Natural childbirth in France

[chocolatefish]

First an introduction... have recently moved to Lyon, France from New Zealand, though I am a Scots lass originally. We had our first baby in NZ and from a natural birth pov it was great - I found the 'system' to be very supportive of that, being midwife-led, fully state funded, great BF encouragement and support. It was a fairly traumatic birth (shoulder dystocia) but thanks to a great midwife we all got through it without needing any major pain relief (I used the birthing pool for most of it, and GandA) or surgery. The midwife used a hand held monitor throughout, and I only had an IV line fitted when I was seriously knackered and needed fluids to keep going.

LO is 9 months old now and we are contemplating eventually having another baby here in France this time. Again I am keen to have as natural a birth as possible - hydrotherapy / pool for labouring in, no epidural, able to move around, no IV line or continuous monitoring.

However my trusty 'Living and Working in France' book is very discouraging! It says that the French have not embraced natural childbirth, that permission is needed from the hosp to have my DH atttend the birth or to get onto all fours during labour / birth, that IV lines and belly monitors are fitted as standard on admittance... sounds crap!

So am looking for reassurance / advice / sources of info / experiences from other mamas in la belle France! There is a thread in the archives but it is from 2005.

Merci
CF

[ewe+lamb]

Your book is about right on the natural childbirth thing - it's really not encouraged and not an easy road - I personally would contact your local LLL group and see if someone could direct you - we're just outside paris so I don't know much about Lyon but from past experience, also you could find out if any 'Baby Friendly' hospitals are about Lyon, 'Ami des Babes' it's a Unicef supported scheme to encourage natural childbirth, breastfeeding etc - there maybe one around you, also the other thing to check out is a 'Maison de Naisance' find out if there's one near you. We had to get permission for dh to be at the birth of ds and quite honestly if we ever have another baby I'm going back to Scotland - oh yes I'm from Gullane even Simpsons seems like a dream after giving birth in france, or you could look into homebirth, again some LLL groups could direct you to some favourable midwives.
Good luck.

[luv]

I interviewed three hospitals in or near Paris and not one would even consider letting me birth in any position other than flat on my back. One hospital thought I was crazy for considering giving birth to my first child without an epidural. You should have seen my doc’s face when I asked and he said “I really would not recommend that for a first time mother!”

These are some of the reasons that led us to choose homebirth for this babe. It is tough, but not impossible, to find a good midwife that will attend but for us it was worth it.

-luv

[chocolatefish]

Wow that's discouraging! What century is it in France again?? It makes me so mad that any doctor should think he has the right to tell me what position to put my own body in when it's me giving birth!!!

Hmmm will have to get thinking cap on and French language skills improved. I haven't registered with a doc yet but will quiz him, and also the french mommy friends I am slowly making. Thanks for the links there looks to be interesting info at the end of them.

Luv - am rather daunted at the prospect of a homebirth, not least because #1 turned out so unexpectedly difficult and it was only being in a hosp that got DS born in the end. Also reading that I have done so far indicates that there is no way to predict shoulder dystocia but that a previous event does increase the likelihood of it recurring, though still very small.

Ewe - was the Simpson's at the ERI? If so I'm afraid it is long gone! The ERI is currently being redeveloped as flash apartments and offices, no longer a hospital - well it was prime real estate!! Maternity care for the west of Edinburgh now goes to Livingston... a big new hosp at Dalkeith / Little France takes all the others. Not from edinburgh but did live there for 10 years before going to NZ - a great city!

[ewe+lamb]

Oh I know that the ERI has 'gone' from Lauriston Place - I worked at the architects office that did all that, but Little France is still called the ERI, and the maternity section is still called Simpsons although it's more a ward than 'hospital' in fact I had my daughter there she was one of the first babies there and the experience was 1000% better than anything I experienced here in France with my son, hence the plan to go back to scotland to have another child!! In fact I know alot of mothers that go back to their country of origin because France is so rigid!! I would look into a homebirth if I were you, the reason I say this is that although you have had a difficult experience you gave birth vaginally = you know you can do it, and also second babes usually have a shorter labour because your body has done all the work before and knows what it really needs to do. When you are in familiar settings, with just a quiet midwife watching on, then things tend to roll much better than bright lights, people going in and out etc I would recommend reading some of Michel Odent's books about birth and what he recommends - it may help you also get in contact with your local LLL group who may be able to give you some midwife names etc and talk to folk with past experience and then go ahead and interview the midwives, make sure you talk to mothers about their experiences with the midwives.

[~ani~]

[cytogal]

Hi Chocolatefish,

Welcome to Lyon! I also live here, am fairly new, etc., having moved here last January from Los Angeles. I haven't checked this forum in ages, though, hence my late reply to your query.

Yes, natural childbirth here is a difficult thing to acheive. I am currently in my 5th month of pregnancy, expecting to give birth at the end of March. This is my first baby, so I am not so educated yet as to what is possible becuase I am still researching it myself. Here is what I've found out:

There was one clinic in Lyon that was pro-natural birth and allowed for water labor (in Decines). It's closing in January. Rotten luck, let me tell you!!!!! There is another one with the option of laboring in water, in Givors (20km south of Lyon), though we did not consider it because we do not have a car. Also, a surgeon friend of ours did not recommend it as a good place to give birth, though he did not give detailed reasons, and I have not researched the place myself. Other than these two places, I don't know of any other places that allow to labor in water.

As far as homebirth--it is especially difficult here in Lyon. There is only one midwife in the area (according to my doula) who will do a homebirth. In general midwives won't take the risk because it's impossible to buy malpractice insurance in France that covers homebirth. A story I heard about this midwife did not encourage me, though, and I decided not to go that route for lack of confidence in being able to find a midwife I could trust, especially for my first birth experience.

On the brighter side, I found an OB that is wonderul and also understanding of my desires to have a natural birth. He told me that his wife gave birth naturally twice (I'm not sure what the specifics of her experience are, though). He is at the new Hopital Femme, Mere, Enfant in Bron. Though this hospital is famous for being very medicalized, I am strongly leaning toward going there simply because my OB is there. We have an appointment in a couple of weeks with one of the sage femms there, and I will let you know what she says. For myself, I am hoping to be allowed to labor in many positions, without an epidural or drugs, though I do not know the standard hospital policies yet. If they are numerous, then I think I would try to stay home for as long as possible before going to the hospital. If, after interviewing the sage femme, I am completely unable to do what I want, then I will consider doing something else. While it is not common, I have met a couple of women here who have had natural births (one woman has done it three times!), so I know that it is possible, though difficult.

One last thing--there is an organization of doulas here in France, though most French hospitals don't allow them to attend births. We are going to try to get her in by saying we need a translator (which is true). Doulas are prohibited in France from helping a woman labor at home as well. They do not have nearly the range of skills as doulas in the USA, unfortunately.

Also, LLL does not have a group here. I think there is a similiar organization, though French. I have not researched it yet, as my language skills are not so good.

Hope this helps! Should be interesting come March...

[IsaFrench]

hi, I 'm French & gave birth to my first born locally, just doing what I was told to do because at that time I didn't know any better and then SO SURPRISED to meet a fellow french mom at my local LLL group who birthed more or less as she wanted to except for the last 5 minutes of it AT THE SAME HOSPITAL and that was more than 9 years ago ... basically if you know what you are doing and what approach you want to achieve it could be possible in most cases BUT, true, you have to resist old ways of doing & you never know who's going to be on duty on the day you turn up at the hospital , they could be helpfull , or not ...

REMEMBER though, you've got an ace up your sleeve = you can always say ... "in my country .... we do it that way" or "in my family ...." & "in my neighborhood ..." (in case they challenge you on your country's practices) => that 's what a local expat told me she used to bend the rules a bit .....

French people love rules but are also highly individualistic so there's a lot of exceptions & a lot of people tend to think that the rules should apply mostly to others and not themselves when it suits them best ...

I don't know what the most recent laws are like these days but in my time, one way to get names of "sage-femmes libérales" who would have a more natural approach or to know which Gynecologist would be more likely to support such wishes was to attend a LLL meeting and/or playgroup and canvas every new mom on where they gave birth & what did they think of it there ....

good luck in Lyon !

[IsaFrench]

have you tried looking there ? (some speak English)
http://www.doulas.info/carte.php

[IsaFrench]

have you tried looking on www.perinatalite.info ? I saw two addresses in Lyon.

[Angela BC]

Oui! You can!

I'll chime in for a moment. I am American, but with a double nationality because I lived in France for 13 years. I gave birth to my first two children in France. It is very similar to the US in that you will have the birth you plan for. A hospital setting will yield pretty much the same thing in France as in the US. If you go in, uninformed and meek as a lamb, you will be treated as such.

My first baby was born in Toulouse in a hospital where 90% of labors were in the water; there were five or six birthing suites with birth pools, beds with pretty pink sheets and a fantastic staff; kind, warm, encouraging of natural birth and informed about breast-feeding to the point that they were willing to defy doctor's orders to give my baby formula. And my fantastic, non-interventionist midwife was a member of LLL and nursing her 14-month old baby. I had an emergency c-section, but the fifteen hours I spent looking at the birth pool were very pleasant. And my OB actually apologized before doing the c-section.

We moved before the birth of my son. I was in a new city, (Bordeaux) in a dither, but determined to have a VBAC. I had to interview a number of OBs before I found one to my liking, but I got my VBAC. They have had ambulatory monitoring available in France for years. And even the hospital I ended up in did not require monitoring or an IV as long as you did not have drugs.

There is an organization (called "association" in French) for midwives and natural birth advocates in France. I cannot remember their name just now, but it would be easy to find out. They could give you all the latest info.

Empower yourself, sister expat, educate yourself, and for goodness' sake, look up LLL, anywhere in France, to begin with. Give Sylvie in Mont-de-Marsan a call. She is a LLL leader with five children, very sweet and very helpful. She brought Jack Newman to tiny Mt.de Marsan single-handed, and gathered an entire auditorium to hear him speak, a small miracle!

You always have the option of arriving on the scene at the very last minute to drop-deliver baby wherever you find it convenient to do so. You are not required to give them time to set you up the way they want you, lol!

Good luck, and remain confident, France is a lovely place to have children, they are valued and cherished (and very well dressed!) All the best,

Angela
http://ahomeschoolstory.blogspot.com

[ewe+lamb]

Angela - I think it's great that you had a positive experience here in France, however, this is not the norm, I meet with women practically every day, they are French, British, American, Polish, Lebanese - a real mix of culture and all these women have been informed - and certainly not meek as lambs - as you put it, members of LLL and other natural parenting groups and STILL they come forward with problems they face every day for giving birth the way they would like, as I said previously I think it's wonderful that you managed to have a birth you wanted but we have to be realistic in that even informed strong women who have to fight to not end up lying on their back, feet in stirups, epidurals and a team that constantly tells them that they aren't doing well; they must be tired etc, and finally that woman gets worn down, or labelled as an anxious, nervous, over-protective mother, to fight just to have you rights observed - because in most cases they will not be respected - is hard work when you're trying to concentrate on giving birth - I still say that everyone, fathers included, must be there to protect their partner and unborn child, take the LLL Leaders phone numbers (as many as you can) join yahoo groups such as ANPA who write letters to hospitals every day practically fighting for women's rights in childbirth, yes you can be informed but you need more than that here - unless you are exceptionally lucky.

[cytogal]

Ok, here is the latest in my experience trying to have a natural birth here in Lyon. My experience has been very much like what the other posts on this thread have said. It's definitely true that it's difficult to find pro-natural support here in Lyon, but if you go in as with as much education as possible and with a plan and a back-up plan, you can increase your chances of getting what you want. Here is what I am doing here in Lyon, in case it's helpful:

I have an OB who is sympathetic to my wishes, and he is based at Hopital Femme Mere Enfant (HFME) in Bron. This is where I will give birth.

HFME is allowing me to bring my doula as a translator. This goes against their usual policy (usually only one other person is allowed to attend), but since we do not speak French well, they are making a special allowance for us.

HFME will allow me to move freely and labor in many positions, as long as I do not have any drugs. Also, the hospital's c-section rate is comparitively low (17%, though this includes many high risk cases according to the midwife I talked to).

HFME has a program where I could state my preferences for the birth, to be given to the staff on D-day and honored as much as possible. In this I stated my wish to not have an epidural, episiotomy, etc.

HFME's infant care programs were very good (immediate bonding, rooming-in, etc.).

There are negatives too, such as not being able to eat or drink, but they are things that are 2nd priority to me or are things I think I can work around.

So, in many ways, I think it's a matter of what your priorities are. I'm not getting everything I would want (like a tub to labor in, freedom to drink water rather than go the IV route), but I do think that with the team of having my husband and my doula there, with practiced relaxation techniques and such, I can maximize my chances of having my first priorities filled.

Eish!! Wish me luck! March is coming fast!

[chocolatefish]

Wow loads of info! Sorry I haven't been back for a while.
Angela - your Toulouse experience sounds great, if only it was the standard rather than the exception here in France.

E+L - I agree that the natural way should be the standard, and the medical approach only used for emergency situations, rather than the other way round. And we shouldn't have to fight for that, giving birth is knackering enough without taking on the medical hierarchy at the same time!

Cytogal - thanks so much for all the specific info. I will definitely respond to your PM more fully!

I guess the message is to be well informed, determined and to find a sympathetic OB at the beginning - oh and not turn up at the hosp until it's too late for the interventions to get started!! It's kind of academic at the moment as I am nowhere near being pregnant again (and if DS1 continues to BF as much as at present it will be a long time!!), but very reassuring to have the information and the contacts. Probably the longer the delay the better as it will give me a chance to improve my French...

BTW there is no LLL group in Lyon, the closest I have found is www.galactee.org which is mostly French speaking but has some English speaking members who will respond to emails in English.

Thanks all!

[Angela BC]

A great contact in LLL

Hello again CF,

Here is the number of Sylvie, an LLL leader in Mont-de-Marsan, in the south of France. I don't know how her English is, but I think she can get by. She is truly wonderful, and if you'd like, you can leave me a message and I would be happy to help translate for you.

Sylvie 05 58 98 76 39 [e-mail]

All the best!

Angela

[winter singer]

I'm sorry I didn't spot this thread earlier -I hope the OP is doing well and everything is going according to plan.

Just in case anyone reading this thread would like to know - I actually gave birth at the hospital in Givors that a PP mentioned (20 km south of Lyon) last September and would highly recommend it. We're an hour and a half's drive away from there and I had to do quite a bit of legwork to find out about it, but boy am I glad I did.

They have a Salle Nature with a bath, exercise balls, a bracket hanging from the ceiling to hang onto if you want, a king-size mattress on the floor, dim lighting, and (best of all in my opinion) a feeling of calm and privacy. (As soon as DH and I were brought into the room the midwife told us to act as though we were in our own home, and that no-one wold disturb us without our consent). There was a problem with a monitoring machine that led to some unnecessary stress, but other than that the experience couldn't really have been any better. It was a posterior birth and my midwife told me that, because of the problem with the monitor, a lot of hospitals would have simply wheeled me in for a caesarian. Instead of which I had a completely natural birth, no drugs.

I would also highly recommend the sage-femme liberale who followed my pregnancy and attended the birth in Givors. I'm not sure how much English she or the Givors staff in general speak, though I heard there's an Irish midwife in Givors (she was away on holiday when I was there). If anyone would like more specific information feel free to PM me.

[winter singer]

Just read through the threads again and realised it was Cytogal rather than the OP whose due date was in March! Well anyway, hope all goes well! :

[*theophane*]

HEY,

I'm French living in the US.
i know a male midwife in Lyon, doing HB and hospital births.
His first name is Cyril or Cyrille. Forgot his last name but you could find it on the web.
on liste naissance.ws, they have a board with a few English speaking members, for sure
and i know several doulas from doulas de france were trained in the US or UK so you could get great feedbacks there!

Good luck!

[cytogal]

Thanks for the info, Winter Singer! An update to my story...

When I last wrote, it seemed HFME was going to respect my wishes. In January I got a letter from them that essentially retracted many of their promises to me (being able to have a translator present at the top of the list). Around this time, thanks to my doula, I discovered the hospital at Givors. I was there yesterday, in fact, for my first round of monitoring, and I LOVE the environment! It was stressful, deciding to switch maternities during my 9th month of pregnancy, but at this point I am very, very glad that I did. I am happy to know you had a good experience there, and I am very hopeful that I will as well.

Today is my due date! So for now I am just waiting my turn...

[cytogal]

...and Theophane...I forgot to say...the midwife you are talking about is Cyrille Phillipe. If I had it to do over again, I would definitely choose to be followed by him. I have heard wonderful things about him. He has an agreement with Givors that allows him to give prenatal care to his patients (in their homes, I believe) and then come with them to the hospital when they give birth. The program is called: Accouchement en plateau technique par une sage-femme libérale.

The website for Givors maternite: http://www.ch-givors.fr/maternite/na...cc_physio.html If you go to the accueil page, then they have an English version too (I think this is new)!