Abortion Law - Page 5

[Dragonfly]

Don't get me wrong - I can see the horror in PBA all too clearly, from both the perspective of the mother and the fetus. However, I wonder if those opposed to PBA because of agony caused to the fetus aren't discounting the agony that the fetus experiences when dying after his/her mother has given birth by c-section? I don't imagine it's anymore pleasant to die slowly outside of the womb from not having any kidneys than it is to die the PBA way (which I'd rather not repeat for my own hope of sleeping at some point).

Thinking out loud....

[CanOBeans]

Originally posted by Greaseball
IBut in the case of a live baby with a normal sized head, I'll say it again: induce with pitocin! Deliver it alive, and then see if it lives! If it dies, it's not like the mother had to go through any extra trouble. How will this be worse for the health of the mother?

Most term babies who die in utero are delivered vaginally with pitocin. The heads are delivered intact. If the fetus is already dead, it's not really an abortion, is it?

Pit induction causes a much higher rate of cesarean. So that would be worse for the health of the mother.

A pit induction of a dead baby is a different story. Because there's no worry about the baby's life or health, it can be a much more aggressive and lengthly process; fewer cesareans will result.

[TiredX2]

it can be a much more aggressive and lengthly process

Red too many horror stories about that (doctors saying, "it doesn't matter if leg/arm gets broken, the baby is dead anyway" type of stuff).

If the main objection of Intact D&X (outside of "normal" abortion objections) is pain to the baby---- does it change anyones mind if pain relief drugs were given to the baby. How about if the baby's heart is stopped *first* with drugs and then ID&X?

[Wildcrafter]

I think it's sad that pro-lifers are using pba to horrify people and sensationalize the abortion issue to further their own cause.

Having grown up in a home where one parent was (still is) entirely devoted to the pro-life issue, I know one thing for sure.
Prohibiting abortions of any kind does not solve the root problem of unwanted pregnancies. I believe it all starts with the teaching and parenting and loving of children. As for abortions for major medical reasons, for life saving, for victims of rape and incest, how can we not allow exceptions?

To me, pro-lifers are akin to allopathic medicine, they are only trying to treat the outward symptom without going deep, releasing fear and getting to the bottom of the real issue.

It's a shame that women who are going through horrific experiences as described above are additionally bombarded with a media blitz of the evils of this procedure.

[Round Belly]

You have a point Mary,

We can pass laws all we want but if we want to cure the problem we have to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place.

Would it be to much to ask people to keep sexual relations inside of marriage?

[Ilaria]

Would it be to much to ask people to keep sexual relations inside of marriage?

You can ask, but I definitely would not listen. Not everyone who has sex outside of marriage will have an abortion, nor is that the only reason for having one, even an early one.

Plus, how is sex outside of marriage related to late term abortions? I think it's been clearly established why late term abortions are performed.

[Greaseball]

Pit induction causes a much higher rate of cesarean. So that would be worse for the health of the mother.

But a cesarean is usually done to save the baby, for fetal distress in this case, right? If the idea is just deliver and see what happens, they wouldn't need to resort to surgery. It probably doesn't make sense, but somehow it seems logical to me.

Married women do have abortions. As a married women, I would seriously consider it if I got raped by another man. I also know married women who aborted their husbands' children. Marriage does not solve everything. And yes, it's unreasonable to ask everyone to practice a certain type of institutionalized sexual behavior.

About pain - I may be wrong, but it seems to me the baby would not feel pain if its skin were not cut into. In a 1st trimester abortion, don't they just suck it out? Wouldn't it just feel a loss of oxygen, then nothing? And with the heart-stopping drugs, how do those feel? Is there a chance the baby would feel pain even for a second? Why is that OK? Babies should not have to feel pain.

T
I read that when women are given the opportunity to administer their own pain relief for delivery, they give themselves much smaller amounts than doctors give them. This has also been true when they can control the flow of the pitocin. Perhaps the chance for fetal distress would be lessened if the mother controlled the flow.

[Wildcrafter]

Would it be to much to ask people to keep sexual relations inside of marriage?

I don't think being married has anything to do with the abortion issue. What I meant is caring for babies in a way that they are not out there seeking what they never got as a babe, i.e. attachment parenting, extended breastfeeding, nurturing and co-sleeping. I'll probably get mightily flamed for saying all this, but I think the lack of closeness when humans need it most, at infancy, brings about oral fixations (food, drug, smoking and sex addictions) and a desire to have sex just for the feeling of being close, hearing & feeling a heartbeat. With the basic human needs not being met, these needs remain with us.

I think that in a society where infants are treasured and cared for the way humans were designed, the need for abortions would be limited to those women with medical problems, rape, incest. And might I add if the majority of infants were nurtured in such a way I doubt there would be so many medical problems, rapes and incest.

Let the flaming begin.

[Greaseball]

What did you think you were going to be flamed for? It was right on! The way children are parented truly matters! It's not always a guarantee, but it's the best thing one can do for their child.

But, I don't think that sex outside of marriage is necessarily sex addiction. There are many sex addicts who act out sexually within their marriages, like by raping their wives. Some peoples' religious and spiritual beliefs do not support marriage, and if that works for them, I say go for it!

If children are not treated lovingly by their parents they will search for someone else to do it, and that other person may do it in the wrong way.

Will this prevent abortion? Not necessarily. If a girl is raised to be loving and to know she doesn't have to have sex with some guy just because he wants to, she can still get raped. She can still have contraception withheld from her.

One thing that would help is if girls were not raised to defer to men. That way when their husband or boyfriend told them to get rid of the baby, they would know it's not a man's choice, but a woman's. Too many women I know have had abortions because some lame-o man didn't want the baby. True, you can always say it was her choice, but it she was raised never to disobey a man from day one, she won't know she had a choice.

[EFmom]

Re the self-induced "herbal" abortions...

Not to mention that if the termination effort doesn't work, one might be left with a severely damaged fetus - not any more kind than a PBA, IMO.

And now, since we seem to be prosecuting women for delivering drug or alcohol affected children, I think prosecutors would start foaming at the mouth to send these ladies to jail.

[GoodWillHunter]

Excellent point, MaryTG. Well said.

No flames from me!!!

[Greaseball]

I heard of a case several years ago when a woman was denied an abortion because she couldn't pay, so she shot herself in the stomach and was charged with murder.

Why is it legal to have someone else abort your baby but not do it yourself? It's legal to deliver your own baby...

[Lucysmama]

Originally posted by Round Belly

Would it be to much to ask people to keep sexual relations inside of marriage?

In a word? Yes.
Marriage is social, sex is biological. Not all cultures believe in marriage, and cannot be expected to abstain because others believe that they should only have sexual relations inside of marriage. Such a proposition is disrespectful of cultural tradition and the treats sex as social issue instead of a biological one.

As far as the whole, "Just induce the mother with pitocin..." : No comment.

MaryTG- ITA that prohibiting abortions is not going to get a the root of the problem. If abortion were completely illegal, I'm sure back-alley abortionists would pop up everywhere. Unwanted pregnancies can be reduced through education, readily available birth control, and a society supportive of sexual education.

[steph]

One thing that would help is if girls were not raised to defer to men. That way when their husband or boyfriend told them to get rid of the baby, they would know it's not a man's choice, but a woman's

(emphisis mine)

You just made the case for why the discussion about abortion should be between a woman and her health care provider and not the courts.

[Greaseball]

How do they get the head into the vagina for an abortion in the first place? If not with pitocin, I'd really like to know. Do they just stretch open the cervix and then pull the baby with forceps? That sounds like it would hurt.

Of course abortion - or not having an abortion - should be up to women alone, but I'm all for reducing the need for abortions. Isn't everyone? Does anyone really WANT to have an abortion? I don't know of anyone who doesn't want kids who says, "Well, if I get pregnant it'll be just fine because I can have an abortion!" Most pro-choice people, I think, would rather avoid it. People tell me it's no fun at all. And that it hurts.