I think Raw Milk made my family sick

[avendesora]

What would you do?

We have been buying from a state-certified organic grassfed raw milk dairy for over a year. We've been happy so far. They're an hour away, but we're part of a sizable group that does the pickups.

Starting two weeks ago, my family got sick. The kids had high fevers (103.6) for one night and diarrhea for a week. I had stomach cramps for one night. DH was sick for three days. I thought we just had some bug that was going around. I heard on the news that some other people in the area had gotten sick, who happen to drink raw milk, and the state pulled the dairy's raw certification. The dairy and the state tested the milk, and the results came back clean, twice. The state has not given the certification back yet.

So, clean results. I figured we must have just gotten some bug. I hadn't even thought about the milk, and the family had continued to have it (in small amounts - being sick, we weren't eating much of anything) during the whole week.

Then I heard that all but one family in our raw milk pickup group had also been hit with the same symptoms, right at the same time as us. And I don't know of anyone in our town who got sick who doens't drink raw milk from this dairy.

My family is well now. And the dairy is sending out emails about how they've gotten clean test results and that they've never had a negative test result ever, and that they're frustrated with the state, blah blah. I get why they can't announce that maybe there was a mistake but it's been cleaned up now, but part of me wishes that they would ownthis, kwim? One accident isn't enough to make me give up on raw milk, but I do wonder about the regularity of their testing.

Would you continue to buy raw milk from this farm? If not, would you rather give up on milk altogether, or would you buy organic pasteurized milk from the grocery store?

Sorry to be so long. But this has been so perplexing to me. I really love the concept of grassfed raw milk, and I want to believe that this dairy is fine, and that it was all just a coincidence. But it just doesn't feel like a coincidence.

thanks,
Aven

[gabella06]

We get raw milk from grassfed cows and I've given a lot of thought to what I would do if there appeared to be a problem. The conclusion I've come to is that if the dairy is doing all the right things, and I'm still leery, I would continue to purchase their milk. However, I would boil it for five minutes before consuming.

I believe that there would still be value in the grassfed nature of the milk, it would not be UHT pasturized (which is what most of the organic grocery store milk is near me), and I would still be directly supporting the farmer.

It's so hard to to determine where illness comes from (think of the tomatoes this summer), and why some people get sick and not others. I'm sorry you are struggling with this.

[Pinky Tuscadero]

I would continue to buy from the farm. I don't see a minor illness as a reason to stop consuming a food. These things happen with foods of this nature. Any fresh, perishable food is going to carry of risk of occasional contamination. We have all come to expect sterile foods and get so upset when something makes us sick. I don't think it's a really big deal.

[vioburn]

It's also possible that, since this is a "group" that buys milk together, it was a bug that was passed on from member to member. I know that's a longshot, but it could be possible.

[EmeraldGardener]

Not to be too nosy, but most folks who are into raw milk might also be buying their produce/food stuffs at the same places that you do, and it might not be totally related to just the raw milk. Plus once some one gets a bug it can be passed from person to person like a virus. (not all bugs but some) I would wonder if they all shopped at the same place or if only the raw milk was the common link-- some "un-named" persons/companys might wish to discredit raw milk to push their agenda of Government control of food stuffs. JMO

[rhiandmoi]

If it were me, I would not use this dairy again. In the spirit of full disclosure though, I work in agricultural food safety and am much more paranoid than the average person about food borne illness. Three are some very small risks of contracting life altering (Guillain-Barré ) or possibly fatal (Hemelyitc Uremia Syndrome) complications from some of the more serious food borne pathogens associated with raw milk. I am very surprised that with as many people reporting similar symptoms and all consuming the same raw milk that they would not want to test some of the milk that was purchased, and not just the milk that was still at the dairy.

As for food not being sterile, most of the organisms that cause food borne illness are associated with fecal contamination of the food product. Vegetables that are grown out in the open environment, and are exposed to animals, insects and weather still in most cases will not have fecal contamination. Milk collected in a sanitary dairy sure as heck shouldn't.

But, since they haven't actually been shown to have had pathogenic bacteria in the milk, if the state reissues their raw milk certificate, I might continue to purchase the milk, but to boil it as a pp stated.

[Jojo F.]

At the farm we get our milk from the milk is in a cooler that EVERYONE has to touch to open. Maybe someone was sick and passed on their germs to the cooler? (providing it's somewhat the same setup as ours).

For me, if they have been tested twice and everything is clean I'd still buy from the farm.

People have gotten sick from buying tomatoes from a large grocery store chain and I'm sure they still buy tomatoes and probably even from the same store

[Gale Force]

Aven,

I am very glad to hear that you all have recovered and I am sorry for a miserable week.

It doesn't sound like a coincidence to me either. It could be, but it seems extremely unlikely. There were others sick (probably outside your group?) who were tested and lived in a few different counties, a couple in a different state (not that it means as much in PA as say here in Calif). There are a lot of reasons it may not have been isolated in the milk -- a key reason is that the cows may not be shedding it in their stools right now.

I know when the outbreaks happen the larger community wants to blame regulators for being trigger happy, but we all need to face the fact that there is some non-zero probability of contamination of any milk, regardless of the practices of the farmer. Practices will make a difference as well but given the nature of the business (milking teats with fecal residues), contamination happens. What we all need to look at is whether the risk is worth the benefit. The risk appears to be pretty small so I still do plan to drink raw milk myself. (I don't have a trust-worthy source now and I'm pregnant, so I'm on the wagon.)

I do love raw milk and feel that I get a great benefit from it, but we do ferment foods regularly. I get diverse cultures in my diet. For now, that will have to do.

Sorry to be a downer.

Amanda

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by gabella06

We get raw milk from grassfed cows and I've given a lot of thought to what I would do if there appeared to be a problem. The conclusion I've come to is that if the dairy is doing all the right things, and I'm still leery, I would continue to purchase their milk. However, I would boil it for five minutes before consuming.

Gabella,

Just in an effort to save you some bucks and time, you're probably better off with UHT milk than at-home boiling for five minutes. The UHT processing is a high heat but it's just for a few seconds and cooled down immediately. Both temperature and time matter in nutrient loss. Just a thought.

Heck I don't know what milk to buy anymore. I used to buy Horizon but found out they were sourcing from a confinement dairy with thousands of cows. Then I discovered that Organic Pastures was sourcing from that same confinement dairy. In any case, I expect I should find out where that confinement dairy is selling now and buy there -- CostCo Kirkland??

Amanda

[mrsbernstein]

I must admit that I would keep buying from the dairy.

If they have tested clean...I would give them the benefit of the doubt...

HOWEVER, I would also take visits to teh farm a few times per year. You know...just to see how things are run.

We purchase milk from 2 sources: 1 for cow and 1 for goat. Both families are personal friends (1 famiy are BFFs)...the other we used to go to church with. I have milked animals on both farms. Sure, the farms are NOT spick-and-span...BUT, the are clean in regards to how the milk is handled.

Go with your gut. TBH, I can't bring myself to purchase store-bought milk.

Mrs B

[gabella06]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

Gabella,

Just in an effort to save you some bucks and time, you're probably better off with UHT milk than at-home boiling for five minutes. The UHT processing is a high heat but it's just for a few seconds and cooled down immediately. Both temperature and time matter in nutrient loss. Just a thought.

Heck I don't know what milk to buy anymore. I used to buy Horizon but found out they were sourcing from a confinement dairy with thousands of cows. Then I discovered that Organic Pastures was sourcing from that same confinement dairy. In any case, I expect I should find out where that confinement dairy is selling now and buy there -- CostCo Kirkland?? Amanda

Exactly why I would continue to buy from the farm and just boil the milk. I would know where it's coming from. If I have no issues with the farm, that is. And, I've tried UHT milk and it tastes burnt to me. When I get my hands on VAT pasturized milk, it's much closer to raw in taste. Also, I like being able to directly support a farmer.

And, perhaps I don't need to boil it for 5 minutes. I would have to look into that further, I suppose. I also know it's what my family did in Austria when my mother was young and my mom still talks about how much better that milk was compared to what you buy in the stores now.

Nothing is perfect or easy is it?

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by gabella06

Nothing is perfect or easy is it?

Wouldn't that be nice.

Perhaps get a kitchen thermometer (maybe even with an alarm) so you can check the temperature of the milk. Bringing it to a boil should be enough. The trick for me would be catching it in time.

[Bensmommy]

I'd still buy the raw, but try to actually talk to the farmer about your concerns and truly get his/her take on the situation. It is very possible that the milk itself wasn't the culprit, but someone handling the jugs could have poor hygiene and gotten the jugs "sick". Many bacteria and viruses can (and do) live outside the body on objects at varying temperatures. If one helper loaded the main cooler, or took jugs off the filling tank, etc it could have spread the buggies.

I would really talk to the farmer about it, though. Maybe ask about the other workers at the farm and what the standard of hygiene (handwashing, etc) is. I agree with the PP, our food is not sterile and as much as getting sick s*cks (I had food poisoning about a month ago) it happens to everyone (even those that drink pasteurized milk).

$.02

[gabella06]

Originally Posted by Gale Force

Wouldn't that be nice.

Perhaps get a kitchen thermometer (maybe even with an alarm) so you can check the temperature of the milk. Bringing it to a boil should be enough. The trick for me would be catching it in time.

Yes, that would be hard for me, too. I struggle with that when I make yogurt even while standing right there!

[leila1213]

Originally Posted by Bensmommy

I'd still buy the raw, but try to actually talk to the farmer about your concerns and truly get his/her take on the situation. It is very possible that the milk itself wasn't the culprit, but someone handling the jugs could have poor hygiene and gotten the jugs "sick". Many bacteria and viruses can (and do) live outside the body on objects at varying temperatures. If one helper loaded the main cooler, or took jugs off the filling tank, etc it could have spread the buggies.

I would really talk to the farmer about it, though. Maybe ask about the other workers at the farm and what the standard of hygiene (handwashing, etc) is. I agree with the PP, our food is not sterile and as much as getting sick s*cks (I had food poisoning about a month ago) it happens to everyone (even those that drink pasteurized milk).

$.02

This is what I have heard from my WAPF leader. Supposedly, it would be near impossible for the milk to become tainted/contaminated prior to being handled. It is hygiene that is the problem. Same thing with the spinach a couple years ago, and maybe the tomatoes, though I didn't pay as much attention to that one. I second the idea of checking out the farm on a regular basis to see if you are comfortable with it. And, why not check out other farms so you can compare?

[Ruthla]

This was my thought as well.

Originally Posted by vioburn

It's also possible that, since this is a "group" that buys milk together, it was a bug that was passed on from member to member. I know that's a longshot, but it could be possible.

[slsurface]

Originally Posted by mrsbernstein

I must admit that I would keep buying from the dairy.

If they have tested clean...I would give them the benefit of the doubt...

HOWEVER, I would also take visits to teh farm a few times per year. You know...just to see how things are run.

We purchase milk from 2 sources: 1 for cow and 1 for goat. Both families are personal friends (1 famiy are BFFs)...the other we used to go to church with. I have milked animals on both farms. Sure, the farms are NOT spick-and-span...BUT, the are clean in regards to how the milk is handled.

Go with your gut. TBH, I can't bring myself to purchase store-bought milk.

Mrs B

This is my thought as well. But like mrsbernstein, I buy our milk from a friend and I know her farm well. Good luck with your decision.

[Staciemao]

I also initially thought "virus". But if you are concerned (and it sounds like you are) take a trip out to the farm and watch them milk.

I will admit, that as a goat owner I am prejudiced. BUT FWIW, goats have a much much much lower bacterial load than cows. And it is a heck of a lot easier to have sanitary milking practices with goats too.

Just my opinion.

[bri276]

I wouldn't drink any milk at all if I had diarrhea...not a good combo...

I don't know. If it bothered me, even if it was just psychological and I knew I was irrationally grossed out by the milk, I'd go elsewhere.

I wouldn't boil milk, though... you can pastuerize it at home by bringing it to 165 for 30 seconds. (or 140 for 30 min but who has time to stand at the stove that long)

[Gale Force]

Originally Posted by leila1213

This is what I have heard from my WAPF leader. Supposedly, it would be near impossible for the milk to become tainted/contaminated prior to being handled. It is hygiene that is the problem.

That's true. Inside the udder of a healthy cow is a clean place. It's getting the milk out of the cow that's the problem. They sleep on their udders and sleep in their own excrement. This is why goats are cleaner -- they sleep in it too, but theirs is in pellet form. Again, the risk isn't high if the farm is clean, but it's still a risk. The risk seems to be higher in the late summer when the cows have been stressed from the heat.

We may never know for sure in this PA case. Tracking pathogens is too complicated to get a good picture in most cases.