Abortion Law

[Round Belly]

Maby somebody can answer one question for me.

How can partial birth abortion preserve a mother's health? And if you are going to go through birth anyway, can't you just let the child live?

[feebeeglee]

I have often wondered the same thing.

What a crazy world we live in.

[Greaseball]

I wouldn't be surprised if it were only done the way it is to keep the mother's vagina intact.

[hotmamacita]

Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a partial birth abortion. I have never heard of this before.

[turquoise]

Originally posted by hotmamacita
Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a partial birth abortion. I have never heard of this before.

This is something that I wish I didn't know about, but if you really want to know - I did a google and here's what I found: http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html

If you go to the site, be prepared to cry.

This site on surface appears to be pretty balanced. They have info on the VERY rare circumstances that would make it medically acceptable, (the baby will most surely die either way and if you don't perform the procedure he or she will take the mom too) but even then a cesarian could usually be performed instead, giving the baby a hope for a miracle. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm

I think this sums it up:

"A select panel convened by ACOG could identify no circumstances under which this procedure...would be the only option to save the life or preserve the health of the woman." They also determined that "an intact D&X, however, may be the best or most appropriate procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman, and only the doctor, in consultation with the patient, based upon the woman's particular circumstances can make this decision."

emphasis mine

I'm reading this paragraph to mean that while there are always other options available, in come cases these options may not be available to the dr (some drs are more skilled than others).

It's all so sad.

There is evidence that the procedure is sometimes performed for other reasons: in the case of a very young pregnant woman, or a pregnancy which resulted from a rape or incest. Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop has stated that no competent physician with state-of-the-art skill in the management of high-risk pregnancies needs to perform a D&X. Of course, many physicians lack this level of skill, and so need to resort to the D&X procedure. And, even in the United States, not all women have access to good quality pre-natal care. Many pregnant women first seek medical attention when they are about to deliver.

GRR re:

In addition, some physicians violate their state Medical Association's regulations and perform elective D&X procedures - primarily on women who are suicidally depressed.

[Greaseball]

There is evidence that the procedure is sometimes performed for other reasons: in the case of a very young pregnant woman, or a pregnancy which resulted from a rape or incest.

Why can't she have a first-trimester abortion? And in the case of the suicidally depressed woman, she could be induced and deliver vaginally, and the baby could go to the NICU. How is it that she would be more suicidal if her child lived?

[AmyB]

"Partial birth abortion" (not a defined medical term) would usually be used in order to to avoid doing ceasarean surgery to deliver a fetus with such severe abnormalities that it will die outside the womb.

We all know that cesarean surgery is far more risky than vaginal delivery. Imposing this ban would force a women to undergo surgery at a time when she is facing not only the tragic loss of a child she probably wanted, but also serious risk to her own health that requires a quick, emergency delivery of the fetus.

When president Clinton vetoed the abortion ban he said:
"I understand the desire to eliminate the use of a procedure that appears inhumane. But to eliminate it without taking into consideration the rare and tragic circumstances in which its use may be necessary would be even more inhumane."

I hope this answers your question.

--AmyB

[Greaseball]

I'm sure if a child was wanted, most people would have surgery (or deliver early with pitocin) if there were any chance at all the child would live.

And if a child was not wanted, why wait until the 3rd trimester to do something about it? I understand not everyone knows they are pregnant in the first tri, but early in the 2nd tri they usually figure it out.

[AmyB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greaseball
I'm sure if a child was wanted, most people would have surgery (or deliver early with pitocin) if there were any chance at all the child would live.

Actually, if something like this happened to me, I would almost certainly choose an abortion and a quicker recovery time over abdominal surgery that would not only make my own medical condition more serious but involve a longer more painful recovery time.

Maybe I'm not most people, but in these circumstances I would not willingly risk my own health in order to pretend for a little while longer that the baby might live.

--AmyB

[Potty Diva]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmyB

Originally posted by Greaseball
I'm sure if a child was wanted, most people would have surgery (or deliver early with pitocin) if there were any chance at all the child would live.

Actually, if something like this happened to me, I would almost certainly choose an abortion and a quicker recovery time over abdominal surgery that would not only make my own medical condition more serious but involve a longer more painful recovery time.

Maybe I'm not most people, but in these circumstances I would not willingly risk my own health in order to pretend for a little while longer that the baby might live.

--AmyB

Same here Amy. I just don't see the point of punishing a mother who is already losing her child. I would choose abortion in this circumstance as well.

Induction with pitocin??? Has ANYONE (sorry for raising my voice) read that a baby with Hydro has a head 20 TIMES larger than average and CANNOT safely pass through the birth canal?

[spero]

Originally posted by AmyB
[BWhen president Clinton vetoed the abortion ban he said:
"I understand the desire to eliminate the use of a procedure that appears inhumane. " [/B]

B-freakin'-S.
Don't even get me started on the "desires" that Clinton understands.

The procedure IS inhumane, and grossly so.

[Greaseball]

I wasn't talking about hydro heads, I was talking about mothers who have PBA because they are suicidal or too young and don't want the baby.

Major surgery is not the only option. How do you think they get the head into the vagina for a PBA? Wouldn't they have to induce labor? Why don't they just deliver a live baby with a small chance of survival? What further inconvenience would this have on the mother? It's not like she has to raise the child. She never has to see it again.

What would the chance of survival need to be for a mother to be willing to have surgery or induced labor? 10%? Greater?

[3boys4us]

B-freakin'-S.
Don't even get me started on the "desires" that Clinton understands.

The procedure IS inhumane, and grossly so.

Then don't have one. YOU aren't being forced to undergo this procedure - you are supposed to be given a choice - ergo - you would choose not to.

I cannot understand how so many AP women could judge other women so quickly without compassion.

This is form Planned Parenthood:

Medical indications may lead to abortion after 12 weeks. Discovery of serious fetal anomalies, such as severe genetic disorders, or conditions in which the woman's health is threatened or aggravated by continuing her pregnancy include

malignant hypertension, including preeclampsia

out-of-control diabetes

heart failure

severe depression

suicidal tendencies

serious renal disease

certain types of infections
These symptoms may not occur until the second trimester, or may become worse as the pregnancy progresses (Cherry & Merkatz, 1991; Paul et al., 1999)

Other Reasons for Postponing Abortion Past 12 Weeks

lack of financial and/or emotional support from the male partner

psychological denial of pregnancy, as may occur in cases of rape or incest

lack of pregnancy symptoms, seeming continuation of "periods," irregular menses

absence of partner due to estrangement or death (Paul et al., 1999)
Adolescents Often Delay Abortion Until after the First Trimester

From NOW:

Myth: The "partial-birth" abortion bans only apply to late-term abortions.
Fact: With only one exception, none of these laws mentions stage of pregnancy.

That means that these bans could apply to abortions at every stage of pregnancy.


Myth: If we just pass these "partial-birth" bans, we won't have to worry about access to first and second trimester abortions.

Fact: Abortion procedure bans passed in 28 states are so vaguely worded that they could ban abortions throughout pregnancy, even in the first trimester.

Proponents of these bans admit they intend to limit or eliminate access to all abortions.


Myth: These bans are necessary to reduce the number of third trimester abortions.

Fact: States already restrict abortions late in pregnancy, permitting them only in certain rare cases.

The real goal of these bans is to restrict access to all abortions -- even in the first trimester. When Wisconsin's abortion procedure ban went into effect, every women's clinic in the state stopped providing abortion services.


Myth: "Partial-Birth" is a medical term which describes a particular abortion procedure.

Fact: You will not find the term "partial-birth" in any medical dictionary because it was made up by anti-abortion advocates.

It is a political term used to convince the overwhelmingly pro-choice public to support anti-abortion legislation. As defined in state ballot measures and legislation, the term could apply to any procedure, at any stage of pregnancy.


Myth: Even doctors support abortion procedure bans.

Fact: The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) describes abortion procedure bans as ". . . inappropriate, ill-advised and dangerous."

[Round Belly]

Life has rights

Every life has rights. A right to struggle for survival, a right to die humanly. However, the right to end another human's life for our convience is not one of them.

We have the obligation to extend the right to life to every living thing. This includes weeds, plants, cows and fetuses. IF we do not respect life, then we do not deserve others to respect our own life.

Sometimes we got to end a life of an animal or plant for our consumption. As long as we respect the life of the animal or plant and take joy in the nurishment therein, then that is fine. But if we kill just for sport or convience that is wrong.

Abortion seems to be mostly killing for convience. Convience because you do not want a baby, or because you do not think you want a special needs baby.

Ok ladies, let's face it you kind of have to do something to get pregnant. So if you have sex, expect the consquences- and respect the life. But because you did something to cause this life it is now your obligation to respect it, adn give it a chance at life- that doesn't mean you have to keep the baby- there are many people willing to adopt babies.

[isleta]

How many more threads are needed for this topic? I mean obviously people have their opinion, but all this information has been on other threads!
:

[3boys4us]

Abortion seems to be mostly killing for convience. Convience because you do not want a baby, or because you do not think you want a special needs baby.

So why did you start the thread? You asked for reasons as to why a late term abortion might be needed and then go on to state that it doesn't really matter - so what was the reasoning here? We have fought over this issue many times.

If you have a formed opinion already - state it and move on. I gave you reasons why SOME women and couples might make this decision - obviously it's not yours nor does it appear that you really cared for any answer.

IMO this is just baiting BS.

[Marlena]

I agree that this is just baiting bs.

But one comment bears note:

I wasn't talking about hydro heads, I was talking about mothers who have PBA because they are suicidal or too young and don't want the baby.

Huh? Can you please cite for me how many intact D&Xs were done last year, or the year before, or the year before that, SOLELY because the woman was suicidal or "too young and didn't want the baby?"

Citations, please.

[GoodWillHunter]

Round Belly--

Think for a moment you are pregnant. Sometime in the second trimester, you find out this baby has no kidneys (yes, this can happen.). Do you choose to go through the pregnancy so you can watch your beloved baby die immediately after birth? Do you go around with your pregnant belly and have strangers smile at you and ask you when it's due? Knowing that what you will be doing when that baby is delivered is picking out a coffin? A burial plot?

Some women can't cope with this. There is no way some fetuses can live outside of the womb. D&X, while seeming to be barbaric, can allow a woman to mourn what might've been instead of continuing to live in denial until the day of delivery.

Some women, I guess, are not as strong as you are. Good luck if this happens to you.

[seren]

Quote : I cannot understand how so many AP women could judge other women so quickly without compassion.

Well, I can't see how so many AP women can be for something so cruel to a baby.

Edited to correct a mistake. :

[GoodWillHunter]

Oh, and just to point out something...

D&X are usually done in the second trimester. A fetus is not viable untill approximately 6.5 months...... You can't just give birth to a second trimester fetus and expect the NICU to save it. It has never been done. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is highly improbable.

Are you against abortion in the event of an ectopic pregnancy?