kids who don't respond to "normal" gentle techniques

[mommy2caroline]

Wondering if anyone else has a kid like this... and mine is 3.5, so maybe that's the problem! I try to use gentle strategies to guide her and work w/ her, but she seems to just want to fight against me, even when I am being gentle.

I came across this statement from Elizabeth Pantley: " Children are not little adults, but they are little people. They love their parents and they want to understand them. Give them an opportunity to listen and to learn and to participate in a conversational exchange with you," and, "When you have a request, or have something to say, take the extra minute or two to get eye-to-eye with your child and talk clearly and respectfully. Explain what you want and why you want it. Ask questions to confirm that your child understands you. This exchange of information doesn’t take very long, and the pleasant results are well worth it."

And I just want to shout "BS!!!" My dd pulls away from me, laughs, won't look at me when I get eye to eye with her. I will do it gently, calmly, speak respectfully, explain my reasons, etc. And she will just argue w/ me instead. She argues with my explanations. She asks me a question and then argues w/ my answer or my explanation. She seems to stubborn and defiant.

Is it just her age? She really doesn't seem to *want* to understand me at all. And her favorite thing in the world is to have conversations with me - so it is really quite draining when the conversations always turn into a battle.

[nathansmum]

It's her age. With my kids, they are more likely to accept the approach that Elizabeth Pantley talks of if they are already feeling good (as in it's been a battleless day), not tired or hungry etc. But other times, we just muddle through.

I don't see GD as meaning that you get compliant kids because of it (not suggesting that you're expecting this, but I know to begin with I was wondering where the payoff was kwim?) - to me GD is a means of keeping the communication lines open and your relationship intact even if I do need to do something that they're not happy with. The times when I do pull rank on them I validate their feelings and explain the reasons why and it usually works out ok anyway. If they're tired, well it really is a right off and I don't beat myself up over it except to try not let things go down that path (which I find tricky atm with 3.5 yr old dd who has no day nap but is really quite tired a few hours before bedtime).

It pays off eventually. My 5yr old is really quite easy to reason with now most of the time with the patient GD approach and I believe it's because he's just that bit older. My dd who is 3.5 definitely struggles with it still, but I know that we'll get there and the skills that she's learnt from my approach will get through to her and is all (mostly!) good modelling.

HTH

[4evermom]

I don't know what that quote is from but unto itself it is awfully one sided. Where is the focusing your attention on what the child is trying to express (verbally or nonverbally)? Where is the focus on facilitating what the child is trying to do? Seems to me that the less I try to guide ds, the more reasonable he is, lol.

I know, I know, sometimes you just have to do something in a certain timeframe but... sometimes not as much as you think. Being flexible with kids and listening to what they want does teach them (eventually) how to do the same for you. It's like how babies and kids learn how to love by being loved.

And it does get better with age. When they are a little older, they don't get tired as much. They don't need snacks as frequently. So it is easier for them to stay on a more even keel.

[Best Feeling]

Every kid is unique. At 3.5 my oldest was quite capable (though not always willing, LOL) of reasoning. My youngest, who is currently 3.5...not so much. In addition to not having a one-size-fits-all technique, what once worked for my kid(s) doesn't always work. For a while, both kids were really into the idea of coming up with solutions. I could take virtually any problem and turn it around by suggesting that we all work together to find a solution that made everyone happy. It was great while it lasted but, alas, after a few months it isn't as effective.

So, rather than using some gentle parenting "formula", I just stick to my ideals (respect respect respect), and tailor my specific action/response to the child and situation.

I have to admit that I really dislike the whole get on their level and making eye contact routine. When I am communicating regularly I don't do that so it always felt artificial and condescending to do it any other time. It doesn't help that my kids never responded well to it either.

[DevaMajka]

I agree with the pp who said that it seems a bit one sided. An important part of getting cooperation, especially when kids are just "coming into their own" is respecting that what they want/feel/etc is just as important as what you want/feel/etc.
So it's all well and good to sit and explain to your child why they can't, for example, jump on the bed. But they still have that impulse to jump (or for physical activity, or for entertainment, or for attention...whatever). So it's important to honor that impulse by giving them a way to express it that is acceptable.

Incidentally, my ds doesn't like it when do what that quote is recommending when it's to talk about something serious. He laughs or looks away. I think it's a nervous response. He responds way better to other ways of telling him things.

[Destinye]

I have been feeling the same way, DD is 4.5 and spirited and not doing too well with GD (well I know its me that not doing well with it) she can reason perfectly well (too well!) thats not the problem!

[MusicianDad]

Children are not little adults, but they are little people.

I think that's the key point. Being people, it's in their nature, at least for some of them, to argue to point.

What is the end result of these 'battles'?

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by DevaMajka

Incidentally, my ds doesn't like it when do what that quote is recommending when it's to talk about something serious. He laughs or looks away. I think it's a nervous response. He responds way better to other ways of telling him things.

Yeah, it's easy for that to be too confrontational or something. Maybe more so for most boys? You know the thing about how boys tend to have better conversations side by side, like on a car ride, rather then face to face.

It is important to make sure your dc knows you are talking to him or her and touching them gently can help. Sometimes a parent says something repeatedly, then shouts because s/he didn't get a response. But the child wasn't tuned in to the first few times because the parent didn't make sure s/he got the child's attention first.

[mommy2caroline]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

I think that's the key point. Being people, it's in their nature, at least for some of them, to argue to point.

What is the end result of these 'battles'?

I guess by "battles," I mean that she'll ask me a factual question (ex: "What kind of animal is that?") or my opinion ("Mommy, do you like x?")... and then she argues with me response. I am trying to teach her to say, "I disagree," instead of, "No, it's not!!!"

In the issues where I am going to stand my ground (like, "No, you cannot play with the decorative, breakable knicknacks on the top shelf."), I just don't give in (I don't have to give her the knicknacks and she cannot get to them, so it's not so much a battle with her not complying but rather with her arguing with me). She will keep asking me and giving me reasons why I should do what she wants. She comes up with really intelligent reasoning, too... my brother likes to joke that he's going to come visit and get outsmarted by a three year old. So I'm glad she's a thinker... but it sure is exhausting! In this kind of situation, I will reinforce my reasons for not doing what she wants, and then I ignore any more comments or questions on the subject... even so, she might still go on about it even though she's not getting a response. Eventually she gives up.

[MusicianDad]

Well, I'm thinking that at 3 while she maybe old enough to understand. She's not old enough to understand. She knows what your saying, but she doesn't know how it applies exactly.

I think DevaMajik probably has a point that she might respond better to other ways of telling things. Though for the questions she asks and then argues with you about have you tried heading her off with the same question? Or a similar one?

"I like X, what do you like?" or "That animal is a/n x, do you like it/want a closer look?"

"What kind of animal is that?"

That one actually reminds me of an episode of House, he has a conversation with a girl about whether her stuffed animal is a bear or a dog.

[LynnS6]

I find that too much talk is ineffective with my kids. I need to separate out the reason from the request or it all goes into blah-blah land for them. Sometimes I give reasons, sometimes I only give reasons when they ask for them.

"Take your plate into the kitchen please. (they take the plate) Thank you, it's helpful when I don't have to clear all the dishes myself."

"Feet on the floor. Feet. Floor. Thank you. This grocery cart is tippy and I was it was going to fall sideways."

It also helps to remember to tell them what TO DO and not what not to do. So, "sit down" is much more effective than "don't stand on the chair."

In addition, your child is pretty young still. 3 1/2 is just about at the age where they can engage in some reasoning with you. They aren't often able to take another perspective, so they often don't understand another point of view. I've had a lot of conversations with dd (who is 4 now) that go along the lines of "Stop! You didn't look before you crossed the street. You need to look for cars or you couldn't get run over." "But mom, I didn't!" The whole concept of "but I might next time is hard."

I'd HIGHLY recommend the book "Playful Parenting" - I find that this approach works better for my kids than the 'reasoning' approach. Partly it's age, and partly it's temperament. For example, dd refused to wash her hands after using the toilet this morning. We've been through the "germ talk" about a thousand times. Instead of trying it for the 1001st time, I found a Little Person on the floor and said "hm... he's looking kind of dirty. Do you suppose you can give him a bath in the sink?" Dd had a fine old time bathing Little People and animals. And her hands got clean. It was a playful way to achieve the same goal.

[One_Girl]

A lot of this is normal kids stuff. I find it helpful to decide ahead of time what I will and will not negotiate on and to let dd know when I am not offering a choice or negotiating. It helps to not have a lot of non-negotiable stuff because if everything is non-negotiable, but there are some things and knowing that ahead of time and following through has helped dd to know that when I am serious and not offering a choice she really needs to listen. This is hard when I get really busy and sometimes I get into the habit of repeating myself to much until I am frustrated and she listens once I hit the frustrated point, but I try very hard to be aware of when that is happening and return to being more on top of things so we both are aware of where the boundaries are. Listening to your child's opinion and empathizing with their feelings is an important part of this, but that doesn't mean that you give in because you are tired of arguing. If you are repeating yourself like a broken record a lot even Alfie Kohn talks about not responding anymore at a certain point if the answer isn't going to change.