following the Fellowship, TWO TOWERS begins post 281 - Page 9

[aweynsayl]

anyone else getting a "take the LOTR quiz" ad? google freaks me out.

Originally Posted by Aubergine68

... then dropping him when "he showed no signs of writing a book on the spot".

I also love the song The Man in the Moon, maybe the best of all the songs in LOTR. I was googling to see if I could find a version of it online, but could not. Anyone know of a recording?

i love that line. i should be keeping a journal along with my reading of it! i keep finding new sig files!
i have the complete lotr cd set from the bbc radio broadcast back when... i'll see if it's on it! (remind me if i dont post about it soon!)

Originally Posted by wombatclay

[B] Can I get a wiggle and a w00t?

:::sigh. i feel so comfy and cozy once strider joins us! : i jumped the gun on my question before, so i've nothing else to contribute....

[Aubergine68]

Originally Posted by aweynsayl

anyone else getting a "take the LOTR quiz" ad? google freaks me out.

i have the complete lotr cd set from the bbc radio broadcast back when... i'll see if it's on it! (remind me if i dont post about it soon!)
l

Thanks, please do!

Boy those Black Riders are a lot like Rowling's Dementors, aren't they? That black breath or whatever it is (copy of LOTR not in hand) that knocks Merry over. The way they use terror on their victims. And Merry tries to follow one! Dauntless hobbit!

I really don't want to read LOTR totally as a patchwork of ideas that other writers I love have adapted to their own works....but I don't think I can help it.

Strider could take the ring if he wanted it, yes. But he's the crownless that will become king, so he has pretty good job prospects. Galadriel doesn't have such a great alternative in her parallel scene later on in this book.

I like the wary relationship between Butterbur and Strider. I'd love to read a well-done story of their relationship in the past before LOTR. Wonder if there is scope for that in the "bridge" movie that has been talked of, covering the years between The Hobbit and Jackson's LOTR.

[wombatclay]

I often find the black riders less frightening but more disturbing than other similar "bad guys" (Dementors, Myrddraal, the Skull Bearers and Mord Wraiths, etc).

In many of the other series, the "super bad dudes" are...well... they are part of the world they live in, not supernatural (given the world) but deeply and completely evil. From the start (though the skull bearers were human at one point, and are often compared to Nazgul in the literature as a result... but they trade their humanity for ultimate power in a sort of shadow form so there is no "reality" binding them). And they often seem to be above or beyond or behind the laws of that world. Myrddraal can slip from space to space, Dementors just sort of shiver and ooze their way in, Mord Wraiths simply appear and destroy the body and mind in a second while Skull Bearers are simply clouds of malevolent intent that destroy everything in their path. They truly embody the sort of nightmare terror where you can move or breath or scream and you know you're about to die. It's just pure terror and power and helplessness.

Black Riders aren't that "out of bounds scary" for me... they can't fly or ooze, they walk or ride an animal, they wear clothing, carry weapons, and use the door. They have some supernatural powers but much of the time they use plain old intimidation or bribery to get what they want. You can hit them, stab them, shut the door, limit their power through will/intent/words. But they were once babies, children, young adults who had families and loves and hates. They listened to shiny promises and didn't stop to think and step by step they were twisted out of all humanity and reason. They're not alive, they're not dead, but there were once "just like you" in a sense. They became wraiths. It's not what they were from the start, and that means that anyone could share that fate.

I guess for me that makes the Ring Wraiths more scary/sad/disturbing than terrifying.

[aweynsayl]

yess, totally dementors.: i'd forgotten when we "knew" stuff that made us realize that. there's another total jkr moment later that made me scream and drop the book, lol....

"they cant fly or ooze", lmao! lurve it.

so, i've started my lotr quote book. i just couldnt not. otherwise, i'd be forever saying "what was that great line...." etc... some awesome ones so far, but i'm ahead, so i wont give anything away by sharing, lol.

oh, and i decided when i get to TT, i'm re-stringing my special bead/bookmark. thought that was a nice ritual idea.

[dancindoula]

Bump!

Just checking to make sure the thread didn't die just when we meet up with our favorite character. Onward towards Rivendell!

[CariOfOz]

all daydreaming over Strider maybe?

[dancindoula]

(dancindoula gets out her megaphone)

Ahem, is this thing on?

Alright all of you FotR book clubbers, there shall be no kidnapping of the heir of Isildur for your own private purposes - nor Legolas of the Greenwood! They are for general municipal enjoyment.

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Fellowshipping.

[wombatclay]

Week Eleven Chapter Eleven

A Knife in the Dark

Yes... I'm late with this week's chapter, but there it is!

Here we get a quick look back at Fatty and the Bree folk (not exactly helpless!), a clear sign that at this point the nazgul are still working within the normal world (since they weren't sure where Frodo was and needed to split up to cover their bases), yet another four foot rescued, more dreams, and a battle between midges and men! Or hobbits.

It's also a chapter where one of those "near misses" comes into play. The hobbits and Strider only miss Gandalf by a day or so at Weathertop. I'm still not sure if the near misses make the saga stronger or if they start to give an air of "yeah right". Anyone?

[Aubergine68]

Originally Posted by dancindoula

(dancindoula gets out her megaphone)

Ahem, is this thing on?

Alright all of you FotR book clubbers, there shall be no kidnapping of the heir of Isildur for your own private purposes - nor Legolas of the Greenwood! They are for general municipal enjoyment.

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Fellowshipping.

Oh man! But it's so COLD over here this week :!!

Still haven't read the next chapter. I've been OD-ing on Mary Stewart and Noel Streatfeild children's books lately. I'll put LOTR back on top of the pile.

Wombatclay, thanks for your comments re: the Wraiths btw. Very thought-provoking. You're right, the Wraiths are more complex and interesting than Dementors.

I wonder if Rowling ever published backstory to the Dementors? Where did they come from in the moral order of the Harry Potter universe? I don't know those books well enough.

The supposedly good guys use the Dementors as tools to guard the prison of Azkhaban (sp?), and Dumbledore makes it clear that that is a moral problem and it eventually bites them -- the evil Lord V. turns them to his own purposes. So there is a little parallel complexity there -- the Wringwraiths also started as supposedly good guys who were corrupted by the power of evil tools....

Ahh -- time to make breakfast.

ETA I think I should kidnap Merry. He'd be good company, cheerful, and good for domestic chores....

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by dancindoula

(dancindoula gets out her megaphone)

Ahem, is this thing on?

Alright all of you FotR book clubbers, there shall be no kidnapping of the heir of Isildur for your own private purposes - nor Legolas of the Greenwood! They are for general municipal enjoyment.

: *hands them over*

Originally Posted by wombatclay

It's also a chapter where one of those "near misses" comes into play. The hobbits and Strider only miss Gandalf by a day or so at Weathertop. I'm still not sure if the near misses make the saga stronger or if they start to give an air of "yeah right". Anyone?

THIS! Everytime it happens I keep thinking omg NO WAI!

Originally Posted by Aubergine68

Ahh -- time to make breakfast.

ETA I think I should kidnap Merry. He'd be good company, cheerful, and good for domestic chores....

Ya should have snagged Sam instead... then he could have whipped up a scrumptious breakfast for ya

[aweynsayl]

Originally Posted by dancindoula

...there shall be no kidnapping of the heir of Isildur for your own private purposes - nor Legolas of the Greenwood! They are for general municipal enjoyment.

rotflmao!

Originally Posted by wombatclay

... I'm still not sure if the near misses make the saga stronger or if they start to give an air of "yeah right". Anyone?

mmmm. for me, i think i tend to see it as Intended. there's a reason that it happens that way... they need not to meet gandalph before they do, kwim? everyone joins up as and when and where they are intended. maybe i'm a bit of a nut about that, but it is generally how i tend to see things like that. maybe they need the "test" of doing it "alone" first? hmmm.


re: rowling and back-story... maybe it'll be in her new book? isnt that the concept? back story?

[Aubergine68]

Originally Posted by aweynsayl

r

re: rowling and back-story... maybe it'll be in her new book? isnt that the concept? back story?

There is a new book coming? My dd will be delighted!

I am now kinda hoping for some Nazgul backstory in the proposed "bridge" movie that covers the gap between the Hobbit and the LOTR.....

[dancindoula]

mmmm. for me, i think i tend to see it as Intended. there's a reason that it happens that way... they need not to meet gandalph before they do, kwim? everyone joins up as and when and where they are intended. maybe i'm a bit of a nut about that, but it is generally how i tend to see things like that. maybe they need the "test" of doing it "alone" first? hmmm.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I really like that idea. All those weeks of travelling alone with Strider gave the hobbits a chance to really grow to trust him as a leader, and perhaps to see a side of him that he reserves more away from others.

And I can sort of see the whole near miss thing being possible since they are all travelling urgently to the same destination and because the really want to find each other. Or maybe I'm just too willing to believe it because of loving the story, but near misses happen in real life too when people are searching for one another (btdt).

[Maiasaura]

Originally Posted by dancindoula

there shall be no kidnapping of the heir of Isildur for your own private purposes - nor Legolas of the Greenwood! They are for general municipal enjoyment.

for real? so....we get to have them *all together*?!? all at once??
oooh, what a party!

[Mom_enjoying_life]

[QUOTE=dancindoula;12731628]I hadn't thought of it that way, but I really like that idea. All those weeks of travelling alone with Strider gave the hobbits a chance to really grow to trust him as a leader, and perhaps to see a side of him that he reserves more away from others.

I agree. I feel like it gave the hobbits a chance to see how dedicated Strider was to them and their cause. I am not sure they would have seen that as quickly if Gandalf would have been with right away.

[aweynsayl]

i had a thought! heh. glad you liked it.


anyone here seen the movie "HAPPY FEET"? elija wood is a penguin who goes on a hopeless journey with a company of penguins, they travel thru icy peaks, down dark caverns, across forbidding plains, past terrifying monsters.......... ring any bells?

[Aubergine68]

Originally Posted by aweynsayl

anyone here seen the movie "HAPPY FEET"? elija wood is a penguin who goes on a hopeless journey with a company of penguins, they travel thru icy peaks, down dark caverns, across forbidding plains, past terrifying monsters.......... ring any bells?

I did not know that about Happy Feet! Maybe we'll have to rent it sometime...

Just thinking about the geography of the journey -- traveling from low places to high places, sheltered spots, exposed places...I did some fell walking and low mountain climbing in the Lake District once and found it very different from the Rockies! I have visceral memories of that tramp when reading the nitty-gritty of the journey.

What is it about names in LOTR? "Do not speak the name of [Mordor/Sauron etc.] here!" What are they afraid of? What can the invocation of these names do, magically speaking? What power do words have?

Sorry, only questions, no deep thoughts...

[wombatclay]

My feeling about names in LOTR (gathered from random bits of the saga) is that you never know who or what is listening. Some might be active listening, some passive, but by using a name you may be attracting the attention of that individual directly or indirectly.

Words though... the power of words (and vocal music) comes through a lot in LOTR. The universe and all that "is" came about through song. Old Man Willow pulls the hobbits in through song and Tom saves them with words, the Barrow Wright uses words to ensnare and Frodo breaks that hold with words, Frodo defies the Riders at Weathertop with the name of Elbereth, use of the dark speech impacts the elements/disturbs the emotions even in Rivendell, the Gates of Moria are bound to a word, etc.

And in a similar way things are bound to their name... Strider is not Elessar, really. They are different "people" with different manners and ways of being. Tinuviel is the dawning, Undomiel the evenstar. Tolkien actually wrote a guide to Middle Earth names (summary here) and their importance. And there is a fun little article about language in LOTR here.

In many cultures (including British myth), to know something's "true name" is to have a measure of control over it. So it's something Tolkien would have been familiar with on both a personal level (growing up) and an academic level (as a scholar of language).

But, ummmmm... Tolkien was a real language junkie.

[Aubergine68]

Thanks for the article on language. You're right, it is fun!

I took a basic Old English course a long time ago, so I got that Mordor comes from the OE word for murder, and that Middle Earth comes from the OE word for earth. But know nothing of all the rest, so it is interesting to read about Tolkien's language background and despair over all the studying one would have to do to really catch up to him and appreciate his gift for languages.

Anyone read S. M. Stirling's Dies the Fire series about a post-apocalyptic world in which magically guns and electricity and explosions suddenly don't work anymore and civilization collapses spectacularly? A kid who is obsessed with Tolkien and knows how to ride and do archery, etc. becomes a powerhouse in the new order and her band of warriors speak Elvish to each other...kind of fun. SCA types and pagans also rule in the new order that emerges....

I think one reason I've always loved fantasy of all kinds is that fantasy authors in general have a very clear understanding that `words are magic.'

I used to do literary studies and would run into scholars of literature or of philosophy who were interested in the impossiblity of meaning, in indeterminacy. Could never manage to feel much respect for anyone who really cared about that kind of study, because it has always been so clear to me that language creates reality in so many ways.....

`Mr. Underhill' sure didn't work in Bree as an alternative name for Frodo! So names can't work if they are misapplied.

[wombatclay]

You'd love linguistic anthropology! All about how language creates reality/reality creates language. I had a ling anth class where I wrote my final paper in Klingon (at the professor's suggestion actually, the final project was analyzing the interplay between language and culture and while most people were analyzing a "real" culture, I thought it would be fun to analyze a language that was developed after the culture in question was fully formed. And Klingon rocks... there are Klingon language institutes, the works of Shakespeare in the original Klingon, the Old Testament, etc).

Anyway, there's a lot written about how language shapes thought, and thought shapes reality. If you don't have a word for it, you may not have a thought shape for it, and the end result is it "doesn't exist" in your world. Much fun!

Tolkien was such a language guy it's almost scary. Complete invented languages just poured out of him from childhood on. And the list of languages he spoke, read, understood was pretty amazing. And I really love that he said that Middle Earth more or less existed simply so there would be a place where these languages were spoken. My brother and I used Tolkien's languages as our "secret" language as kids, and there was a boy at school who spoke decent dwarvish.

Yes, just paint me with a big ol geek brush.