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"People forget what it was like"  

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
Says my grandfather, who is healthy and robust in his mid-70's, despite having suffered through measles, mumps, scarlet fever, and pertussis as a child. He recently told me his life story about how he had to be in quarantine, how his dad had to live at a neighbor's house during his measles quarantine, all the people he knew who had disfiguring scarring from scarlet fever, people he knew who were sterilized by mumps, or paralyzed by polio. He says he never wants to see those diseases come back, and that "People don't remember" what it was like back then.

My argument is that we have better treatments for those diseases today, as opposed to his time where nothing could be done except to sit and wait it out, and while I do worry and don't want my kids to suffer through those things, I am willing to let them suffer because I simply do not believe that modern vaccines are safe and I would much rather spend ten days in quarantine than deal with a lifetime of worse problems or even death from unsafe shots.

I also argue that much of the research I've read has said that those diseases were on the way out by the time the vaccines came into heavy distribution and use, much like diseases of the past like the plague eventually wiped itself out.

Thoughts?
post #2 of 56
There is no vaccine for scarlet fever. I think a big hunk of his argument just unraveled, right there
post #3 of 56
Yeah, plus way back in the 'old days' people didn't know as much about cleanliness as they do today.

And like Deborah said, the diseases were burning themselves out even before the vaxes were 'invented'. I heard that Polio was the result of them spraying DDT on anything that moved...it was a systemic insecticide so it didn't wash off. Interesting how Polio surfaced more during the summer when farmers were spraying their crops with that stuff.
post #4 of 56
See my grandma is the opposite and says they were no big deal and even though her sister is deaf in one ear from mumps she would still not do all the vaccines that we are supposed to do today.
post #5 of 56
How about the prospect of NEW terrible plagues, caused by the vaxes? Ie, shingles running rampant, Rubella coming back just in time for pregnant women's fetuses to be in danger because the mom's vax wore off, not to mention autism, Guillain-Barre, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, other autoimmune diseases with no effective treatments. And this time, they will not "run their course 90% of the time". This time, docs are standing around scratching their heads while pharma develops more vaxes to "deal with" the probs they brought about in the first place.
post #6 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leila1213 View Post
How about the prospect of NEW terrible plagues, caused by the vaxes? Ie, shingles running rampant, Rubella coming back just in time for pregnant women's fetuses to be in danger because the mom's vax wore off, not to mention autism, Guillain-Barre, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, other autoimmune diseases with no effective treatments. And this time, they will not "run their course 90% of the time". This time, docs are standing around scratching their heads while pharma develops more vaxes to "deal with" the probs they brought about in the first place.
Exactly....And while many people did suffer lifelong effects, most people were like my grandfather and survived those things with no effects whatsoever. The things we are dealing with now are so, so much worse (IMO).
post #7 of 56
My mom has the opposite opinion. She had mumps and measles and she said it wasnt that bad. When i told her i wasnt vaxing, she was ok with it.
post #8 of 56
I remember having rubella as a girl (DESPITE more than one vaccine that I have in my little vax forms!), I remember chicken pox- it was no big deal. It meant being home with mom which otherwise never happened-and that's the deal right there. Most employers would rather fire someone than *risk* having a parent that, GOD BEWARE, every once in a while would take care of a child with a typical children's disease.

Asthma, Diabetes, Arthritis and other fun Autoimmun Disease are seemingly preferable to a case of chicken pox and rubella-which also would mean less fetal damage, but oh well, let's play with the longterm effect of just shifting disease-which would you prefer? I would take 10 days of chicken pox as a child over Arthritis with 28 ANY day, thank you very much.:

Why is it that "back then" people didn't drop like flies from friggin' chickenpox? Even measles seem to have mutated into a horrific near-death experience judgin by CDC pictures? Amazing.
post #9 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lydiah View Post
My mom has the opposite opinion. She had mumps and measles and she said it wasnt that bad. When i told her i wasnt vaxing, she was ok with it.
this is true of me. Of course I might be the same age as your mom...but in the 60's, when I was a kid it was always the same, kid is out of school for a week, comes back to school, "what was wrong?" ,answer: measles/mumps/etc... and kid stayed home and watched too much TV. back to school. the end.
post #10 of 56
Yepp, I got to curl up in my parents bed while my mom made mashed potatoes and would be home with us- no Kindergarten. We loved that. Now it's Tylenol until you puke, get to spread it to all the other kids and you get to be miserable, shivering at daycare without mom! Great! I remember climbing into my mom's bed with a book, she would make tea and chickensoup and baby us.:
post #11 of 56
My dad had a very bad case of the mumps, and apparently his parents were both pretty sure he would be sterile because of it. So when my mom got pg with my sister, they were very relieved.

I doubt it was that bad for everyone, but I decided to vaccinate because of my time spent in West Africa, where many of the beggars are polio victims. That is a horrible, horrible disease.
post #12 of 56
I have had all the childhood diseases and I don't remember then at all the way your grandfather does. We were quarantined, that meant also whoever did not yet have the infection was welcome to visit us. My husband was sent over to the neighbors house when they had measles, so he would get the infection and get it over with. No grownups were ever kept from their own home and kids, since they had life long immunity. I am wondering why your grandfather's father was treated as though he needed protection yet the mother evidently stayed with the sick kids? Funny! That does not make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuamami View Post
... my time spent in West Africa, where many of the beggars are polio victims. That is a horrible, horrible disease.
As long as they spray crops with chemicals like DDT (which is outlawed in the western hemisphere), crippling paralysis will be rampant and no vaccine can prevent that.
post #13 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
There is no vaccine for scarlet fever. I think a big hunk of his argument just unraveled, right there
Its still around. My bf's brother had it in the '80s.
post #14 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sileree View Post
Its still around. My bf's brother had it in the '80s.
My point was:

When the pro-vaxers are talking about all the terrible killer diseases defeated by vaccination...

they don't mention scarlet fever...

which did, indeed, kill children...

but doesn't seem to any longer.

So the question is: did children die of scarlet fever because it is a terrible killer disease?

Or did they die of scarlet fever because they were suffering from malnutrition and other bad stuff?

And how many other terrible diseases might have gone the same route?

I think one of the dangers of vaccination is that it provides an illusion of control.

For example, smallpox in the U.S. was a huge killer. But right around 1900, for some completely unknown reason, the dangerous variety of smallpox diminished in the U.S. and a much milder version moved in. The death rate from smallpox went down to almost nothing. Nothing that human beings did caused this. It just happened. Why? Who knows?

Another example. Diphtheria used to be a huge killer. It became much less common in the U.S. by the 30s and early 40s. But the vaccine is usually given the credit for defeating this disease. However, diphtheria is still circulating in the U.S. It just doesn't happen to be the dangerous kind. What happened? Why the change? No one seems to know.

Vaccines are used as an explanation when they really didn't play a part, or played a minor role. This is a distortion of the evidence, always a bad idea, IMO.
post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
My point was:

When the pro-vaxers are talking about all the terrible killer diseases defeated by vaccination...

they don't mention scarlet fever...

which did, indeed, kill children...

but doesn't seem to any longer.

So the question is: did children die of scarlet fever because it is a terrible killer disease?

Or did they die of scarlet fever because they were suffering from malnutrition and other bad stuff?

And how many other terrible diseases might have gone the same route?

I think one of the dangers of vaccination is that it provides an illusion of control.

For example, smallpox in the U.S. was a huge killer. But right around 1900, for some completely unknown reason, the dangerous variety of smallpox diminished in the U.S. and a much milder version moved in. The death rate from smallpox went down to almost nothing. Nothing that human beings did caused this. It just happened. Why? Who knows?

Another example. Diphtheria used to be a huge killer. It became much less common in the U.S. by the 30s and early 40s. But the vaccine is usually given the credit for defeating this disease. However, diphtheria is still circulating in the U.S. It just doesn't happen to be the dangerous kind. What happened? Why the change? No one seems to know.

Vaccines are used as an explanation when they really didn't play a part, or played a minor role. This is a distortion of the evidence, always a bad idea, IMO.
I know. Just saying its still around and not deadly. I'm on your side.
post #16 of 56
I had another thought about your grandfather's argument.

Over half of the required (a.k.a. "recommended") vaccines are new to my generation (Gen X).

So yes, I was around before many diseases had vaccines. But as I've mentioned elsewhere, never in my 1980s childhood did we have to quarantine entire streets of children from a crippling rotavirus epidemic, an "epidemic" of one of the 4 strains (out of 100+) of cancer-causing HPV.
post #17 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tammyswanson View Post
Yeah, plus way back in the 'old days' people didn't know as much about cleanliness as they do today.

And like Deborah said, the diseases were burning themselves out even before the vaxes were 'invented'. I heard that Polio was the result of them spraying DDT on anything that moved...it was a systemic insecticide so it didn't wash off. Interesting how Polio surfaced more during the summer when farmers were spraying their crops with that stuff.
how interesing-never heard of the polio-ddt thing before. where can i read more? NAKKKKKK
post #18 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mama Poot View Post
Says my grandfather, who is healthy and robust in his mid-70's, despite having suffered through measles, mumps, scarlet fever, and pertussis as a child. Thoughts?
Well, my mom is in her mid-70s and said that everyone she knew had measles, mumps, rubella; no one died or was injured from them. She also had paralytic polio but did not mention anyone else she knew having it.
post #19 of 56
post #20 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sileree View Post
I know. Just saying its still around and not deadly. I'm on your side.
Okay! Actually you provoked me into writing a pretty good post, so the misunderstanding wasn't a waste of time on my side, thanks!
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Mothering › Forums › Health › Vaccinations › "People forget what it was like"