or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › "Training a child is like training a dog"
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Training a child is like training a dog" - Page 2

post #21 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah View Post
Huh. I have to disagree. Can you really never think of a single time in your whole life, espcially when you were a child, that it actually felt a little bit good to make someone else feel bad? Maybe I should be seeking mental health assistance, but I think that your outlook ignores a part of our humanity that may be ugly but is there nonetheless. This is always my issue with the "unmet needs = misbehavior" paradigm. I think that sometimes the unmet need can just be to experiment with "bad" behavior, and that the most well-rested, comfortable, satiated child in the world is still going to occasionally have to stray to the dark side. It's part of growing up and learning how to define oneself -- both by our good deeds, and our bad.

Anyway, sorry for the totally OT philosophical rant!
I agree, natensarah. But I think this is more of an older child thing. Kids can be cruel (especially girls). I remember in late elementary and middle school just how terrible my group of friends and I could be to people we didn't like and even to each other.

ETA: However, I believe this was type of behavior was more a product of our social environment and how we were raised as opposed to an innate attraction to the "human dark side", kwim? Because I've met a lot of children that aren't like this at all. I grew out of all of that manipulation, teasing, backstabbing type of stuff by my mid-teens.
post #22 of 59
My ex-step father used to say this to me and I found it soooo offensive as a teenager and I think it made me rebel even more. I do not sit and stay just b/c you say so.

So we don't subscribe to that theory at all in our parenting. However, I do see some similarities between raising dogs and kids, but the core issue goes back to UP, do you want children to obey mindlessly or develop internal morality that will guide their behavior? Dogs are unable to moralize which is why we focus on obedience training, so, I guess, conversely parents who raise children like dogs are neglecting the development of morality in their LOs.

I think I might invite your friend over to watch the UP DVD together. THat should give her something to chew on.

Oh, and if anything in my house the dogs are training the baby.She chews on socks, toes, shoes. I swear they've been coaching her from the sidelines.

V
post #23 of 59

the thing is, I'm not training my kid...

I've thought about this a lot because my next door neighbors are really into "training" their children and I've had to think hard about why it give me the creeps. They care a lot about their children being "obedient". They mostly do it gently, constantly saying "good girl" or "good job" (but SOOOO many adults do that to children), don't raise their voices, etc. To my shock, they do give unhurtful but noisy little "swats" on the butt and say a curt "no thank you" just like you would with a dog! (okay, with a dog you might say, "bad", right?)

Here is the main point for me: I am not training my child. I am not interested in obedience. My sincere desire is to be a family that lives together with love and respect. My child is a young human being, still learning how to just be himself in this world together with other people, and yes, he needs guidance, assistance, and clearly expressed, age-appropriate expectations and limits in order to be successful.

I joke that my son is much better at "training" me than vice-versa (think of how much you've completely reorganized your live, home, and even sense of yourself since having kids!!), but really, its just a joke. We love eachother, we have, for now, a relationship where he is dependent upon me to satisfy many (well, almost all) practical and emotional needs, but this will change. He will grow to be independent of me, though hopefully we will still have a loving and respectful relationship. With a dog, the state of dependency (and corresponding responsibility on the part of the humans) will last the entire lifetime of the animal, and so, the goal is actually VERY different.
post #24 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteNicole View Post
If you read my post you quoted, that was sort of my whole point.
That would be why I said that I agreed with your post though I do think that you could have been a little more clear on the differences between children and dogs and how you raise them. There is also a big difference between something sort of being your point, as in you were thinking along those lines and not writing along those lines, and something actually being your point. Also, the second part of my post was directed more at the OP as she is the only one who knows this lady and how she treats her dogs/what she meant by the statement.

To the OP, I don't think that building your child up a lot should be considered bad parenting or even something to worry about if you hear it. Praise can also be a great thing for some children, I certainly wouldn't be where I am today if my mother hadn't surrounded me with so many positive things about me and if I hadn't internalized them. She will find out very quickly that her child isn't going to obey her blindly, in fact, as a high school teacher she may already be used to being questioned a lot and used to working with that. Teenagers aren't exactly compliant.
post #25 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah View Post
Huh. I have to disagree. Can you really never think of a single time in your whole life, espcially when you were a child, that it actually felt a little bit good to make someone else feel bad? Maybe I should be seeking mental health assistance, but I think that your outlook ignores a part of our humanity that may be ugly but is there nonetheless.

:

My sister used to sit on my head and fart - I guess that makes her evil....?

Of course, I would exact my revenge in oh so sweet ways. (where's the evil cackle icon?)
post #26 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsmom View Post
ETA: However, I believe this was type of behavior was more a product of our social environment and how we were raised as opposed to an innate attraction to the "human dark side", kwim? Because I've met a lot of children that aren't like this at all. I grew out of all of that manipulation, teasing, backstabbing type of stuff by my mid-teens.
Yeah...but. Where is the society that hasn't had that as an element of it? I think we're getting far better, and more moral, in general (with quite a few setbacks, obviously), but we're still human. And part of being human is being competitive. We're not completely cooperative animals, and we sometimes enjoy seeing our enemies vanquished (or farted on, whatever the case may be.) I'm not saying this is positive, and I strongly believe we should continue to strive to be better, more empathic people. I'm just arguing for a greater reason for misbehavior than too much high-fructose corn syrup.
post #27 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomuchspade View Post
You friend is in for a big surprise. Neither one of my kids trained when I was ready, but when they were. And it was different with both! I read all sorts of books and pretty much didn't learn anything except that my kids were ready at their own pace and I had to go along or be frustrated!
Exactly. Books can be awesome, but they're merely a starting place. They give you the "tricks" to put in your "bag" but it's all up to you to figure out how to use them in the best way for your family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah View Post
I'm just arguing for a greater reason for misbehavior than too much high-fructose corn syrup.
We're avoiding this ingredient ourselves with noticeable difference, but I completely agree. We're not gods, we're all human. And, yes I did have a specific child in mind with my original example: a wonderful kid who is very affectionate for the most part. But, it is part of the human toddler/preschool nature to experiment with getting reactions from other people. This particular child truly does enjoy a sincere screech/yelp/grimmace of pain. Why? Simply because Mom does nothing about it other than time-out without any explanation or follow-up discussion/story later, etc. This is a child who has learned never to listen to anyone else besides her mother. That seems to work for them so far, but it doesn't work for everyone else who comes into contact with them & it will not continue to work for them for long. Unless they enjoy denial.
post #28 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papooses View Post
We're avoiding this ingredient ourselves with noticeable difference, but I completely agree. We're not gods, we're all human. And, yes I did have a specific child in mind with my original example: a wonderful kid who is very affectionate for the most part. But, it is part of the human toddler/preschool nature to experiment with getting reactions from other people. This particular child truly does enjoy a sincere screech/yelp/grimmace of pain. Why? Simply because Mom does nothing about it other than time-out without any explanation or follow-up discussion/story later, etc. This is a child who has learned never to listen to anyone else besides her mother. That seems to work for them so far, but it doesn't work for everyone else who comes into contact with them & it will not continue to work for them for long. Unless they enjoy denial.
Oh, yes, I didn't mean to insinuate there it is foolish to avoid HFCS or anything you've noticed a reaction with. Or helping them get enough sleep, or anything like that. I just don't think that's enough. Like in your example, there's obviously something going on in that dynamic that isn't helping the child learn to deal with her natural impulses to hurt someone in a socially acceptable manner.
post #29 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah View Post
Huh. I have to disagree. Can you really never think of a single time in your whole life, espcially when you were a child, that it actually felt a little bit good to make someone else feel bad? Maybe I should be seeking mental health assistance, but I think that your outlook ignores a part of our humanity that may be ugly but is there nonetheless. This is always my issue with the "unmet needs = misbehavior" paradigm. I think that sometimes the unmet need can just be to experiment with "bad" behavior, and that the most well-rested, comfortable, satiated child in the world is still going to occasionally have to stray to the dark side. It's part of growing up and learning how to define oneself -- both by our good deeds, and our bad.

Anyway, sorry for the totally OT philosophical rant!
No, I can't think of a single time in my whole life that it actually felt a little bit good to make someone else feel bad. I've certainly made other people feel bad. It feels awful.

Why would that feel good?
post #30 of 59
You should ask her if that means she will implement biting and attacking on occasion.
Does that involve biscuits.... will she paddle them with news papers when they wet the floor? All those degrees, who cares, don't give her that much credit.

She is out of her mind and I hope you find the way to talk reason into her or she'll have a bunch of beta minded under achieving kiddos on her hands that never move out of the house as independant, healthy, confident, overacheiving adults.
post #31 of 59
That was my mom's view. There's some truth to it, sure. But there's a lot more going on, discipline-wise, between a parent and child than there is between a human trainer and dog. Remember, dogs are domesticated. They have been bred from their natural form--wild dogs and wolves, as I understand it--to what we know today, everything ranging from great danes to bulldogs to chihuawas (sp). Alongside those physical changes, humans have bread for behavioral traits--and a big one is obedience. Humans do have an instinct to obey, but so do wolves--it's much more mixed with other instincts which have done well through natural selection.

That's the background explanation for something that should be obvious to anyone--human children are not dogs, and if you approach them that way, you will lose something in your relationship.

I think when someone takes that approach, they are basically saying "This is as much as I am capable of understanding and dealing with." People often bring handicaps to their parenting, and that's hers.
post #32 of 59
The problem IMO with this line of thinking...dogs stay at one level of understanding/inelligence/communicability (is that a word?). You train and teach a dog knowing that it will continue to be the same dog, stuck in the same place in regards to age/intelligence (whatever you want to call it). You guide a CHILD to think for themselves, to develop and grow and become a human being with their own opinions and veiws who take care of themselves. They are continually learning, growing and changing, and getting more mature toward the end of (for most of them!) functioning on their own, living on their own, making their own decisions. It's just not the same.
post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
Sure, if you want to end up with a child who lies on the floor and begs for treats.
: to this and also to the peeing on the lawn comment!
post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
No, I can't think of a single time in my whole life that it actually felt a little bit good to make someone else feel bad. I've certainly made other people feel bad. It feels awful.

Why would that feel good?
really? yeah, it feels bad after you hurt them because the guilt sets in...(or the punishment, if you're punished for the deed).

but in the moment, when you're kicking your brother in the balls because he stole your doll and gave her a haircut without asking, you feel GOOD!

at least i did
post #35 of 59
Believe it or not, there's actually a BOOK that compares the two:
The Dog Trainer's Guide to Parenting: Rewarding Good Behavior, Practicing Patience and Other Positive Techniques That Work . And yes, I've read this book. I checked it out from our library because I was oddly fascinated by the title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellp View Post
Nonono...she would never hit a dog and she treats them with upmost respect! My concern is that she would over-praise them and expect that her child would be submissive to her wants and desires. See above note re: competetiveness and overacheiver...

She used to be a high school teacher and is used to being around teenagers, but obviously she's never dealt with young kids and never 24-7. Sending them to the Principle and talking to a teen's parents is far removed from actually dealing with your own son, yk?
Well, you know, I think she's in the process of finding that out. She's got an 8 week old!

If she's a high school teacher, you could certainly engage her in an intellectual discussion of praise, and share some of Alfie Kohn's ideas. I have to say that I do praise my kids and I don't lose a wink of sleep over it. I'm not heading down the path of complete non-coercion either. So, while I respect Kohn's ideas, there are other points of view out there. I do want to raise thinking kids. I do negotiate with my kids. I don't insist on complete obedience. But you know, there are times when for the good of the family, I need my kids to do something that is non-negotiable.

As an aside, there was a really interesting discussion on this board about a year ago about praise, and I was struck by people who said that their parents never praised them and how much it bothered them.

Somewhere there's a happy medium.
post #36 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post
But dogs don't clean their rooms or learn to cook and do laundry. So there.

It'd be a whole lot cooler if they did.
post #37 of 59
Oh, I can see it. All analogies are flawed, but this one has some points. Be consistent. Don't be "afraid" of your child (or your child's tantrum). If your methods garner fear they will backfire.

She probably is just exasperated by all the conflicting experts out there, and doesn't *want* to get into a debate on their various philosophies. You know, the whole "I don't need a book to teach me how to raise my child" thing. I am sure she means to be cute.
post #38 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
Sure, if you want to end up with a child who lies on the floor and begs for treats.
post #39 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by readytobedone View Post
really? yeah, it feels bad after you hurt them because the guilt sets in...(or the punishment, if you're punished for the deed).

but in the moment, when you're kicking your brother in the balls because he stole your doll and gave her a haircut without asking, you feel GOOD!

at least i did
Actually, no. It's empathy because the other person feels bad. Nothing to do with punishment.

And I have 5 brothers and sisters. And a load of cousins. Clearly it's not universal for everyone to feel good when they make someone else feel bad.

Especially hurting someone that badly. I can't imagine feeling anything except awful for the person in pain. Nothing to do with guilt.

I believe you that you do. It's just a bit beyond my ability to comprehend.
post #40 of 59
Dog is a Dog!!!!!!!!!! or all the animals are animals! They have only animal intelligence. Nothing more! Animals don't have human intellectual or rational senses. Dog can't comprehend beyond his dog world. For example, dog can't imagine anything in the abstract. The animal can't imagine that the world is round or use the computer.
Only human can figure out about the nature and discover things. Man is the highest work of creation, the nearest to God of all creatures.

I can understand why she is comparing the dog to a child in regard of material or physical needs but....
Children are very smart; they can understand discipline from age of 9 months old and learn things for their parents. Obviously, she doesn't have any respect for children.

We suppose to teach spirituality, virtues and good manners to our children. I can't see how a dog could learn all those!!!!!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Gentle Discipline
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › "Training a child is like training a dog"