Need to vent and have a couple questions.

[cupcake'smom]

Yesterday my dd had her 15 month well baby visit. At first, my husband and I had discussed selective and delayed vaxes. I was scared into doing DTaP by her pediatrician. She had the shot twice- 4 and 6 months. Then I started researching and reading more. It never felt right for us. We were using all natural food-grade shampoo, lotion and diaper rash cream. When she hit 6 months I was steaming and pureeing all of her organic fruits and vegetables; yet we allowed her to have two needles full of chemicals and toxins injected into her tiny little body. Didn't make sense so we stopped.

She has never been sick. The only time she sees the doctor is for her wb visits. I really do like and respect her doctor. At the end of each visit though I am always made to feel awkward, because she'll ask which vaccines I am allowing at that visit and I always say were not doing any. At least not for now. She gets visibly irritated and throws in some little tid bit about this disease or that and how dd needs to be protected from it.

Yesterday at her 15 month appt the doc asked if I had planned on any vaccines for that visit and I said no, that we weren't considering any until sometime after 2. (Which isn't a complete lie. We're not 100 percent sure yet that we will never allow her to get any. Definitely not now though). Anyway, she interrupted me and cut me off and said, "You know what, at this point I'm just going to have you sign a waiver!" She threw up her hands and marched out of the office to get a waiver. She brought it back. It was a paper from the AAP that she had checked off all of the vaccines that she had recommended and I refused. It stated that she had suggested and explained these vaccines and I was responsible if my child developed a vpd and/or infected any other person! I was so caught off guard and I'm not a confrontational person. Is that normal? Have any of you been asked to sign something like that?

She left the room for me to look over it. When she came back in she said, "I just want you to know that I hope to continue to see your glorious little girl as my patient." She also said, "Keep an eye on the news. There have been some measles outbreaks and some children are now blind or retarded because their parents decided not to vaccinate!" She also said that I was needlessly worrying about the toxins and chemicals when I should be worried about the disease. It was strange. I don't know if I should look for a different doctor or keep seeing her, but skip out on wb visits since there are no problems and she's not getting any vaccines?

I do have a few questions that I don't feel like I can ask her and feel confident that most of you on this forum would be more knowledgeable than her about anyway.

- If you're not vaccinating for certain diseases (i.e. measels, chickenpox) that used to be a normal part of childhood, but are now rare, what do you intend to do if your child hasn't caught them by their late teens? Do you talk it over with your child and decide to get/or not get the vaccine at that time. I know things like measels and chicken pox can be much more serious for adults than for children so I want to know if she doesn't happen upon the virus naturally, is there ever a "good" time to vaccinate? I've heard about chicken pox and measels parties too, but I'm still wondering what if she doesn't get these naturally...

I still get nervous as to whether or not we've made the right decisions for her sometimes, but I feel more empowered when I have a few minutes and can jump on this forum and read the things that all of you have to say. I appreciate your comments and advice.

[tanyalynn]

- If you're not vaccinating for certain diseases (i.e. measels, chickenpox) that used to be a normal part of childhood, but are now rare, what do you intend to do if your child hasn't caught them by their late teens? Do you talk it over with your child and decide to get/or not get the vaccine at that time. I know things like measels and chicken pox can be much more serious for adults than for children so I want to know if she doesn't happen upon the virus naturally, is there ever a "good" time to vaccinate? I've heard about chicken pox and measels parties too, but I'm still wondering what if she doesn't get these naturally...

My kids are only 2 and 4, so it's not going to be a serious issue for quite a while. Right now, I'm thinking the benefits won't ever outweigh the risks. My son, my 2nd child, my first totally unvaccinated, gets sick quite a bit. His two fall/winter seasons, he's been sick almost constantly, yet even the little I've learned on how to care for sick people has been enough that we've only once gone to the doctor for a sick visit, and that was Dec06. And I know I've just scratched the surface of how to support the body through illness.

I am frustrated that Western medicine knows so little about all the ways to help people get through illness successfully. People are creative and resourceful and in the vast expanse of history before vaccines, they didn't just sit around when illness came to visit, they figured out how to minimize the effects. And I can educate myself, I have money to buy good food and supplements, so I'm better off than the vast majority of people throughout history. So I think my kids will have a lot of things to choose from (since I'm not done learning) in how to get through whatever illnesses they get as an adult, vaccine-available ones or not.

[wantingagirl2b#4]

I know how you feel cupcake'smom ((((HUGS)))) I have a set of twins 20 months old and I get lip all the time from my dh because we just are not together on the vax. delima! They are both vax. free with the exception that I was talked into the vit K shot for our son shortly after birth since he had forcips used ;0( . For me though I feel I am doing the right thing for our kids. There are too many things out there all about the all mighty dollar and my kids are not going to be used for that purpose (.) peroiod! This board is a wealth of knowledge and there are so many parents on this board to help us along the way. You will do fine (((((((((((HUGS mama)))))))))))))

[anewmama]

I will probably do measles and rubella. And eventually tetanus at 7 (not that this is a VPD you want to hope to get or getting it will provide immunity!).

[spero]

Did you sign the form?

I refuse to sign any waivers. They are worded so as to put all acceptance of "risk" on the parents, although the AAP form can (legally) be changed BY YOU in any way. It is also not a legal document. A waiver is merely a CYA thing for a doc to have on file, as stated by the AAP:

If a parent refuses a recommended vaccine and their child later develops a disease, the issue of professional liability can arise. Therefore, documentation of a parental refusal is essential. Documentation should indicate that:

* The parent was informed of why the vaccine is recommended
* The parent was informed of the risks and benefits of vaccination
* The parent was informed of the possible consequences of not vaccinating
* Patient educational materials were provided

The AAP Refusal to Vaccinate Form, which should not be considered a legal document without advice from a lawyer, may be used as a template for documentation of parental refusal.

The form can be revised based on the needs of individual practices.

http://practice.aap.org/content.aspx?aid=545

And it is reiterated here:

The American Academy of Pediatrics’ Committee on Infectious Diseases and Committee on Medical Liability state that documentation in the patient’s medical record of the efforts of physicians to communicate vaccine risks and benefits may help to decrease potential liability should a vaccine-preventable disease occur in the unimmunized patient

http://www.cispimmunize.org/pro/pdf/...%204-11-06.pdf

Physicians have been held responsible for harm under circumstances in which a test was recommended by the physician and refused by the patient, because the jury found that the physician did not adequately convey the seriousness of the matter or only discussed the issue on one occasion.

[cupcake'smom]

Spero- I did sign the form. Mostly because I was caught off guard and couldn't believe the way she (pediatrician) was acting.

Maybe I should put up a fight and ask for it back, because she often explains the benefits, but refuses to talk about the risks. I saw the sentence "Parent was explained both risks and benefits of the vaccination." I thought about debating that point with her, but didn't.

[kiwiva]

I think we all wonder sometimes if we are doing the right thing when we are going against the mainstream.

I've never been asked to sign the form. We see a family doc and I think it is more a pedi thing, though who knows. I personally would not sign it. I'd be happy to write somethign about the doc recommending the vaxes and me choosing not to, but that's it.

I personally would not be comfortable with a doctor who acted that way to me. Our doc is cool with not vaxing. When I saw another doc in the practice she tried to talk me into a couple, but she was still respectful of me. If a doc needs to use fear mongering to talk me into something, there is a problem I think. You want to feel that you are treated respectfully even if your views disagree with the docs.

As re: the when they get older ques, I think it will be up to DD, though I don't think there is a good time for vaxes generally, she could do a risk/benefit analysis when the time comes. I personally have never had chicken pox (was vaxed for it twice in the last several years-bf I learned about vaxes of course) and used to be very paranoid about getting it as an adult. So I don't know what I'll do with DD as far as introducing her to cp but she's not getting the vax as long as it's up to me.

[In Exile]

Originally Posted by cupcake'smom

Spero- I did sign the form. Mostly because I was caught off guard and couldn't believe the way she (pediatrician) was acting.

Maybe I should put up a fight and ask for it back, because she often explains the benefits, but refuses to talk about the risks. I saw the sentence "Parent was explained both risks and benefits of the vaccination." I thought about debating that point with her, but didn't.

Once something is in a medical file, taking it back out and destroying it it not legal, means tampering with medical files etc, regardless of the issue. Neither you as patient can request that nor is the Office allowed to take pages out of a medical file. There are even laws and regulation on what kind of pen and colour you're supposed to use, full name of patient on each single page with birthday etc.

BUT: You can add something to the file that clearly says "voids all previous statements in that matter as that was signed under duress" or something to that degree.

There are some threads here on the Forum on how to draft your own vax refusal form-if you feel like having one in there.

I only signed the Hep B refusal form in the hospital-and that didn't mention anything like the "bad mommy clause" (mother was explained how she is responsible for the death of her child by refusing a particular vax).

Anything that sounds like the "bad mommy clause" and sounds like "you're an idiot" I am not signing.

ALso-there is no law, rule or what have you that can force you to sign, there just isn't, despite somebody pretending "we HAVE to have you sign this".
There is another thread on here how somebody was bullied pretty good when they tried to get her to sign the "bad mommy AAP clause". She was about to ask, what, you'll hold me hostage until I sign?

They can't force to sign something you don't feel comfortable signing and you already got a pretty good thread of what happens of you dont't vax and also don't sign, i.e. the "I hope I get to see that gorgious girl in the future".

Don't let anyone bully you, take a deep breath and say, I will not sign this, pay your copay if there is one and just leave. Your not their prisoner, you did not lose your civil rights by going to a Doctor's Office.

Takes some practice but with time you get pretty good at answering harassment with appropriate answers.

[Deborah]

There have been some measles outbreaks and some children are now blind or retarded because their parents decided not to vaccinate!" She also said that I was needlessly worrying about the toxins and chemicals when I should be worried about the disease.

I think she was making up stuff. I've been following the news closely and I haven't heard of any child with eye damage or brain damage from the recent outbreaks. I'm sure the CDC would make a huge noise if they could point to serious damage from the measles.

It is so irritating when doctors do this. And they do it regularly. There is a huge thread up in the archives of crazy stuff said by doctors to persuade parents to get their children vaxed. Hundreds and hundreds of stories.

[spero]

Originally Posted by cupcake'smom

Maybe I should put up a fight and ask for it back,

Unfortunately, as a PP stated, that form is now part of your child's medical records and cannot legally be removed or destroyed.

Originally Posted by In Exile

Once something is in a medical file, taking it back out and destroying it it not legal, means tampering with medical files etc, regardless of the issue. Neither you as patient can request that nor is the Office allowed to take pages out of a medical file.

However,

You can add something to the file that clearly says "voids all previous statements in that matter as that was signed under duress" or something to that degree.

I have done this.

Also-there is no law, rule or what have you that can force you to sign, there just isn't, despite somebody pretending "we HAVE to have you sign this".
There is another thread on here how somebody was bullied pretty good when they tried to get her to sign the "bad mommy AAP clause".

That was me. Here's the thread:
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...913&highlight=

The funny thing was, I took my son in the other day (same practice, different doc) and refused his "mandatory" 6th grade vaccines, and I wasn't even asked to sign anything.

They can't force to sign something you don't feel comfortable signing

Don't let anyone bully you,

Takes some practice but with time you get pretty good at answering harassment with appropriate answers.

Or, like me, you eventually learn to simply smile and not engage in a debate at all.

Originally Posted by Deborah

I think she was making up stuff. I've been following the news closely and I haven't heard of any child with eye damage or brain damage from the recent outbreaks. I'm sure the CDC would make a huge noise if they could point to serious damage from the measles.

It is so irritating when doctors do this. And they do it regularly. There is a huge thread up in the archives of crazy stuff said by doctors to persuade parents to get their children vaxed. Hundreds and hundreds of stories.

:

After comparing stories in the thread mentioned above, I realized that peds EVERYWHERE (including my own) are telling the exact SAME stories/lies, verbatim! I swear, they get a special class on this scaremongering/emotional blackmail ("glorious girl" indeed!) in med school!

Like Deborah said, these stories would be national news and the CDC would be reporting these cases, if they were true.