"In 20 years of practice I have never seen an adverse reaction.. but I have seen babies die!!!"

[just_lily]

I took my babe to her 2month WBV today. Of course my gp freaked when I told her we would be delaying vaccines. Things she told me included:

- in 20 years of practice she had never have anyone completely not vaccinate

- she has never seen an adverse reaction

- she has seen babies die from vaccine-preventable diseases

- the fact that I am a SAHM and therefore my babe is not in daycare offers no additional protection and I can easily "bring home" diseases

- contracting Hib could kill my baby

- and she mentioned the measles outbreak in BC. Actually, she couldn't remember if it was BC or Sask, but it was because people didn't vaccinate.

She also pointed out that I have a happy, healthy baby and if I want to keep her that way I should immunize. And she warned me that public health would be calling to basically harrass me if I don't.

Ugh.

So I just feel the need to do some more research, especially from Canadian sources. The US ones are great, but I have been told that since our vaccines have different formulations that ours are fine, even if there are problems in the States. True? I have no idea.

My gut is really telling me to stick to my guns. So far ignoring my mama-instincts when it comes to confronting HCPs has resulted in an intervention-filled birth (that ended in a C-Section) and completely ruined any possible breast feeding relationship with my daughter. I need to learn to listen to that little voice. I just really suck at confrontation.

So does anyone have any good Canadian info sites?

[loveyourohana]

This is sooo hard, and I am so sorry that you are being placed in this possition...

Just look at it that way though... you are being placed in a position you never should be placed. This is your decision! I don't believe that your doctor has never seen a reaction... I think that is the biggest huck of bull I have ever heard.

As far as the dept. of health... as soon as they call "This is the public health dept." click... you don't need to engage yourself in further stress...

That is my opinion!

Do you have exemptions... could you take your daughter to a Naturopath? I have a friend in Canada who is a ND... Not sure where you are, but I could send you her information... she is one of those bright shiny personalities that I am sure would know someone she could refer you to as well...

[JERENAUD]

I think too that it depends on which province/ area you live in. The only thing that my public health unit has done is send periodic postcards reminding me that a particular child is due for a particular vaccine. No calls, no threats. Of course, this is the public health unit that sent me a letter advising me to get the rubella vaccination following my pregnancy as I was no longer immune... but that if I could prove that I'd already had 2 doses, that was fine too (though clearly my non immune status wouldn't have changed).

When I went to the Children's Hospital in Calgary they were shockingly calm about the fact that my baby (then 9 months) hadn't had a single vaccination. They asked, I answered, end of story.

I'm doing my first set of WBV in a few weeks and am wondering how it'll go. The last time I went to one (2 years ago; my kids are 2 and 5) my oldest had had the 'basics' (not prevnar, menjugate, chicken pox) so I didn't get hassled. Obviously things are a little different now...

Good luck dealing with your doctor. I'd venture to guess that the only reason she's never seen an adverse reaction is that she refuses to acknowledge any possible link between x symptom and y vaccine... but maybe that's too cynical of me!


I don't know of any Canadian websites - what I did was go to the vaccine manufacturers websites, figure out who was licensed to distribute in Canada, and printed out all of the vaccine inserts. hundreds and hundreds of pages, but they clearly outline what studies have been done and how, etc. There is a Canadian book, written by people from the Hospital for Sick Children (Toronto) that is supposed to be pretty good - but it's also very pro vax, of course.
Erica

[Proverbs31]

http://www.vran.org/

[MilkTrance]

Originally Posted by just_lily

She also pointed out that I have a happy, healthy baby and if I want to keep her that way I should immunize. And she warned me that public health would be calling to basically harrass me if I don't.

My first response would be -- "so?"

If parents make decisions based on whether others will disagree, well -- why make any parental decisions at all? Leave it all up to the "experts" -- but wait, even those disagree.

My second, more helpful, response is -- that's not true.

They send you a letter. They send you a couple of "reminders" in the mail. Maybe I had a couple of phone calls. I forget. But they don't harass you. Then again, I don't take my baby to the doctor very much (ahem -- never), so there isn't much chance of us being "harassed."

[MilkTrance]

So far ignoring my mama-instincts when it comes to confronting HCPs has resulted in an intervention-filled birth (that ended in a C-Section)

I totally understand where you're coming from with that. Yep. BDDT.

Also -- if you don't feel confident standing up to the docs, you could always play the "stupid female" role, one that I'm not fond of, but it is useful in certain situations -- i.e., stand behind whatever your husband decides; "I'm not sure, I have to run that by my husband" etc.

[applejuice]

This is only the beginning; you have eighteen more years of this nonsense. Good luck.

[CanidFL]

Originally Posted by just_lily

So I just feel the need to do some more research, especially from Canadian sources. The US ones are great, but I have been told that since our vaccines have different formulations that ours are fine, even if there are problems in the States. True? I have no idea.

That is so silly! My sisters's midwife (in canada) told her that too when I was talking about the research I was doing. I don't think Canada makes special vaccines that are any different the the states. They may have taken the mercury out earlier though...... I would get the brand names from the doc and you can look up the inserts on line. Easy enough to see what is in them.

[gilamama]

listen to your little voice honey, in the end the only ones you will have to answer to are your child and yourself.

that dr is only in your life for abt 15 minutes at a time at widely spaced intervals. the dr is *your* consultant who *you* hire to help *you* take care of *your* baby. if they are not helpful find some one who is.

[Kat_shoshin]

You sound like me... Your powerless birth has led you to be a powerful mama who won't be pushed around by the great scary medical establishment now that your babe is out.

Power to you Mama! I sometimes wonder if I had had an empowering birth in the traditional sense if I would be as un-willing to be pushed around now...

I will tell you that you will continue to run into these people. While in emergency with our son for an unvaxable virus, I was told about this rare case of a boy (fully vax') that was brain damaged from measles, to try to get me to vax then and there. Everyone I speak to is pushing one vaccine or another with a story like this. My doc only pushes polio and chickenpox (an unlikely combination) and I was told off about not getting Prevnar when being prescribed ABX for a viral ear infection...

Trust your gut and do your research and look for a new doc if this one is now going to peg you as a crazy person.

[LavenderMae]

I would believe she's not admitted that any child in her practice has had a vaccine injury. She hasn't seen any because she's willfully blind to them most likely.

Anyway her pressure and scare tactics are inappropriate and I would really want to find another more respectful doctor if possible. I wish I had followed that advice years ago when I tried to talk to my older children's ped about vaccines. He was so disrespectful and basically told me I was just a mother and he was a doctor so I should listen to him. I did not have the resources back then to research vaccines on my own so I gave in and have regretted it ever since.
Do your research and make the decision that's best for your child.

[Cindy-Lou]

DS is 2 and is not vaxed and I have not received one phone call from public health. DS has a family doctor who would prefer that I vax but respects my decision not to. He also has a naturopathic doctor and that's who I would take him to if he were to get sick. So far, all he's had are a few minor colds.
Here is a link for some new canadian books. They were recommended by our ND:
http://www.drbailetti.com/naturopath/book.htm

[carfreemama]

I'm in Nova Scotia.

We did not do a single vaccine until dd was almost 3 yo. She has been very, very healthy and so not much interaction with the healthcare system. The few times I have called a doctor, I did hear "she is fully vaccinated, isn't she?" There was always a long pause when I said no and it felt like reassurrance was deliberately withheld from me at that point. Other than that, I didn't even know public health called people.

We have never done a flu vaccine, chicken pox or Prevnar. Dd's best little friend's mom proudly talks about how her dd is "fully vaccinated," i.e., with everything anyone has come out with, and she's been sick about a bazillion more times than dd, including ear infections; which dd has never had.

We are lucky enough to have a family doc here who delayed vaccinations with her own dd. Also, SHE told me that in 25 years of family practice, she had seen only one case of meningitis when I asked about Prevnar (supposed to reduce the risks in some way), but told me she could never be sure she HASN'T seen vaccine injuries and that's why she advises caution with too many vaccines. I hate dealing with this. I am still not 100% confident in my decision and I KNOW I will freak if dd gets chickenpox. However, that same doctor told me she'd be better off just getting the virus from some kid's party, so I won't have to deal with the judgment. I'm afraid I might cave if I did.

BTW, I think thimerosol is the one that's supposedly been removed here. I remember that from being pregnant and having the blood incompatibility thing.

[suschi]

Originally Posted by just_lily

She also pointed out that I have a happy, healthy baby and if I want to keep her that way I should immunize.

Odd, I HAD a fat happy healthy baby, until the shots, then he turned into a cranky baby and wasted away to skin and bones.

I was going to link the VRAN site, very good site for Canada.

Trust your instincts, I wish I had, I may still have a fat healthy child.

Instead, I have a now 9 year old who weighs barely 40 pounds.

[Mama2E&O]

I find that hard to believe. Likely there have been reactions, but they were dismissed as "normal." My dd had a severe reaction to the DTaP, and we were told it was perfectly fine and normal.
Also, from what I have seen, doctors will often label something like meningitis as a vpd- and push the so-called meningitis vaccines on parents that way.

[just_lily]

Thanks for the advice and support, ladies. We are in a small community outside Calgary, and here vaccines aren't given by the doctors. It is the public health clinic that does... so that is why they would end up calling me or whatnot.

I was actually really shocked at what happened yesterday. I generally really like my family doctor, and she has advised me follow my mama-instincts and do what I think is best on a number of other issues related to my baby, so I really wasn't expecting the lecture.

I will definitely check out those sites.

Thanks again!

[BaBaBa]

Never seen a reaction?!?!

Our in clinic in Ontario won't let children leave the office for 20 minutes after getting a vaccination in case they have a reaction!

[Scattershoot]

In 20 years of practice I have never seen an adverse reaction..

That's pretty easy to say when you define adverse reaction to vaccination as anything that happens, except crying, screaming and flailing, within 27.4 seconds of receiving the shot. Of course, if the child goes home and dies that night it was either a virus or the parents did not put the child to bed the right way or the parents must have shaken the baby and in absolutely no way, shape or form could it have been related to the vaccination.

[Crazybean]

I'm sorry you had to find one of THOSE doctors.. look around for another more understanding one and see if you still have the same concerns. I felt like crap after my doc told me the same things yours did and I started doubting my decision (I guess I always followed authority since I'm a goody two shoes). I found a doctor who is supportive of my vax stance and I'm super confident now. The one thing that fuels me more than anything is when I hear ignorant comments. My doc told me he saw a mom refuse the HIB vax and a few weeks later her baby girl came down with HIB and died. Then he said that the husband wasn't aware that she refused it and he divorced her and she couldn't live with that decision.. The stores they will tell to scare people is sickening.. I asked the doctor for the year and location because I wanted to look up the case in the newspaper (surely the press would have been all over that since it was so recent) and he suddenly wasn't sure of anything. HIB wasn't introduced until the mid 1980's -1990 right? Well, most of us here were born before 1985 and we magically all survived

Although not vaccinating is my stance on it, everyone has to choose the stance that is best for their family and comfort level!

[MyBoysBlue]

I'm in AB too. I've never had the health clinic call me for DS 2. I think I ended up flying under their radar by having a UC even though DS has seen a Doctor 3 times since birth. I had DS 1 in hospital and I used to get calls all the time to remind me to make appointments for him. He was fully vaxed until 2. I was at MIL's the other day and they tracked down my SIL there to remind her to get my Niece's shots. They can be persistent if you get on their list. I think there should be some way for you to get your name off their list if they do start calling. It should be considered harassment.