What if a teacher told your DC she was wrong, when really, she was right? - Page 3

[daisymama12]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

As for the whole right/wrong thing, DD has strong sense of justice. I don't think she is upset when she is wrong IF she is wrong. It's if she feels she is right and told she's wrong that it's a problem.

kathy, I am seriously looking into homeschooling right now. Not because of this incident or even that I think this teacher is a "bad" teacher. I think, on the whole, she is actually a really good teacher. Unfortunately, DD is going on year 2 of strongly disliking school, and unless it gets better, what's the point?

I think that strong sense of justice is very typical of this age. My son is 7, and he is outraged by perceived, or real injustice.

Sorry that it's your dd's second year of strongly disliking school, that must be tough. I'd want to pull out, too!

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by daisymama12

If it were me, I wouldn't communicate with the teacher about matter and energy, I would go and talk to her about how your daughter is managing, having just skipped a grade (pretty good excuse to set up a meeting). Maybe talk about strategies to make her feel comfortable amongst her new peers and teacher.

This. Really, I would be so much more concerned with the big picture here. Not to be dismissive, but really, why is the actually matter/energy question that important. What IS important is that your daughter was already uncomfortable answering in class and feels like, when she did, she was publicly humiliated -- whether or not she was or that was the teacher's intent, that was how she felt. I think you need to meet with the teacher to talk about your child's overall comfort/confidence in the classroom, but let the science question go.

[velochic]

Your dd was not right. The issue is not about your dd being wrong (no... matter is not equal to energy... in fact often matter is given off in physical processes during conversion and were you to convert it back, there would be less matter), the issue is how the teacher approached your dd being wrong. Perhaps she didn't go about it the best way, but she was dealing with 30 kids and trying to teach a point. Even if you take the book in, it will show that your dd was wrong, and then it could make it even more embarrassing for her.

I'd drop it and tell your dd that there is much more to learn about physical processes.

[orangecanoe]

My dd is only 4 yet, but I try to use these kinds of things as jumping off points for more discussion sort of in the style of the How to talk so kids will listen, listen so kids will talk books.

If this is going to be an ongoing issue, in that the teacher doesn't have the ability or inclination to follow these concepts more in depth with your daughter, let alone the whole class, that's another issue. I hope for your daughter's sake she isn't continually getting the brush off.

So I might have said something like, oh, man, that sounds frustrating. You were right to mention that energy and matter are related. Tell me what you know... and on from there.

[Adele_Mommy]

wow! I have no idea what your dd said originally, but based on your later post where you said you asked her and she said matter and energy are two different forms of the same thing, she obviously has a clear and accurate understanding of the topic. This is not a possibility or open to debate or "some scientists think one thing and some think another" - it is simply true: matter and energy are two different forms of the same thing.

I do think it matters when a teacher provides inaccurate information to a student. I don't think it justifies attacking the teacher, but I think it is worth calling attention to. Children need to know that they don't have to accept what someone else says just because she is a teacher or just because she is an adult.

I can totally relate to your dd having a bad year and not having a good relationship with the teacher. My dd did not have a good year in school in first grade and I found this extremely upsetting because she is capable academically and has the type of personality where she ought to like school. Since she didn't, it was a clear indicator to me that something was wrong. I spoke to the guidance counselor in the spring of that year and since then (my dd just started 3rd grade), her teachers have been much better and she has enjoyed school much more. A better fit with a teacher can make a big difference even in the same school.

The way a teacher treats a child and the things she says can have a lasting impact. Just this morning my dd told me something her first grade teacher said to her in response to her answer to a question that made her not want to provide the same sort of answer two years later with a different teacher. Here is my reply (to my dd), "Mrs B. is an idiot." I think it is great that you are supporting and advocating for your daughter and whatever you decide to say or do, I'm sure it will be more polite and acceptable than my response!

[rabrog]

The teacher didn't have to say "you're wrong" in front of the whole class. That was rude and demeaning (sp?). I bet the teacher couldn't exactly tell your DD (or the rest of the class) why it wasn't the right answer, though. I hope your DD can at least let the teacher know where her answer came from (the book). I think that's entirely appropriate.

Jenn

[lisac77]

Originally Posted by Adele_Mommy

wow! I have no idea what your dd said originally, but based on your later post where you said you asked her and she said matter and energy are two different forms of the same thing, she obviously has a clear and accurate understanding of the topic. This is not a possibility or open to debate or "some scientists think one thing and some think another" - it is simply true: matter and energy are two different forms of the same thing.

I do think it matters when a teacher provides inaccurate information to a student. I don't think it justifies attacking the teacher, but I think it is worth calling attention to. Children need to know that they don't have to accept what someone else says just because she is a teacher or just because she is an adult.

I can totally relate to your dd having a bad year and not having a good relationship with the teacher. My dd did not have a good year in school in first grade and I found this extremely upsetting because she is capable academically and has the type of personality where she ought to like school. Since she didn't, it was a clear indicator to me that something was wrong. I spoke to the guidance counselor in the spring of that year and since then (my dd just started 3rd grade), her teachers have been much better and she has enjoyed school much more. A better fit with a teacher can make a big difference even in the same school.

The way a teacher treats a child and the things she says can have a lasting impact. Just this morning my dd told me something her first grade teacher said to her in response to her answer to a question that made her not want to provide the same sort of answer two years later with a different teacher. Here is my reply (to my dd), "Mrs B. is an idiot." I think it is great that you are supporting and advocating for your daughter and whatever you decide to say or do, I'm sure it will be more polite and acceptable than my response!

First of all, the DD was wrong. W-R-O-N-G wrong. There's no two ways about it. So the teacher was correct in telling her she was wrong, if that actually happened, which I'm not convinced it is. My impression of the teacher was that she said, "Well, almost!" NOT "You're WRONG!"

Secondly, actively encouraging a child to disrespect a teacher is a bad idea. Sometimes teachers act badly, but there is nothing wrong with learning to deal with people who are superior to you who are also jerks. It's a theme that is likely to repeat throughout life, often in situations where you can do nothing about it. Better to learn to deal with those people appropriately than to harbor resentment towards them.

To the OP, I would take this as a learning opportunity to teach your DD how to accept constructive criticism. I know that it is tempting to want to be amazed with everything a child does, but there is nothing wrong with a teacher correcting a student. Your DD needs to learn how to accept that kind of thing with grace, not with outrage. I say this as a person who never really learned to accept constructive criticism, and who has had to deal with the fallout from that for many years.

[Oriole]

You can't measure energy in terms of mass and volume, you can only measure mass in terms of mass and volume. So the teacher was absolutely correct. (While Magic School Bus might have had a mistake).

If a student made a mistake, and a teacher went along with it, then every child in the class thinks that the mistake is a true statement... So I see no other way but for the teacher to say "sorry, <insert student's name>, you are incorrect, matter is NOT the same as energy".

Are they related? Sure! But so are many things in the universe.

D=S x T
Distance = Speed x Time

Does that mean Distance is the same thing as Speed? or Time? Not really... They are related, and they affect each each other, but they are not the same.

Matter can be manipulated to release energy, while energy can not be manipulated into creating matter.. i.e. you can't take light and create light bulbs, you will need glass (matter), wire(matter) to release the energy. "Release" does not equal to "create".

Pride set aside, if you do read up on the subject, or contact a professor teaching physics, of course he'll tell you matter and energy are related, but he/she will not tell you they are the same. If you decide to research it, then it would only be right to let your daughter know that she either misunderstood the book, or the book does have a mistake (which happens as well).

Going back to the general question you asked, if the teacher DOES make a mistake, then there is absolutely no harm in sending in information. If you have questions regarding material being taught, and need clarification, then there is nothing wrong in getting that clarified either.

The only concern I would have in this scenario is why my child feeling disrespected when she is corrected, and if the teacher made fun of her, or what exactly went on. Either the teacher needs heads up on treating your child with more respect, or your daughter will need to understand that it's ok to make mistakes, and that if teachers didn't correct mistakes, then kids would learn wrong information.

Good luck on either decision.

P.S. If energy equaled matter, then the formula would go "E=M". "Same" and "equal" are very definitive words, and energy does NOT equal matter.

[lisac77]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

ETA: I just asked DD: "Did you know that matter and energy aren't the same thing?" She said: "Yes-- they are FORMS of the same thing but not identical."

You do realize this is still incorrect, right? Matter and energy are not forms of the same thing.

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/2-matter.htm

That page explains the relationship between matter and energy.

[Mizelenius]

OK, so now that we have established that DD was wrong. Her info seems to be based on a book that I do not think she misunderstood (the book DOES say that matter and energy are forms of the same thing) but is incorrect. But again, I am far from an expert, so I'll leave that to the rest of you to debate.

In any case . . .

Would someone recommend good books re: science with clear and accurate information for a 6 yo?

These are examples of what she currently reads so you get an idea of what might be appropriate:

How Come?

Oh, Yuck!

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by lisac77

You do realize this is still incorrect, right? Matter and energy are not forms of the same thing.

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/2-matter.htm

That page explains the relationship between matter and energy.

Well, that IS WHAT THE BOOK SAID. Did you see where I quoted that? I am not debating that DD was wrong, but GIVEN THE INFORMATION SHE READ, she was correct. The teacher was right, DD was wrong, I get it . . .but obviously she said this based on a book she read where it CLEARLY stated that they ARE FORMS OF THE SAME THING.

Sorry for yelling, but I am really getting sick of this thread!

ETA: My good friend's DH is a physicist. I will have him explain it to DD!

HEre is a web page where it actually says that matter and energy are the same thing-- not even forms of the same thing, but IDENTICAL. I know nothing, nothing about science, so my point is not to debate it, only that it seems this is a widely either debated or misunderstood topic, with a lot of misinformation out there.

http://www.1728.com/einstein.htm

[Oriole]

I think your daughter might enjoy subscription to KidsDiscover magazine.

You can also find used ones on e-bay, some people will sell lots of 12-40 magazines at a time.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Phantaja

But...she was wrong.

She wasn't "wrong" though, or more accurately she might not be wrong.

Eepster- Gen ed 2nd grade teachers still have to take chemistry and first year physics.

I realize this, what I am saying is that having taken a basic physics class does not give one enough understanding of the issue to really get why the OPs DD wasn't wrong.

Furthermore, what's wrong with second grade science being taught to second graders? A theoretical physicist with a "deeper understanding" won't have much in common with a second grader. S/he'll confuse her.

The OPs DD has shown an interest in science that goes beyond the teachers understanding, having the teacher explain it as an authority only serves to keep the child from thinking about it.

Originally Posted by choli

But that is not what she told the teacher per the OP.

Instead of trying to prove the point with the teacher, it might be better to teach your DD that it's fine to get the answer wrong, the important thing is to participate in the class. Like all kids, she is going to have plenty of wrong answers as well as right answers during her school life and will need to be able to deal with and learn from it.

Why should she learn to just accept being "corrected" when she brings a complex problem the teacher doesn't understand up.

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

This. Really, I would be so much more concerned with the big picture here. Not to be dismissive, but really, why is the actually matter/energy question that important. What IS important is that your daughter was already uncomfortable answering in class and feels like, when she did, she was publicly humiliated -- whether or not she was or that was the teacher's intent, that was how she felt. I think you need to meet with the teacher to talk about your child's overall comfort/confidence in the classroom, but let the science question go.

The reason it's important to not let the science question go is found by looking at how few American youth go on to pursue science in higher education.

Really science is about questions not answers.

[Ruthla]

Oh, man, it's taken so much mass to read this thread!

Oops, no, it's taken a lot of ENERGY to read this thread.

The issue here isn't really the scientific question, the issue is that DD felt bad in class and may now feel discouraged from participating in the future. That's the issue that needs to be addressed. A face-to-face meeting with the teacher is probably in order if DD still feels bad about this situation in a few days.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

The teacher was right, DD was wrong, I get it . . .

Actually there are theoretical physicists who are currently investigating the possibility that your DD is correct. Please, don't let her think that she was wrong. The best answer that you could possibly give her is "nobody knows for sure yet."

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by eepster

She wasn't "wrong" though, or more accurately she might not be wrong.

This is not addressed to the OP

I am fascinated by science, and I do know a thing or two about it.
From your post, eepster, I understand that you feel science is important, and that questioning is never wrong.

I just wanted to point out that it is a black and white issue: energy does not equal matter, energy is not made up of atoms, and energy cannot be measure in the same way as matter can.

So if the student is wrong, the teacher should politely correct the student. There is nothing horrible in saying "you are wrong, energy is not the same as matter, nor is it another form of the same thing".

I find it sad to be speculating on how uneducated and proud the teacher is, while in fact she simply corrected a mistake a student made. I'll gladly defend student's right to be corrected in a respectful manner, but science is very precise... and the teacher had correct information in this case.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by lisac77

First of all, the DD was wrong. W-R-O-N-G wrong. There's no two ways about it. So the teacher was correct in telling her she was wrong, if that actually happened, which I'm not convinced it is. My impression of the teacher was that she said, "Well, almost!" NOT "You're WRONG!"
.

The Op has been very clear. The DD has said her teacher said she was "wrong".

YK - the teacher missed a valuable learning opportunity. She missed the opportunity for a great discussion on matter and energy, missed the moment to nurture the love of science and participation of a child who is feeling a little nervous, and missed the opportunity to point out that books occasionally get things wrong.

So I think the teacher was WRONG in her behaviour. There, I said it

It is Ok to correct a child - but (if it went down the way her DD said it went down) - the teacher did it incorrectly and insensitively.

kathy

[lisac77]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

Well, that IS WHAT THE BOOK SAID. Did you see where I quoted that? I am not debating that DD was wrong, but GIVEN THE INFORMATION SHE READ, she was correct. The teacher was right, DD was wrong, I get it . . .but obviously she said this based on a book she read where it CLEARLY stated that they ARE FORMS OF THE SAME THING.

Sorry for yelling, but I am really getting sick of this thread!

ETA: My good friend's DH is a physicist. I will have him explain it to DD!

HEre is a web page where it actually says that matter and energy are the same thing-- not even forms of the same thing, but IDENTICAL. I know nothing, nothing about science, so my point is not to debate it, only that it seems this is a widely either debated or misunderstood topic, with a lot of misinformation out there.

http://www.1728.com/einstein.htm

That webpage is wrong.

Brief notes about matter and energy for a quick reference:
1) All matter in the universe (in the ordinary world) is made of small ether units and which are in a highly compressed state. I call it "Ether Magnetic Particles" or space matter. Also, the spaces between the celestial bodies in the universe are filled with space matter [The 90% 'unknown matter' in the universe is space matter.]

2) All form of energy (except gravitational potential energy) are stored in the ordinary world, in the form of highly compressed space matter (just like as a compressed spring).

3) All form of energy are released in the ordinary world, because of the decompressing, releasing or expansion of space matter (just like as a decompressing or releasing of a spring).

4) Mass and energy are not interchangeable: Releasing of energy in a nuclear reaction is due to the rapid- huge increasing of volume of ordinary matter to space matter. I.e. the missing matter (mass defect) in a nuclear reaction is converted into space matter.

Increasing of Volume = Mass disappeared / Density of space matter (V=M/D).

http://physics-edu.org/index.html

Look, this is a complex subject, there's no two ways about it. But I think you should focus on the fact that:

A) This is SECOND GRADE.
B) Your DD has a weak understanding of this subject (as do many adults, there's nothing wrong with that!), and her teacher is not a theoretical physicist. The teacher was trying to teach the unit.
C) Books are not always right.
D) Neither are webpages. Best to check your references in multiple, reputable sources (and yes, I realize I haven't done this here!).

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by eepster

The reason it's important to not let the science question go is found by looking at how few American youth go on to pursue science in higher education.

But the science question should *not* be the main point of this thread. The child in question is 6. Her interest in science should be encouraged. Her participation in class should be encouraged. Whether she was right or wrong does not matter (for purposes of this discussion) -- the teacher should have handled the situation better so as not to discourage the child. She should have corrected the child in a more empathetic way. She could have explained where the child had gone wrong in a way that moved the class forward, if she actually knew the answer.

Shooting down a child in front of the class is going to *help* her decide to pursue a career in science??? I highly doubt it. Seeing their classmate shot down isn't going to do much to encourage her classmates to study science either. The teacher's response is only going to facilitate "science is hard and scary", exactly the opposite of what we all want.

[Oriole]

I am worried a bit about hijacking the thread.. Maybe another one is called for? For everyone interested in physics?
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