who originally decided that eatings lots of fruits & veggies was healthy?

[caedmyn]

That recommendation doesn't seem to be a very traditional one IMO. If you look at what the groups Dr. Price studied ate, most didn't eat much in the way of fruits & veggies unless it was something like potatoes or corn as a starchy staple. Grains are more nutritious per serving than virtually all veggies, and fruits generally aren't particularly nutritious, and so are protein foods and, of course, legumes. So...where did the recommendations to eat tons of fruits & vegetables originally come from?

[Ianthe]

fruits and veggies contain lots of essential vitamins and minerals that you can't get a lot of from just meat, dairy, beans, grains.

[Leilalu]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

That recommendation doesn't seem to be a very traditional one IMO. If you look at what the groups Dr. Price studied ate, most didn't eat much in the way of fruits & veggies unless it was something like potatoes or corn as a starchy staple. Grains are more nutritious per serving than virtually all veggies, and fruits generally aren't particularly nutritious, and so are protein foods and, of course, legumes. So...where did the recommendations to eat tons of fruits & vegetables originally come from?

: you got me.

I agree, and I have been pondering this to. I gravitate away from too many fruits/veggies naturally. I do eat a lot, but I feel ok when I have periods where I don't eat as many. I also wonder how people would really eat were supermarkets and year round availability for veggies not an option. And if people ate more seasonally and locally they just wouldn't have those things all the time. There would naturally be a break from everyday fresh fruits/veggies. Or at least different kinds.

[guestmama9904]

i too am skeptical of the 5 a day thing and the general concept of forcing kids especially to eat lots of fruits and vegetables. there's a great chapter in FMF on meat that talks about how traditional societys got essential vitamins into their families diets by drinking milk from grassfed cows and other pastured animal products. my grandparents were eastern european jews and i rarely remember my grandmother serving many vegetables with her rich and traditional meals. mostly she served food made from nutrient rich meats like liver, toungue ect and lots olf cream and butter. of course she used some vegetables in her dishes and made a killer cream of asparagus soup but generally meals were heavy on meat and carbs and dairy. she and my granfather lives in to their 80s and were healthy and happy and never suffered any major illnesses or diseases until close to their passing.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by LizzyQ

fruits and veggies contain lots of essential vitamins and minerals that you can't get a lot of from just meat, dairy, beans, grains.

Like what? I know that's the common perception, but I've written out nutrient comparisons using the USDA's nutrition database, and as far as I can tell, they don't. Granted, I didn't write down every vegetable or every fruit, but in general, it certainly appeared to me that grains, legumes, meat, and dairy are superior nutrition sources.

[Ianthe]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Like what? I know that's the common perception, but I've written out nutrient comparisons using the USDA's nutrition database, and as far as I can tell, they don't. Granted, I didn't write down every vegetable or every fruit, but in general, it certainly appeared to me that grains, legumes, meat, and dairy are superior nutrition sources.

Sorry.. I lurked in here, and posted before thinking.. I don't really know much about TF/Price, so please excuse my intrusion.

[Attached Mama]

What about phytochemicals? They aren't in meat, dairy and grains. Things like lycopene and all the other phytochemicals.

I personally need fruits and veggies. The only time in my life I've ever been constipated is on a TF diet if I am ignoring the fruits and veggies.

I doubt traditional foods would have included 5-9 per day - and anyone eating the recommended TF amounts of protein and fat won't have room for 9 a day probably, maybe 5 tho. (the recommendation is actually 5-9 servings).

But TF would have included a lot of fermented veggies wherein the nutrients are made even more available than in normal veggies. Plus, like a pp said, dairy from grassfed cows would have passed on a lot of the nutrients.

I think teas would have been drunk in the winter, and in the spring, most societies sought out the new tender greens local to them to eat.

Add to all that the fact that our soil is so incredibly depleted that veggies even 70 yrs ago had many times the nutrients of those we eat today, and I don't think we should be ignoring them.

That being said, I don't believe children digest them well til around 2 yrs old. My mom read this someplace and it is true in my experience - they go in one end and look the same coming out the other. Nothing but empty calories by and large. Interestingly enough, my dd started to eat them around 2 yrs old of her own choice. She did love fruit prior to then tho.

[snowbunny]

I know that when ice men and bog bodies that are thousands of years old have been autopsied and their stomach contents have been examined, those contents usually indicate that the ancient peoples at an enormous variety of plant foods, meat and some form of ancient grain like einkorn.

That's traditional enough for me!

[tinuviel_k]

The fact that we even have so many varieties of fruits and vegetables points to the fact that people ate them traditionally.

Take corn, for example. Corn started out quite small, more like a grass seed. Over thousands and thousands of years the people who consumed it selected for the traits that they wanted, bred those plants, and so on. Corn evolved from a smaller seed plant into what it is today: large, robust, with varieties for eating fresh, drying, and grinding.

Now look at the thousands of varieties of fruits and vegetables in existence, all over the world. Almost any culture supported by agriculture with an agreeable climate has grown produce of various kinds. Cultures helped to select for and grow all of this produce for the last 10,000 years, changing edible wild plants into cultivated produce over a vast period of time. The fact that we have so many different kinds of produce proves that people have been growing and eating it throughout history.
Apples, for example, have thousands and thousands of different kinds alone: that didn't happen in the past couple hundred years. It took time, patience, and untold generations of people who were interested in eating and growing them.
Even non-agriculture cultures eat produce such as wild fruits, edible plants, and so on.

Now, I don't know if the whole "five a day" is traditional, per say. I would think that in the growing season people would naturally partake in large amounts of the abundant available food, eating maybe even more than five servings, taking advantage of the short time it was fresh and growing before the season turned. But after the season was over and people relyed on dried, fermented, and stored veggies...probably not so much.

[quietserena]

I'd like to point out that serving sizes for five a day are really small so it's actually not that hard to get a few servings in. Grapes for example, a serving size is 1/2 cup. So, if you're going to make greens of some sort to go with dinner and maybe an apple, there's your five a day. Oh, and a slice of pumpkin pie. How's that for justifying dessert? hee.

I'm more skeptical of lumping in fruits along with vegetables. I can't quite explain it but doesn't it seem like fruits used to be what sugary sweets are to us? Just another way to get sugar in?

I need to think more on this.

[Leilalu]

Well I guess what I find troubling is the way people tend to substitute veggies and fruits for fats...

[guestmama9904]

on the whole fiber/constipation conundrum- i was horribly constipated most of my earlier pregnancy, which in part might have been due to hormonal changes, but may also be related to how little dairy, meat and fat i was eating. i had something like hyperemisis (lost 12 lbs the first 10 weeks from the vomitting) and could only eat fruits and veggies, almost no protien and almost no fat. now to be a bit tmi my bowels work great, i never feel contipated and i consume a lot of dairy, butter, meat, and whole soaked grains. so for my body a diet high in fibrous plant food does not do the trick.

[Attached Mama]

Originally Posted by arismama!

on the whole fiber/constipation conundrum- i was horribly constipated most of my earlier pregnancy, which in part might have been due to hormonal changes, but may also be related to how little dairy, meat and fat i was eating. i had something like hyperemisis (lost 12 lbs the first 10 weeks from the vomitting) and could only eat fruits and veggies, almost no protien and almost no fat. now to be a bit tmi my bowels work great, i never feel contipated and i consume a lot of dairy, butter, meat, and whole soaked grains. so for my body a diet high in fibrous plant food does not do the trick.

depends on the person I guess.... Like I said, for me the only time in my 30+ years that I've ever been constipated is when I started eating lots of fat and protein on a TF diet and was not eating all the fruits and veggies I've always eaten.

[Gale Force]

I wonder if it's that people didn't eat them or if Price didn't really focus on them in his study. They are less nutrient dense by weight, but are more so by calorie for some nutrients.

I feel healthiest in late summer when I am eating tons of produce from my garden, along with my meats and other foods.

[mamadelbosque]

I think traditionally, people gorged themselves in the spring/summer/fall on fresh fruits & veggies, and preserved what they could (drying for example) for the winter, but basicly over the winter subsisted on meat, grains, dairy, etc, and then re-gorged themselves in the spring d coming back up and being available again.

Since we don't have that cycle of gorging and abstaining anymore, we recommend a "5 a day" to average it all out. But thats just my opinion.

[leila1213]

Originally Posted by arismama!

on the whole fiber/constipation conundrum- i was horribly constipated most of my earlier pregnancy, which in part might have been due to hormonal changes, but may also be related to how little dairy, meat and fat i was eating. i had something like hyperemisis (lost 12 lbs the first 10 weeks from the vomitting) and could only eat fruits and veggies, almost no protien and almost no fat. now to be a bit tmi my bowels work great, i never feel contipated and i consume a lot of dairy, butter, meat, and whole soaked grains. so for my body a diet high in fibrous plant food does not do the trick.

See www.fibermenace.com for confirmation of your instincts/experience.

[jiva]

Veg lurker here (don't hit me!), but I kinda feel like we need more fruits/veggies than ever simply for the antioxidant protection in such a toxic environment. I know that pastured dairy is full of carotenoids, but sweet potatoes still have more, ya know (but yes, a slab of butter makes it even better, doesn't it? I think every little bite counts more than ever since our bodies are dealing with a toxic load like never before and while the protein/fat-rich foods build and maintain our bodies, the antioxidant foods protect/detox them.

jiva

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

I wonder if it's that people didn't eat them or if Price didn't really focus on them in his study. They are less nutrient dense by weight, but are more so by calorie for some nutrients.

I feel healthiest in late summer when I am eating tons of produce from my garden, along with my meats and other foods.

I wonder myself if Price ddin't focus on plant foods much. I just read the Blue Zone, and it studies diets of those that live over 100 yrs old. Those people all ate lots of fruits and veggies, and of course good dairy, meat, nuts, whole grains, and legumes. That book is an excellent read, and goes into how to live past 100.

[Dillpicklechip]

Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1

I wonder myself if Price ddin't focus on plant foods much. I just read the Blue Zone, and it studies diets of those that live over 100 yrs old. Those people all ate lots of fruits and veggies, and of course good dairy, meat, nuts, whole grains, and legumes. That book is an excellent read, and goes into how to live past 100.

My grandmother is 90 and still growing strong, and her diet is probably two thirds fruits and vegetables. She has fruit with granola for breakfast, a salad with cheese for lunch, some veggies for supper with a bit of meat...it works for her at least!

Also I read an article on Yahoo yesterday about the oldest man in the world currently...he lives in Japan. He just turned 113 and the article stated that "his diet is mostly vegetables."

Those are only two examples, but I just thought I'd throw them out there.

[LoMaH]

Sorry, I don't have the answer to the original question.

However, I hope that I’m being helpful by providing some links and excerpts to clarify the common misconception that Dr. Price advocated a high protein, low carb diet, excluding fruit and vegetables... which he didn’t.

Following are some very informative articles that shed light to how Dr. Price took the knowledge that he gained from studying groups of people abroad and applied it to help, particularly children with dental decay back home.
----------------------------
"Interpreting the Work of Dr. Price"
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...ght_price.html

**Another common misconception about the diet Price recommended is that it was a low-carb diet. Price frequently warned against high-carbohydrate refined foods such as sugar and white flour, but he did not advise his patients to avoid high-carb foods like fruits, whole grains or root vegetables. These he considered an important adjunct to the diet. He was particularly enamored of poi, the fermented taro preparation of the South Sea Islanders.
"There is no objection to having the children fill up on bulky foods such as potatoes and vegetables, if the daily mineral and vitamin requirements have been satisfied first," he advised his nieces and nephews.
Nevertheless, it is probably easier for westerners to obtain high levels of nutrients from a diet in which carbs are minimized. But that does not mean one should overdo on protein. Price did not advocate a high-protein diet. "The protein requirement can be provided each day in one egg or a piece of meat equivalent to the bulk of one egg a day," was his Depression-era advice. The best protein foods, according to Price, are nutrient-dense organ meats, shellfish and small oily fish such as anchovies or sardines, eaten with the bones. In addition, he recommended one quart of whole milk per day for children, to ensure adequate minerals and fat-soluble activators.
----------------------------------------------------
“Letter to Nieces and Nephews”
http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/ppnf/Art...riceLetter.htm

***It is not wise to fill the limited space with foods that are not doing our bodies any particular good. You would be interested to know that while you would have to eat 7 ½ pounds of potatoes or 11 pounds of beets or 9 ½ pounds of carrots to get the daily phosphorus requirement, all of which would provide too high a number of calories, you would obtain as much phosphorus from 1 pound of lentils. This would also provide the calcium. You would also supply the entire day’s requirement of minerals from 0.8 pounds of fish or 0.6 pounds of cheese. [Raw] milk is one of the best, if not the best single food, since you obtain the minerals rapidly in proportion to the calories. The main thing is to get the daily phosphorus and calcium requirements and sufficient of the vitamins, particularly fat-soluble vitamins.
There is a misapprehension regarding the value of fruits as food. Of course, fruits are desirable as an adjunct, but most of them are very low in minerals. You would, for example, have to eat 37 pounds of apples a day or 26 pounds of oranges to get your two grams of phosphorus and when these fruits are sweetened into jams or jellies, you would have to eat 32 pounds of orange marmalade a day, which would provide 33,000 calories; few of us could take care of more than 3000 calories. You would also have to take over 30,000 calories of honey to get your two grams of phosphorus, for which you would need to eat 28 pounds per day. Similarly, you would have to eat 34 pounds of maple syrup which would provide 85,000 calories. Among the poorest foods we could feed children would be white bread and jam or pancakes with maple syrup or similar combinations, and these are no better for adults than they are for children, for we all have the same problems except that the stress is greater during periods of rapid growth.
The basic foods should be the entire grains such as whole wheat, rye or oats, whole wheat and rye breads, wheat and oat cereals, oat-cake, dairy products, including milk and cheese, which should be used liberally, and marine foods. All marine or sea foods, both fresh and salt water, are high in minerals and constitute one of the very best foods you could eat. Canned fish such as sardines, tuna or salmon are all excellent; also the fresh seafood such as oysters, halibut, haddock, etc. The protein requirement can be provided each day in one egg or a piece of meat equivalent to the bulk of one egg a day. The meals can be amply modified and varied with vegetables, raw and cooked, the best of the cooked vegetables being lentils used as a soup. The cooked vegetables are cauliflower, brussels sprouts, asparagus tips and celery. Lettuce is the best of the raw vegetables.
-------------------------------------------------------------
“Nutrition and Physical Degeneration”
http://www.gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200251h.html#ch15

Finally, In Chapter 16, there’s a case about a group of children suffering from dental decay who were brought to a mission where they were fed a "reinforced meal", once a day for 6 days a week for several months.
The meals are balanced with foods from various food groups..... you can read for yourself that it was NOT a high protein, low carb, high fat, no fruit, no vegetable diet that he recommended.

*** The nutrition provided these children in this one meal included the following foods. About four ounces of tomato juice or orange juice and a teaspoonful of a mixture of equal parts of a very high vitamin natural cod liver oil and an especially high vitamin butter was given at the beginning of the meal. They then received a bowl containing approximately a pint of a very rich vegetable and meat stew, made largely from bone marrow and fine cuts of tender meat: the meat was usually broiled separately to retain its juice and then chopped very fine and added to the bone marrow meat soup which always contained finely chopped vegetables and plenty of very yellow carrots; for the next course they had cooked fruit, with very little sweetening, and rolls made from freshly ground whole wheat, which were spread with the high-vitamin butter. The wheat for the rolls was ground fresh every day in a motor driven coffee mill. Each child was also given two glasses of fresh whole milk. The menu was varied from day to day by substituting for the meat stew, fish chowder or organs of animals...
<snip>
...It is obvious that this one meal a day plus the other two meals at home provided a real factor of safety. Clinically this program completely controlled the dental caries of each member of the group.