How do I set personal limits without being mean and/or punishing!?

[mamabohl]

I am just so tired of my children. They treat me like shit. Especially my almost 4 yo. I don't know how I've gotten into this pattern of letting them walk all over me, and i don't know how to get out of it. I've read a million parenting books but I still just have no idea what to do. Most of all I worry that I'm raising these horribly rude selfish people because I let them treat me this way. But how do I set limits about how I will be treated by another person without being mean? I don't want to punish or take away things or yell. What do I do!? Here are some examples of the way they treat me -

*Almost 4yo DS wants a toy that is upstairs. He yells at me to go get him said toy. He really says it in this ordering type voice! I have tried reacting to it in many different ways, all end up with him continuing to scream at me over and over again, often with hitting me and pulling on me inculded. The screaming and attacking does not stop. It just goes on and on and on. If I try to get space from him while he's being so violent he follows me wherever I go.

Pretty much everything is another variation of that actually. Younger ds makes a demand or oder, then all hell breaks loose when I don't comply. He's so volatile, I just can't stand him by the end of the day most of the time. Older ds (who's 6.5) can be rude too, but it's mostly younger ds I guess that constantly treats me like I was made to serve him. So what do I do when ds is screaming at me? Attacking me? Maybe I should check out The Explosive Child again...Last time I told myself that ds was just being a toddler, but as he gets older I wonder more...

[LilyGrace]

Aw, mama. Just do what you can to define your boundaries. Forget about controlling them, decide what you will and won't accept and make sure you're the one acting, not forcing them to. Personally, if I had a child continue to follow me I'd go into a locked room and take a break for a few minutes. Say what you need to firmly: "I respond to polite requests only. You need to say 'may I have a drink, please?'. " Or "the toy is upstairs. I know you can get it." Repeat it once and then walk away to do something else. If you start getting angry take a break - it can take them some time to adjust to the new rules and they will try everything to make it like it was before. Start charting little successes so you can see what is working and what isn't and adapt.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

You absolutely have the right to be treated with respect. Before anything else, you need to believe that down to your toes. Your children also have the same right. If either (or both) sides of that equation are working right now, then you need to change things so they are. That will probably take some work and adjusting on everyone's part.

Because at least your two older children are old enough to understand this, and because they will notice changes, I would start by sitting everyone down and explaining this basic fact. Indicate that the family priority will be treating others with respect. Demonstrate what that means. Also say that requests made without respect / politeness won't be met.

Make sure you model treating others with respect -- your children (hard to remember!), the store clerk, the person who cut you off in traffic.... Everyone should be treated politely but firmly.

Then, absolutely do not respond to rude, demanding requests. No matter what. Child makes demand, you say "Please say that respectfully." or "I will be happy to talk to you when you use a polite tone." or whatever you want to make your mantra. Do not give in!! If child screams and yells, ignore it. Starts hitting? Say "I will not let you hit me" and move -- to a room with a lock if necessary. Your children are old enough to know you aren't abandoning them forever, just moving to be safe. Honestly, by 4 I would have picked up child, carried them to their room and said "You are welcome to come back downstairs when you are calm" and walk out. Repeat as necessary. But not everyone is OK with that semi-timeout approach.

At the same time, when requests are phrased well, be sure to respond right away. Not "in a minute" (unless you are totally tied up (say, in the bathroom), then its "I'm in the bathroom, I'll be with you in a second". Remember to say "thank you for being respectful" when they are. Its really easy to put a child's request off until they get really demanding, thus training them to get demanding faster next time. Point out the people around you who are being polite and how nice it feels to help them.

Be prepared for it to get worse before it gets better. My best friend calls this the coke machine response. What happens when the coke machine doesn't give you a drink? You shake it, you hit it, you might kick it. You don't just shrug and walk away. Your kids will do that too when they don't get the response they expect from you. Eventually things will shift, but it will take time.

There is nothing "anti-GD" about setting and enforcing limits, or expecting to be treated appropriately. You don't need to punish to get there, just don't give in to inappropriate behavior, model the behavior you want, and explain why and what so they kids are forced to guess what you want from them. It does take time, constant repetition and being mindful of everything that you do. But it IS do-able.

[ktmama]

Mama, I'm so sorry you are feeling disrespected! You've gotten some great advice here and I agree with the PP. I would just add that you need to keep things simple and remain as close to 100% consistent as possible. One of the most important things for kids is that they can predict with certainty what a parent's reaction will be. It helps to have a plan in place - even if you have to write yourself sticky notes all over the house - and stay "on message".

Best of luck!

[Embee]

I'm going to offer a slightly different take, and feel free to disregard if you don't feel it fits your situation.

When my DS is demanding in this way, it's a sign of how he's feeling INSIDE which is usually a very different picture altogether. If he feels the "need" to order me around, chances are, he is the one feeling powerless. The result of that being repeated attempts to get me to do his bidding. When he's feeling secure, self-possessed and all is right with the world, he is self-sufficient, easy-going, helpful to himself and others. Therefore, I tend to handle these things in stride, not take them personally and focus on DS and why he might be feeling the need to behave this way. I keep in mind that although his actions may have me feeling walked over and 'powerless' to a degree, he is clearly the one experiencing some sort of life issue. And as the parent, I'm really the only one of the two of us that has the power to turn the situation around. DS, being immature, simply doesn't have the emotional tools to do this (as of yet).

Usually, I handle it playfully: After one or two demands, I get flustered, and I respond over the top silly, "YES SIR! I'LL GET THAT RIGHT UP FOR YOU SIR!" And then I trip all over myself trying to get the job done. It results in many giggles and usually, a realization of what he's doing. More importantly, it breaks the tension between us, and in time, the cycle of rude demands. If I'm sensing that he's having an on-going issue, I spend a little more time with him, special playtime which is a great way for us to nurture our attachment. And when our attachment is on good-footing, it's a good bet that he won't feel the "need" any longer, to control me. When he feels a disturbance in our attachment, he'll do anything--including boss me around--to keep me "working for him." It's almost as if he anticipates that I WON'T help or be there for him, and in that sort of panic, he thinks he needs to make demands for me to attend at all. It makes no sense on the surface, I'm a very helpful type parent but again, I have to keep in mind that this isn't about me. It's about him feeling powerless for whatever reason.

In general, we're a "helpful to each other" family. If DS is into a project and needs something and asks me to get it for him, I will. If I'm otherwise occupied, I might say, "I'm in the middle of something so if you don't mind waiting for 5 minutes. If that won't work for you, you're welcome to get it yourself." I might get an eye roll, but no worries. He'll usually choose one or the other and move on with his project. In return, DS is usually willing to do a favor for me here and again. "Could you hand me that?" "Will you let the cats in?" "Would you hold the door for me?"

And then there are those times when DS just plain loses his manners ("Get the wooden blocks!"), to which I reply with my best 'irritated yet kind' smile, "Uh, try again there fella." He'll usually immediately ask again more appropriately, avec sheepish grin.

Truly, I find the less I make of this sort of thing, the better. The more I let it get to me, the more panicky DS becomes and he then tends to up the ante. Also, I'm always aware of myself when I'm setting an example of letting another persons actions dictate my feelings and this includes DS. IME, the more I attend to demands happily or even playfully, the more responsiblity DS tends to start taking for himself. He is secure in the fact that I've "got his back" and this is the very thing that motivates him to take responsibility for himself. Sometimes it helps to think of Gordon Neufeld (Hold On To Your Kids) when he says, "To foster true independence, you must first invite dependence." Or something like that. At any rate, when DS is driving me mad, it helps to remember this little tidbit.

My .02 for whatever that's worth. Best of luck, mama!

Em

[ktmama]

He'll usually immediately ask again more appropriately, avec sheepish grin.

Em, is your French slipping in?

I really enjoyed your post. I realized yesterday that I naturally do some of this myself. Yesterday, dd2 wanted me to play with her, but I was making dinner. So, I said, "honey, my hands are busy (that's how I say it) making dinner. You can either come up here to be with me or wait a few minutes and I'll come play with you." She said, "I'll wait." and was able to wait about five minutes.

[reezley]

The book "The Secret of Parenting" comes to mind. It suggests we ignore the bad stuff and wait and express appreciation for the good stuff. I agree with the pp who said do not respond to the rude demands. I would first have a meeting (and several reminders) with them to explain the new rule, that rude demands/whining/yelling/etc. will not get what they are asking for, that you want to hear the nice way of asking. Then when it happens I would say once that I did not hear the a nice question, and I would ignore and wait. If hitting starts I would say I don't stay around to be hit and I would move/leave the room if necesary, etc. (My ds1 does attempt to hit when he's getting frustrated and this is what i do. Sometimes I first catch his arm and tell him "I know you're frustrated but I don't like to be hit" and that's enough.)

[Kiera09]

Originally Posted by Embee

Usually, I handle it playfully: After one or two demands, I get flustered, and I respond over the top silly, "YES SIR! I'LL GET THAT RIGHT UP FOR YOU SIR!" And then I trip all over myself trying to get the job done. It results in many giggles and usually, a realization of what he's doing. More importantly, it breaks the tension between us, and in time, the cycle of rude demands. If I'm sensing that he's having an on-going issue, I spend a little more time with him, special playtime which is a great way for us to nurture our attachment. And when our attachment is on good-footing, it's a good bet that he won't feel the "need" any longer, to control me. When he feels a disturbance in our attachment, he'll do anything--including boss me around--to keep me "working for him." It's almost as if he anticipates that I WON'T help or be there for him, and in that sort of panic, he thinks he needs to make demands for me to attend at all. It makes no sense on the surface, I'm a very helpful type parent but again, I have to keep in mind that this isn't about me. It's about him feeling powerless for whatever reason.

I 100% DISAGREE with this.

I think that playful parenting has a place - but this isn't it.

IMO - it's not OK to encourage or reward a child being rude or abusive by turning it into a game. That only makes it happen more.

Personally, I would wait for a polite/respectful request - and then make that fun. So - hold out until he asks nicely or you to get the toy - and then be all playful about it. Make him feel powerful when he acts appropriately. Slowly turn it into a fun game where the two of you go get the toy together - like a race. And then slowly get him to do it on his own.

I agree that it indicates that there is a need which he needs filling. And as that need is filled - the behavior should go away. But - you don't need to let yourself be walked all over to make that happen.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Kiera09

I 100% DISAGREE with this.

I think that playful parenting has a place - but this isn't it.

IMO - it's not OK to encourage or reward a child being rude or abusive by turning it into a game. That only makes it happen more.

Personally, I would wait for a polite/respectful request - and then make that fun. So - hold out until he asks nicely or you to get the toy - and then be all playful about it. Make him feel powerful when he acts appropriately. Slowly turn it into a fun game where the two of you go get the toy together - like a race. And then slowly get him to do it on his own.

I agree that it indicates that there is a need which he needs filling. And as that need is filled - the behavior should go away. But - you don't need to let yourself be walked all over to make that happen.

To many parents, a child's behavior is more heavily influenced by the attachment than by behavioral techniques, so, under that paradigm, it would be more effective to use a playful parenting technique than withhold an opportunity for attachment because of the possibility of reinforcing an undesireable behavior.

[Kiera09]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

To many parents, a child's behavior is more heavily influenced by the attachment than by behavioral techniques, so, under that paradigm, it would be more effective to use a playful parenting technique than withhold an opportunity for attachment because of the possibility of reinforcing an undesireable behavior.

I've read the book too... I still disagree with it.

I've seen a few kids who parents fully believe in this technique. 2 years after they started - the kids are still rude and demanding and has no respect. Maybe it works for some kids...

The technique I MUCH prefered from the book was that of having a good time getting the polite response.

"Oh no - my legs don't work" fall to the floor in a heap "help - I'd love to get that toy for you - but my legs won't do what I tell them. Maybe if I ask them nicely to work... OK legs - please let me move you. Yay!!!! Hmmmm - maybe I can stand up if I ask them very nicely... etc..."

Personally - I wouldn't actually do anything for the child until I was asked respectfully. I'm not a doormat - and I don't need to be walked all over. I don't let my boss do it. I don't let my husband do it. I won't let my child do it.

[mamazee]

Have you read How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen? This is exactly the kind of thing they talk about - setting boundaries and being real (and allowing your emotions to show) without being mean. It's been out for a long time and is very common so your local library would almost certainly have a copy. I really think this book would make you feel a lot better and help you.

Good luck!

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

It really important to realize that you can do lots of things at once to "correct" unpleasant situations/behavior. And especially when you feel things have gotten out of control and ugly, then you really have to. Probably child needs more attachment/time/attention however you want to say it. And so finding more time should be a priority, but that doesn't mean it has to be while child is being demanding. It should, ideally, be before child is demanding. But children also need to learn to wait, to be polite, and to respect others. So we need to model that AND provide feedback / direction when child isn't being pleasant. It needs to all work together. Which is why its such darn hard work!

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Kiera09

I've read the book too... I still disagree with it.

I've seen a few kids who parents fully believe in this technique. 2 years after they started - the kids are still rude and demanding and has no respect. Maybe it works for some kids...

The technique I MUCH prefered from the book was that of having a good time getting the polite response.

"Oh no - my legs don't work" fall to the floor in a heap "help - I'd love to get that toy for you - but my legs won't do what I tell them. Maybe if I ask them nicely to work... OK legs - please let me move you. Yay!!!! Hmmmm - maybe I can stand up if I ask them very nicely... etc..."

Personally - I wouldn't actually do anything for the child until I was asked respectfully. I'm not a doormat - and I don't need to be walked all over. I don't let my boss do it. I don't let my husband do it. I won't let my child do it.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I like your suggestions. I'm just suggesting that their are other things that influence behavior besides behaviorism.

One thing I've noticed is that when a child is an only child, the attachment to the parent has way more effect, usually, than it does when the child has siblings. DD is an only and she responds extremely well to playful parenting and a focus on making the connection with her more harmonious when her behavior is unpleasant for me. I think if she had siblings that dynamic would be very different, and I probably would have to pay more attention to behavioral influences.

One thing that hadn't occurred to me is that I am ever being treated like a doormat. I just don't think in those terms, I guess. I would think, "ugh, this is enormously unpleasant; what does she need and how can I turn this around."

[DevaMajka]

Have you read Secret of Parenting? If not, I highly recommend it.

I think that punishing would really only make the situation worse, but I also think that hitting is NOT something to tolerate. I really wish I had a magic solution for you.

I'm going to try to think some more while I read the rest of the thread, and hopefully have more ideas for you.

I know for my child, when he tries to hit out of anger or whathaveyou, he *needs* some love and compassion from me. I ask him if he wants me to hold him, and he almost always does.
I personally would not go get a toy for him if I had already said no and he get more rude and screamed and/or hit. And he would get the "oh no you didn't" look of the century.
But even though I wouldn't do the task he was asking/telling me to do, I would ask if he needed a hug. Ime, that does not reinforce the behavior. It didn't take long for him to be able to control his anger and stop hitting people.

[mamazee]

I feel bad that we're all suggesting books, in case she doesn't have time for that or wants info faster. But all the books suggested are good ones.

I found a summary for the book I suggested and maybe that would help and only take a few minutes to read?

http://www.hitinc.org/uploads/resour...o-kids-wil.pdf

I don't know specifically what will help but I hope you find something.

[mamabohl]

I just wanted to pop in real quick and say thank you all for the words of encouragement and ideas, they've all been very helpful. I'll post more in depth replies later once the kids are asleep.

[Embee]

Originally Posted by ktmama

He'll usually immediately ask again more appropriately, avec sheepish grin.

Em, is your French slipping in?

LOL, 3 years of high school French, and this is all I've got to show for it.

The best,
Em

[Embee]

Originally Posted by Kiera09

I 100% DISAGREE with this.

I think that playful parenting has a place - but this isn't it.

Ouch. In my several years of contributing to the boards here at MDC, I've never had a post singled out in such a vehement way. I'm not looking to start a debate at all, mama but if I may be so bold as to elaborate my position...

Originally Posted by Kiera09

]IMO - it's not OK to encourage or reward a child being rude or abusive by turning it into a game.

I believe the difference between us is in how we think about discipline. I do not see my approach to DS's demands as a reward, but rather a response to his needs. In any given situation, I put our relationship before behavior. If DS is making rude demands, something is off with him. I see it as my "job" to help him get to the heart of it. Once that work is done, the behavior not only falls away, but by benefit of me not withdrawing when he is at his worst, he knows he can count on me to see the "whole DS" rather than just the immature behavior. Another quote from Neufeld here:

"It is precisely when our children are at their worst, that they need us the most."

If I focus only on his behavior and how to "control" that, I may very well miss an important opportunity to help DS with something he may be struggling with. Moreover, I've found this approach gives DS much needed tools for dealing with his strong emotions/behavior in the future.

Originally Posted by Kiera09

That only makes it happen more.

Respectfully, this has not been my experience. If it was, I wouldn't be sharing it with the OP. My DS is-in the big picture--a great kid. Overtime, he has come to learn a lot about himself through playful parenting (I like the book obviously, but my views have been reinforced by Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves Aldort and with regard to attachment, Hold on To Your Kids Neufeld). In the course of a regular day, DS is naturally kind in his requests and is very helpful to me as well. Our rapport is rather consistently respectful. He has what I would term as "enormous" patience for one so young and a great deal of the time our family works together in a way that I'm extremely proud of. I am more than confident that our playful parenting relationship has much to do with this. But things are never perfect. People have rough days and DS is just as entitled as the next guy. If things are off for DS, demanding behavior is a symptom, something to be explored, and not as a behavior to be simply stamped out. Indeed, DS is not likely to repeat the behavior over and over however, he is likely to want to play the game I start as a response to his 'bad' behavior over and over. To be clear, it is the GAME he'll wish to repeat. Which presents us with an opportunity to play things out positively. We'll play "demand boy" and "bumbling mommy" over and over. Usually, DS will at some point wish to switch roles and be me, giving him a golden opportunity to know what it's like to be on the other end of the rude demand. The most gratifying part about this however is that DS, more often than not in the Mom role, will respond with kindness, "Now Mommy, I know you're not feeling good about something. You wouldn't be acting this way if everything was ok. Let's see if we can figure it out!" It blows my mind, truly.

Sometimes it helps me to think about it in terms of my relationship with DH. There have certainly been times when we've been irritable and cranky and rude to each other. And perhaps our initial response might be to dish it right back but if we're to truly solve the problem, help the other person explore what's bothering them, somebody has got to let their guard down, kwim?

At the end of the day, it takes one to know one. With demanding behavior specifically, I understand DS's "need" to control his external circumstances. Namely, because when *I'm* feeling anxious about something (even if I don't know what it is), I begin a cycle of trying to control my external world in order to quell my inner anxiety. It never works. : As an adult and because I know this is something I struggle with, I can recognize it pretty much right away (well, sometimes DH might give me a hint ), do some much needed thinking, deal with whatever it is that is bothering me and resume normal life. I can see DS making strides in this area actually, something that took a good deal of my early adult life to workout. Having had this experience myself, it makes it easier to see what's going on for DS and deal with that underlying cause. And if my approach helps in giving DS the tools he needs to navigate his own emotional struggles, well then, it's time and energy well spent.

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

One thing that hadn't occurred to me is that I am ever being treated like a doormat. I just don't think in those terms, I guess. I would think, "ugh, this is enormously unpleasant; what does she need and how can I turn this around."

Well put. My sentiments exactly.

Again Kiera09, not looking to start a debate. I completely respect your right to have and to share your opinion here. I guess for me, in the few years of parenting I've logged, I've found that there are many more things I can be "light" about than I ever would have thought. Indeed, it is the times when I'm not so light that we seem to get into trouble, power struggles abound, cycles of behavior I'd rather do without, etc.

The best,
Em

[mamabohl]

Today was a really good day. It's amazing how much it helps just to take a step back and really look at how I am acting/reacting. I'm going to try to answer some replies without making a total book...Oh, and my younder ds is Isaiah (4 in Oct) and my older ds is Trevor (6.5)..I just have the two kids.

Originally Posted by LilyGrace

Aw, mama. Just do what you can to define your boundaries. Forget about controlling them, decide what you will and won't accept and make sure you're the one acting, not forcing them to. Personally, if I had a child continue to follow me I'd go into a locked room and take a break for a few minutes. Say what you need to firmly: "I respond to polite requests only. You need to say 'may I have a drink, please?'. " Or "the toy is upstairs. I know you can get it." Repeat it once and then walk away to do something else. If you start getting angry take a break - it can take them some time to adjust to the new rules and they will try everything to make it like it was before. Start charting little successes so you can see what is working and what isn't and adapt.

Thanks for the kind words. The only problem with locking myself in the bathroom (that's the only room with a lock) is that Isaiah starts pounding/kicking on the door and screaming/crying like crazy and ends up waking dh, who sleeps during the day. I have added stress when he starts tantruming because I feel really bad if Dh gets woken (he says he doesn't mind but I still feel bad because it disrupts his sleep cycle). Both my children insist that they are too scared to go upstairs alone. I don't get it. They will go together, but when Isaiah gets in his mood he only wants me to do it and won't accept Trevor's offer of help. Charting the successes is a great idea, I tried to pay attention today to how many times he was kind/respectful/polite and realized that I had been so focused one when he wasn't doing it that I didn't realize how often he does ask me instead of telling me. He really does try, which was wonderful to realize since sometimes I feel like he doesn't care about me.

[mamabohl]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

You absolutely have the right to be treated with respect. Before anything else, you need to believe that down to your toes. Your children also have the same right. If either (or both) sides of that equation are working right now, then you need to change things so they are. That will probably take some work and adjusting on everyone's part.

Because at least your two older children are old enough to understand this, and because they will notice changes, I would start by sitting everyone down and explaining this basic fact. Indicate that the family priority will be treating others with respect. Demonstrate what that means. Also say that requests made without respect / politeness won't be met.

Make sure you model treating others with respect -- your children (hard to remember!), the store clerk, the person who cut you off in traffic.... Everyone should be treated politely but firmly.

You are so right, I was not modeling that respect to my children. I hadn't realized how controling I had gotten with Isaiah. I had gotten so tired of the battles every day that I had started demanding before asking because i felt like it would turn into a battle either way. Just being aware helped so much today. I was careful to let Isaiah do things on his timeline instead of mine, and asked him if/when he would be willing to do requests instead of telling him they must be done. Sitting them down and spelling it out is important too, I will try to do that tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

Then, absolutely do not respond to rude, demanding requests. No matter what. Child makes demand, you say "Please say that respectfully." or "I will be happy to talk to you when you use a polite tone." or whatever you want to make your mantra. Do not give in!! If child screams and yells, ignore it. Starts hitting? Say "I will not let you hit me" and move -- to a room with a lock if necessary. Your children are old enough to know you aren't abandoning them forever, just moving to be safe. Honestly, by 4 I would have picked up child, carried them to their room and said "You are welcome to come back downstairs when you are calm" and walk out. Repeat as necessary. But not everyone is OK with that semi-timeout approach.

I don't completely disagree with you here, but I have found that my children seem to feel physical seclusion as a withdrawl of love. They totally freak at the idea of being forcefully separated from me. Plus there's the whole bedroom being upstairs near sleeping dh and upstair being mysteriously scary. Oi. It doesn't make sense to me cuz sometimes I just want to be away from everyone, they must get that from dh.

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

At the same time, when requests are phrased well, be sure to respond right away. Not "in a minute" (unless you are totally tied up (say, in the bathroom), then its "I'm in the bathroom, I'll be with you in a second". Remember to say "thank you for being respectful" when they are. Its really easy to put a child's request off until they get really demanding, thus training them to get demanding faster next time. Point out the people around you who are being polite and how nice it feels to help them.

Oh my gosh duh! I realized today that I do put him off every time he asks me to do or get something. It's always "in a minute" or "after such-and-such." Today I responded quickly to every polite request and he was so much more understanding the couple times I couldn't. I also thanked him when he was polite and he seemed happy with himself/ happy that I was noticing.