the vaccine available diseases.

-Angela
post #10 of 85
9/5/08 at 2:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by firsttimemama View Post
...I'm not comfortable with vaccine ingredients
I'm not comfortable with vaccine safety testing...
Where can I find out about the ingredients, and where can I get information about the safety tests? (I know things are slightly different here than in the US, so if you know of anything Canada-specific, please let me know)
post #11 of 85
9/5/08 at 2:08am
you can usually find the vaccine inserts with ingredients if you google the company that makes the vax. (merk etc)

Canada uses the same vaxes as the US - same safety research (or lack thereof...)

-Angela
post #12 of 85
9/5/08 at 2:17am
Thread Starter 
Thank you Angela; those are some good and very logical answers.

Autumn; are you serious? Ew. This is definitely unpleasant news to me. Thanks for sharing; I'll visit the MySpace page tomorrow for sure!

And for anyone else following this thread; here is a list of things to 'ask' when researching vaccines, that I bookmarked from another thread.
post #13 of 85
9/5/08 at 2:44am
One of the mods-Emmaline(?) has awesome links in her sig.

Maybe visit the I'm Not Vaccinating forum-lots of well-informed mommas there too.

Hats off to you,just for even questioning this issue.
post #14 of 85
9/5/08 at 10:43am
My favorite resource is http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/.
post #15 of 85
9/5/08 at 4:53pm
Well I honestly agree with the searching every single vaccine, studies done, when and how those studdies were done, how were those studies funded? was the disease already on the downslope?

Most importantly.... how does the doctor react... do you feel they are pushing your decision like a car salesman, when you haven't studied it out yet. My sons Ped.s entire demeaner changed as soon as vaccinations were brought up, esp. full of uncertainty after the reactions. He acted strange.


I read the VAERS, I read the CDC information, and I went from there. I found mothering, and for the first time in my life, I didn't feel so alone or attacked!

I personally will not ever vaccinate again because I watched my sons reactions to them. So I have the personal one on one horror story that no one wants, and yet it spoke volumes to me, much more than just trying to get something from studies and numbers. He is not autistic, but he was covered in a rash, huge swelling of the entire limb of the injection site, and went into convulsions. He couldn't make eye contact for a while, his eyes completely glassed over, and he had no temperature.

So as the debate goes on, and I assume it will for years! My children will not recieve any more based on both study, research, and first hand experience.

I like listening rather than reading... so this is one of my favorite places to visit, and send others too as well.

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_bl...afe-48866.aspx

Oh... one more thing... Look into the Amish community and Autism... Look into other religous communities or groups that do not vaccinate, and the amount of Autism and other diseases there...
post #16 of 85
9/5/08 at 7:26pm
Ever wonder what happened to the Plague? Or Scarlet Fever? Sure, they're still around, but they are not epidemic. Yet we in the US or Canada don't vaccinate for them. And nobody worries about them either, even though they have potential to be fatal. Heck, the Plague wiped out one third of Europe once upon a time. But we're not living in open sewers anymore.

We personally feel that the body's natural state is healthiest. Plus we object to many of the ingredients, including aluminum and aborted fetal tissue. And we feel that some of the ingredients may compound conditions that predispose an individual to autism.
post #17 of 85
9/5/08 at 7:52pm
http://www.vran.org/

This is a Canadian Site.
post #18 of 85
9/5/08 at 7:54pm
Just wanted to add that a breastfeeding momma has lots to offer a babe in immunities!!
Lots of viruses and bacteria are not able to compete with moms milk-keeping yourself healthy goes a long way also.
Aviva Jill Romm has a great book out if you lean toward herbal remedies-
VACCINATIONS -A THOUGHTFUL PARENTS GUIDE
post #19 of 85
9/5/08 at 10:24pm
I'm reading The Vaccine Book by Dr Sears right now and really like the format. Although it's worded in as neutral a way as possible (still quite a bit pro-vax), it's really made me confident in my decision not to vax. He goes over each illness, each vaccine, how it's made, what the side effects are, why some people choose not have them, why some people do. It's a surprisingly easy read, it's engaging. Like one of two evenings' time.

Basically, alot of the vaccines for the first couple years are for things your baby won't likely catch if he's not attending daycare and you're bf'ing.

Some other vaccines are more of a public health issue than a "your child may catch that" thing. If you feel that it's important, your kids can get those when they're teens or something.

Anyway, check to see if your library has the book!
post #20 of 85
9/5/08 at 10:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malva View Post
I'm reading The Vaccine Book by Dr Sears right now and really like the format. Although it's worded in as neutral a way as possible (still quite a bit pro-vax), it's really made me confident in my decision not to vax. He goes over each illness, each vaccine, how it's made, what the side effects are, why some people choose not have them, why some people do. It's a surprisingly easy read, it's engaging. Like one of two evenings' time.

Basically, alot of the vaccines for the first couple years are for things your baby won't likely catch if he's not attending daycare and you're bf'ing.

Some other vaccines are more of a public health issue than a "your child may catch that" thing. If you feel that it's important, your kids can get those when they're teens or something.

Anyway, check to see if your library has the book!
:

The book leans toward being pro-vax but it actually convinced me NOT to. Weird.

Also, what deadly disease are you afraid of? You mentioned being nervous about that so I was wondering which one you had in mind.

Best of luck to you. It can be overwhelming to start out. I remember that feeling. If you want, I would be more than happy to break down each vax/ disease with you and give you my thoughts on the matter.
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Mothering › Mothering Discussion Forums › Health › Vaccinations › Vaccinations Archives › How Do You Decide? › Ok, flex your anti-vax muscle at me....please.