s/o Scientific research and discipline

[Think of Winter]

This is a spin off thread from the Alfie Kohn / SuperN discussion. I was curious about whether other parents value scientific research as a tool for making parenting decisions, specifically for discipline. A lot of anti-UP posts seem to be dismissive of research, at least as a tool for planning how you discipline.

I am a huge fan of scientific research myself. In fact, what initially drew me to Mothering Magazine (apart from the beautiful pictures) and AP in general is the overwhelming volume of research demonstrating the positive, long-term and short-term effects. Everything from co sleeping, baby wearing, bfing, vaxing, and certainly gd. On the other hand, I have yet to see reference to an unbiased research study that supports the use of cio, spanking, ff, etc.

This is my opinion, but it seems to me that a lot of the more "mainstream" approaches, like cio, and even punishment, are defended or supported with a whole lot more "it's common sense" and I'd go so far as to say a fear-based approach to parenting. Like "if you don't do X, your kids will never Y."

So, do you value research? If you don't, why not? Is it the scientific method itself?

If you do value research, and use punishment, is there research available that shows why punishment is better?

[sapphire_chan]

I value research and it tends to agree with what I've decided is "just common sense" like holding babies and feeding them when they're hungry and treating children as people.

[Shannie77]

Cool thread!

I discovered AP, UP, child-led weaning and all that good stuff through researching. All the research I have done has led me to the parenting decisions I have made. Sometimes there are conflicting reports and when that happens I tend to just take the most natural approach or do what feels right. If I hadn't researched I probably would of taken a much more mainstream approach.

I would research a new car, home, even a computer or TV, so it makes sense to research and read up on parenting.

[tubulidentata2]

I agree with previous posters. Scientific research led me to make most of the parenting decisions we have made, although I suppose I haven't seen a lot of research on gentle discipline (I'm not saying it isn't out there - I just haven't looked). When there is conflicting research, I try to go with what seems more natural.

As for gentle discipline, I guess all of the other decisions we made (breastfeeding on cue, co-sleeping, babywearing, refusing to let her CIO, etc.) attached us to the point that any other discipline style seems completely inappropriate.

[popsicle sticks]

After personal theory-type research about AP and GD, the concepts just seemed to make sense to me without scientific backing, so I tried them. They felt right, so I continued to use them. Scientific studies on parenting philosophies can be nice to have but I wouldn't trust them over my gut. I don't entirely trust the scientific method.

You can tell what side of my brain is doing most of my thinking.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I am totally in favor of using and studying scientific evidence, as long as it supports what I already believe. If it doesn't support what I believe, it must be a flawed study. Clearly.

[ann_of_loxley]

I do value research, but probably not for my own use. I dont read research and then set out to do something just because of it. For example:
Some of it has been useful to me...like the research done on co-sleeping. I wanted to co sleep, I did co sleep...but was still worried and its sometimes hard to filter out the myths from fact when it comes to stuff like that...so reading the research on it really helped me come to peace with it in the sense that I knew I was not going to smother my baby to death.
I do read a lot of books though that are loaded with research. But to tell you the truth, I would still read them and agree with them if the research was not there! I like to read them because they usually confirm what I am already thinking and I find them refreshing because I live in a world where there are not many people who 'parent' the way I do and it can be lonely - so my books sometimes offer me a bit of company. They can also help me when I get a bit stuck - am encountered with something I have never faced before and need some guidance...like how I got stuck when it came to tantrums! Sometimes I need a bit of guidance because the world I live in is filled with mainstream advice and sometimes it shard to find the advice that would better suit you. I even like the parenting style lable because if I say CL you all know what I am on about and I can find other like minded parents that can help support me and guide me in times of need - because thats what words are for. They help me know where ti look. So for example; When it came to tantrums, all I ever heard and read was to ignore them but that just did not sit right with me because I was not ignoring my sons needs up to that point...but tantrums were something different and I just did not know what to do for the life of me! So with some research and a lable, I knew were to look for better adivce that would suit me and parental style we choose to go by...otherwise, I think I would have been truely lost! They are also handy to have to loan out to friends who do not parent like me but think they might find the book interresting and find some comfort in the research provided.
But I do value the research and find it handy because, not that I feel I need to explain myself to anyone, sometimes its just nice to be able to share that knowledge to other parents new and old and interrested. For example, the other day I was having a conversation with a friend and she asked if I co slept and I said yes and then she said she recently read something that it is actually a very safe thing to do - so then I could go on and say that yes it was and give her all the facts based on research about co sleeping. She found this very interresting and informative. She doesnt co sleep, but at least she is edcuated about it! lol...
Its also handy to use on-line because thats what people ask for! I used to go no a lot of 'mainstream' forums and thats what they wanted and needed and when such discussion came up. No one wants to hear from a complete stranger 'do X just because' or 'Eh this is what I do and it works for us'... They want to know why. However, when it comes to a heated debate ...it gets rather comfusing! I have noticed it time and time again and it just makes me chuckle now!...It starts out with 'why' - so you insert 'why'. Then its 'prove it'...so you provide information and research that 'proves' it. Then its a disregard and defensivness followed by 'you shouldnt need research, you should just follow your instincts' ... It rarely happens on here because most everyone is at least in the same book, if not on the same page so whilst we may disagree here and there, no one ever really feels you are in-advertantly calling them a 'bad parent' because they do things slightly different than you. But the research can still be handy lol

[allgirls]

Thanks for starting this thread. I'll be back to contribute later. But yeah, I tend to use research to back up what I believe rather than the other way around.

[deditus]

I do really value research in my decision making process. I like to say I make research based decisions and that includes parenting and gentle discipline. Which is why I am sitting here with some tomes on attachment theory that are current college level textbooks (that I am having trouble getting into, a little heavy for me). This is the present and future talk in therapy and education. My aunt, who recently retired from a 40+ year teaching career in special ed, was very well versed in Kohn's books and agrees that it is also the future of teaching.

[kiwiva]

I like research mostly, I think, to support what I am already doing. So if I start to think I'm the only person IRL it's nice to see there is some validation other than my mommy insight for doing it.

It's also very helpful for DH. If I suggest something totally not mainstream but then can come up with research to support it, he finds that very helpful and goes along much more easily.

As others have said, it is also very helpful when suggesting options to others who are more mainstream.

[Think of Winter]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

I am totally in favor of using and studying scientific evidence, as long as it supports what I already believe. If it doesn't support what I believe, it must be a flawed study. Clearly.

laughup Obviously.

I'm kidding too, of course, but there is truth in this sentiment. This is where "instinct" comes in. If something doesn't sound right, I'll look a lot closer. For example, the study that was in the news last year linking circumcision with reduced risk of hiv. My reaction was "why would natural selection (substitute God in this sentence, if you wish) have created a part of our anatomy that makes us more susceptible to illness?"

Someone else metioned that you can find data to support anything if you try hard enough. That's why it's so important to look carefully at how a study is done. This is not easy to do, even if you can get your hands on the primary literature. That's another reason I love Mothering. They do look closely at studies that seem to be contrary to nfl, and in many cases identify where the authors went wrong.

[Think of Winter]

Originally Posted by emgremore

My aunt, who recently retired from a 40+ year teaching career in special ed, was very well versed in Kohn's books and agrees that it is also the future of teaching.

: I would so love to believe that there are positive changes coming for public education.

[Astrogirl]

I value scientific research that has VALID practiced postaudit data. Not just "a study". I have worked in research, I have been published in refereed journals myself, and I know that just because research is published, most of the time it is because it is of interest for further research, NOT because its the end of the line answer.

A quick example of postaudit research would be this (my time is rushed, so I'm refusing to look up actual references):

• Swedish authorities research spanking and other types of physical punishment
  
• Swedish authorities conclude that it is ineffective in long term discipline, and prone to further abuse.
  
• Swedish authorities illegalize spanking.
  
• In a postaudit, both Swedish and external factions follow up and see that the banning of spanking over the years correlated with higher-functioning children on emotional levels, better behaviour in school, decreased family violence and decreased juvenile crime. While not necessarily causational, combined with the research that brough the initial illegalization....well, suffice to say, that's enough for me to say "It all makes sense together".

My emotional counterpart says "this isn't right, it isn't the way to do it". But I do use the logic counterpart derived from research to further that resolve, esp in time when I am feeling emotionally weakened.

[GuildJenn]

I will use research to help me frame my thinking or understanding (to a 4 year old the same amount of milk poured from a short wide glass to a tall thin glass will be more, sort of thing).

I won't use it to go against my underlying philosophy. I'm a big fan of philosophical thinking, which is not the same as research.

I try not to get too wrapped up in outcomes. I cannot predict how my child will turn out in the end, because he is his own person with his own unique challenges and so on and so forth. But I can concentrate on doing what I believe is best in the here and now.

[Astrogirl]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

I try not to get too wrapped up in outcomes. I cannot predict how my child will turn out in the end, because he is his own person with his own unique challenges and so on and so forth. But I can concentrate on doing what I believe is best in the here and now.

That's an excellent point. Sometimes when posting, I think too critically and often "defend" proper research (and obviously, I am always in the habit of defending why we don't spank) - forgetting that when it comes down to the heart of the matter and the heat of the moment, its my child and my gut doing most of the ruling.

[Fuamami]

If you have spent any time in the upper echelons of academia, you should have a healthy skepticism of most "studies" and "research", even if you can find the primary data. In most of the studies I have seen conducted in universities, the coding and data entry and grunt work was all carried out by underpaid grad students who may or may not have a vested interest in the integrity of the research, and may or may not be hungover, high, distracted by the cute grad student next to them, or whatever. I'm speaking from experience here.

I haven't read AK, but I did look through some of his references. I don't punish, but I have to admit that I was not very impressed by a lot of the research he cites. Also, as a former graduate student in Sociology, I think that any research that studies human behavior is inherently flawed. This isn't to say that there is some truth to it, but that it is absolutely impossible to eliminate bias.

And my own gut and experience in this world tells me that our behavior is so complex and influenced by so many things that it is really difficult to pin down one cause-effect relationship.

[tubulidentata2]

Originally Posted by Fuamami

If you have spent any time in the upper echelons of academia, you should have a healthy skepticism of most "studies" and "research", even if you can find the primary data. In most of the studies I have seen conducted in universities, the coding and data entry and grunt work was all carried out by underpaid grad students who may or may not have a vested interest in the integrity of the research, and may or may not be hungover, high, distracted by the cute grad student next to them, or whatever.

I was going to say the same thing, although my experience was as the undergrad researcher, and the professor was MIA half of the time. Very inexperienced undergrads were performing the research. The first time I showed up to help with an experiment (using real people as subjects), the prof. never showed up and I ran the experiment myself. I just winged it. This happened pretty often throughout the study. This is a highly respected clinical psychology professor . . . .

[lolalola]

Originally Posted by tubulidentata2

I was going to say the same thing, although my experience was as the undergrad researcher, and the professor was MIA half of the time. Very inexperienced undergrads were performing the research. The first time I showed up to help with an experiment (using real people as subjects), the prof. never showed up and I ran the experiment myself. I just winged it. This happened pretty often throughout the study. This is a highly respected clinical psychology professor . . . .

So much for the ethics review.

[BaBaBa]

I credit all the research I did during pregnancy for leading me to AP ways.

[IBC Mama]

I am like a lot of posters here who found that the research supported what I already thought, which was helpful. It also helped me sort of expand my thoughts and really think things through, so I guess it that way it has opened doors for me to things I hadn't really thought about before. I read a lot of parenting books and research on childhood and education, and my husband doesn't, and it has led to some conflicts in our parenting styles. I do feel more ready to stick to my guns when I have research supporting my opinion.

My husband's research is more experiential; he sees what other parents do in public and compares it to what we do or to what I have said. I'm happy to report that this usually ends up with him seeing things my way!

I do find it frustrating when schools and other child care professionals are either ignorant or dismissive of research. I am researching elementary schools for DD, who will be ready for kinder next year, and even the schools that claim to be research-based will do things that are not supported by research but are evidently important to parents, like assigning homework in early grades or using rewards systems for behavior or reading.