following the Fellowship, TWO TOWERS begins post 281 - Page 4

[aweynsayl]

catching up here... i am loving savoring this. usually i speed thru books, so it's really fun to slow down and make it really special.

i also have a bit of a crush on "sam"... though it might just be the actor, cause it was pushed along very nicely by all those special features on the dvds with the movies he made....

there was another moment in chapter two that made me think of jkr, but i dont remember off hand what it was..... but it was a clear moment of --ye gods, she stole that!

what strikes me, and i remember being really mad about this when i first read it... gandalf seems sooo slow at figuring it out. i mean, hellloooo?? how hard is it? : any thoughts?

[eilonwy]

Gandalf is WICKED old. Also, I'm inclined (like Sauruman in the movies, hehe) to think that Gandalf is, if not a complete stoner, a bit too enamored of hobbits in general to really grok yicky things when they're around. He wants to think happy thoughts.

Mercyn, the fatter I get the more I appreciate skinny guys. Not skinny girls-- girls need to have soft, comfy places for me to rest against. Guys need to be skinny because I have short legs. Hehe. I'm gonna stop now before I get this innocent book discussion thread pulled.

Wombatclay, it's absolutely true that when you read these things really changes your perspective on them. In terms of motivation you're absolutely right-- Sam's devotion to Frodo... well, have you ever seen this? Neville and Harry have a very different relationship.

[aweynsayl]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

...I'm inclined (like Sauruman in the movies, hehe) to think that Gandalf is, if not a complete stoner...

lmao! after i finished my chapter last night, i started reading some of the extra material in my book, and there was a part on the leaves the hobbits smoke, and how hobbits created the concept, and only one other being-- guess who-- had followed in the art.... fun reading, that bonus material! lol. i think it was meant to be a quote of an article written by merry? clay will know, no doubt, lol.

[eilonwy]

I think Peregrine actually wrote that article (he was the big stoner *heh*).

I'm such a hobbit. I love my food, my drink, and my... pipeweed. Also a big fan of green growing things. :

[wombatclay]

Eilonwy- Gotta love the fan fic.

Aweyn- Merry wrote a history of "pipe weed" and talked about how the plant was found in many regions but that Hobbits were the first to smoke it. (if you mean the bit from Herblore of the Shire in the forward). Though I'm sure Pippin got in on the act! I did love Gandalf's smoke rings in the Hobbit. The "bonus material" routinely saves my emotional state... when I finish the last chapter of RotK I always know there will be at extra stuff to "buffer" the transition.

Gandalf- I agree with eilonwy on that... Gandalf is older than old (he's functionally immortal, created before time began and before elves or dwarves or men were around) and he has seen so much pain/suffering/betrayal that I feel like he wants to keep the Shire/Hobbits as a happy place, a silly hobby that wont ever "hurt" him or bring anything but amusement to his existance. And as he explains, he doesn't have any reason to worry... Saruman is the expert on the rings of power and he has assured everyone up one side and down the other that there is nothing to worry about, the one ring is gone forever, and the other "biggies" are all accounted for so this must be a fairly minor ring made by some unknown elvin smith in the first age. Dangerous maybe, but not deadly. (of the wizards we know, Saruman is master of esoteric knowledge, Radagast specializes in animals/nature, and Gandalf collects information that addresses all different sorts of healing)

So even though Gandalf thinks the ring is odd and possibly dangerous, he doesn't have any reason to think it is that dangerous. Kind of like those antique shows where someone brings in the cruddy painting they've had out in the garage for 20 years (and that the bought at a yard sale for a dollar) only to learn it's some lost piece by a famous someone and worth millions and no one can figure out how it got into that garage sale in the first place. Gandalf is also going outside his "field" (he isn't an art history dude so he has to learn everything about the artist/painting/forgery from the ground up) and against the advice of his superior (so a true art historian saying "no no that painting was lost in a fire, no way it survived, any similar paintings must be fake").

When you add in that to accept it as real means a return to pain/fear/death/failure (and the extended lifespans of the people involved) I'm not surprised it took 40-50 years to get to the "dang, it really is true, now what do I do?" moment.

[journeymom]

So, if you were very sad or cried when you finished reading Return of the King, why? I know, the answer might seem obvious, but I just want to know what moved you, in your own words.

Long Expected Party: "the title of this chapter is a play on the title of the first chapter of the Hobbit... "An Unexpected Party". : 30 years now and I had never made that connection.

LotR and HP: I've always paralleled Ron with Sam, not Neville. But I can see that like Sam was briefly a ring bearer like Frodo, BINKIN DON'T LOOK HERE

Warning :: Spoiler Ahead! Highlight to read message!

---

Neville was the other Prophecy Boy like Harry.

---

That parallel fits.

JKR says she didn't read LotR until after she started HP, but the parallels are undeniable. I don't think she was lying, it's just that she was writing a Hero's Epic Journey-story, which shares many features of a lot of important, historical, familiar stories, including LotR (and Beowulf, the Arthur legend, Percival's quest for the grail, Star Wars). That's all I'll say, don't want to ruin Binkin's first, exquisite, virgin read of Harry Potter. There's nothing like your first time.

"I'll be honest... the first movie is pretty close to the books." While I agree with you for the most part, I think it's Lorijds who would disagree vehemently with you!

Radagast: Help! Isn't there a character with this exact same name in the Chronicles of Narnia??

I hope it's okay that I've just jumped in here while conversation is in progress.

[eilonwy]

As someone who didn't read LotR until adulthood, I feel comfortable saying that the stories are pretty well ingrained in modern culture. There are so many aspects of stories that play into other stories.... sometimes it really feels like there are no new stories.

[journeymom]

Don't Sam and Frodo talk about how their stories will be told one day to children, and children will say, tell us again the story about Sam and Frodo and the Ring!

We really like stories about heroes.

[aweynsayl]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

I'm such a hobbit. I love my food, my drink, ...Also a big fan of green growing things.

ditto! see my siggie? :

Originally Posted by wombatclay

Aweyn- Merry wrote a history of "pipe weed" and talked about how the plant was found in many regions but that Hobbits were the first to smoke it. (if you mean the bit from Herblore of the Shire in the forward). ......So even though Gandalf thinks the ring is odd and possibly dangerous, he doesn't have any reason to think it is that dangerous. ...I'm not surprised it took 40-50 years to get to the "dang, it really is true, now what do I do?" moment.

that be the bit!
yeah i see that. it feels more frenetic in my memory, so the time lapsed always suprises me.

Originally Posted by journeymom

JKR says she didn't read LotR until after she started HP, but the parallels are undeniable. I don't think she was lying, it's just that she was writing a Hero's Epic Journey-story, which shares many features of a lot of important, historical, familiar stories, including LotR (and Beowulf, the Arthur legend, Percival's quest for the grail, Star Wars).

i'm trying to remember if joe campbell mentions tolkien? anyone? shall i dig my copy of "hero..." out and see? gesh. if i didnt have a nearly 40 lb nursling on my lap i'd do that...... oh! google. <never did finish my coffee this morning...> mmm.. slow finding, but here's a bit that mentions lewis & tolkien... how i'd liked to have been a fly on the wall for a conversation about myth between those two. i've been to the pub they used to hang out at... sigh.
ah. here:

"The Hero with a Thousand Faces" was published in 1948, "The Hobbit" in 1937. The writing of LotR was begun in 1936 and continued through to 1949, with revision through til publication in 1954-55. There is no evidence to suggest JRRT knew of, or was influenced by Campbell's theories...

gak i'm being a nerd today. :

Originally Posted by eilonwy

.... sometimes it really feels like there are no new stories.

and yet, we'll read the good ones over and over and over....

[nummies]

Originally Posted by aweynsayl

what strikes me, and i remember being really mad about this when i first read it... gandalf seems sooo slow at figuring it out. i mean, hellloooo?? how hard is it? : any thoughts?

I thought the same thing! I just really don't feel any sense of urgency. In the movie you felt that sense of "Oh crap we gotta go now!"

And I am cracking up over here...Gandalf=the orginal stoner.

[wombatclay]

Tolkien and Lewis were really close friends for a long time. They shared a lot with each other and with the other members of their writing/drinking societies.

Radagast- I don't recall a Radagast in Narnia (but I'm not a big Narnia geek and it's been years so I dunno ). Reepicheep is a similar name though so could that be it? Or maybe Rabadash?

Journeymom- welcome! jump in jump in! About the book/movie... with the first film I could sort of see why they made the changes they did and (IMO) although some of the stuff deleted was HUGE is was at least not the sort of fundamental change to the story that the later films contained. I don't want to have spoilers for the mamas who have only seen the films, but jumping from Bag End to Bree was a huge change from the book, but not as disturbing to me as, say, the Warg attack in TT and the resulting spin off or the total change to Faramir and what that did to the story or even Treebeard and the role of the Ents. And RotK (movie).... ack!

I guess I can forgive them for "editing out" but not so much for "editing in". And since it's such a complex and interwoven story, the editing out more or less requires a eventual editing in so that the audience has some clue what is going on.

Sadness at the end- hmmmmm.... I can't really describe it without getting into stuff some new to the books mamas wouldn't know. And I don't want to give spoilers that far ahead!

[ian'smommaya]

elionwy which copy do you have? i dont think mine has an herblore of the hobbits part and i would love to read it.

[wombatclay]

Does your edition have a prologue? If so, there should be a "history of pipe weed" which is taken from the Herblore book written by Meriadoc Brandybuck.

[aweynsayl]

Originally Posted by nummies

I thought the same thing! I just really don't feel any sense of urgency. In the movie you felt that sense of "Oh crap we gotta go now!"

lol! yes!

Originally Posted by wombatclay

Tolkien and Lewis were really close friends for a long time. They shared a lot with each other and with the other members of their writing/drinking societies.

i sat in that pub for such a long time... drinking a guinness, just..... ahhhhh.... i'm hoping there's some on this in that diss i mentioned. gotta dig it out and dust it off..... ohh, maybe this weekend!

Originally Posted by ian'smommaya

elionwy which copy do you have? i dont think mine has an herblore of the hobbits part and i would love to read it.

mine has it... i have the 50th edition all three books in one paperback. i lurve it.

[Maiasaura]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Mercyn, the fatter I get the more I appreciate skinny guys.....Guys need to be skinny because I have short legs. Hehe. I'm gonna stop now before I get this innocent book discussion thread pulled.

oh.
yeah.

well, i see your point. like i said, though, it's been over 6 years, so i think i am a born-again virgin
but i think i'd still feel *extra* fat. all the rest of the time.

how fat are you, may i ask? i'm 5'1" and 194. eek.

[ian'smommaya]

Originally Posted by mercyn

oh.
yeah.

well, i see your point. like i said, though, it's been over 6 years, so i think i am a born-again virgin
but i think i'd still feel *extra* fat. all the rest of the time.

how fat are you, may i ask? i'm 5'1" and 194. eek.

5'1 is cute! i am 5'8 or 5'10
and cough cough men need to be tall and un not skinny. ya know those minnesotan men

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by wombatclay

I'll be honest... the first movie is pretty close to the books.

Awesome I told dh about the writing cleaning up a bit further in.. but I don't think he believes me lol.

Originally Posted by mercyn

think that's a hint?

Yeah it was a BIG hint lol.. and he didn't even eat it all :

Originally Posted by eilonwy

Wombatclay, it's absolutely true that when you read these things really changes your perspective on them. In terms of motivation you're absolutely right-- Sam's devotion to Frodo... well, have you ever seen this? Neville and Harry have a very different relationship.

Is that a gay hobbit vid? lol Cause we've seen a few of those and literally

Originally Posted by wombatclay

Does your edition have a prologue? If so, there should be a "history of pipe weed" which is taken from the Herblore book written by Meriadoc Brandybuck.

Mine has that So is their pipe weed somewhat of a cross between tobacco and something slightly more.. herbally illicit? Cause when Merry & Pippin are at Isengard in the movie they seem pretty well wasted lol.

Originally Posted by mercyn

how fat are you, may i ask? i'm 5'1" and 194. eek.

phhht! I'm 5'6 but about 220 Most of the time I love my curves, especially when I find THE outfit

[wombatclay]

Pipe-weed:

Tolkien always said is was straight up tobacco (he was writing a mythic history of England and this was his tobacco genesis myth so to speak). The counter cultural movement of the 60-70 said it was straight up "other smoking material". Which drove Tolkien completely batty and he wrote a number of letters blasting the "hippies" who were twisting his writing.

However, especially in the US, the pipe-weed/hemp link sort of stuck despite Tolkien's statements and most representations of LotR lean towards pipe-weed being a bit "stronger" than tobacco. I always saw with the "plain old tobacco" image in my mind just because...well... it's what he said (and I knew a few relatives who smoked pipes and could blow smoke rings), and when I was first reading the books I didn't know there was anything else you could smoke.

[Maiasaura]

Originally Posted by ian'smommaya

5'1 is cute! i am 5'8 or 5'10
and cough cough men need to be tall and un not skinny. ya know those minnesotan men

gawd, i know, i HATE being cute. not that cute is bad-- but people don't take you seriously when you're short. at *all*.
no, i don't know from minnesotan men. might have to find out!

Originally Posted by CariOfOz

phhht! I'm 5'6 but about 220 Most of the time I love my curves, especially when I find THE outfit

everybody's answering as if i assumed all y'all were fat! that was actually not a general question; it was directed at eilonwy since she was the one who said she was fat and had short legs and so preferred skinny men i was trying to compare to her. dunno why i do that, but seeing if i was fatter. but it's funny anyhow, since y'all are assuming you're fat

see, though? the hobbits are short and nobody takes them seriously either. you get treated like a child more often. and it's weird-- when i see other short women, i mean *really* short, like me, especially older ones-- i wonder if i look that silly. because i do think they look silly. so tiny! if i wasn't so fat, i might be that tiny, too. it looks so weird to me!

[ian'smommaya]

men up here like the short girls. really alot.

i however am not short.

so which copy are you all reading?