Delayed mumps vaccine for boy with single testicle?

[Alki Mama]

So far ds, 16 months, has not had any vaccinations. A few months ago he went in for a surgery to remove a dead testicle (thought it was undescended -- turned out it had lost blood supply). So he has one intact testicle.

His ped, a naturopath, supports whatever the parents' vax decisions are, and she asks us each visit what we're currently thinking about vaxes. I asked what she thought about getting the mumps vaccine now that we know he has just the one testicle, out of concerns over sterility. I know that the likelihood is very rare, but a lot of the stats say "and, anyway, men have an extra testicle in reserve..." and my son doesn't.

This was one of those hand-on-the-doorknob questions as we were leaving, so I didn't get to discuss it further with her, but she said that she'd recommend waiting till ds was 7 years old and then going ahead and getting the mumps vaccine alone.

1. What would you do? I'm researching this as well, but I'd love to hear opinions. Would you be comfortable letting your one-testicled son go unvaxxed due to the low risk of catching mumps and the even lower risk of sterility from it? Or would you think in this case that preserving his fertility should take precedence? Our ped's husband lost his fertility due to two undescended testicles that were operated on too late, and his mother totally blames herself. I don't want to harm my son, but I'm not sure which harm to risk.

2. What would be the reason for delaying till 7 years old? Has anyone heard that age specifically as a good one? I want to ask her about that further at our next visit. I imagine it has something to do with waiting till his body's stronger, but before puberty? But why not age 10 or 11 then?

In addition to the "normal" reasons for not vaxxing, I have a family history of multiple sclerosis, and I worry about adding to ds's risk. If it helps, ds doesn't go to daycare and we so far plan to home/unschool him, but of course he has some contact with the outside world.

Thanks for your input!

[Twinklefae]

I think (and this sounds hard) that I would not vax now. I would wait and hope for natural exposure during childhood. (And put some effort into finding it!)

The risks for sterility are all in adolescents and adults. So far as I know, it has never happened, and is only theroetical. Unfortunetly, I'm terrible at remember sources of information, so I can't back that up right now.

As for 7 I would imagine that that's in case your child starts puberty really young.

[Gitti]

We are in exactly the same situation. My grandson had to have one testicle removed for the same reasons.

His mom is not going to have him vaccinated ever. We do hope that he gets natural immunity through the infection, eventually. But even if he does not, he won't be tested for immunity because no matter what, he won't get the vaccine.

I think the reason for delaying would be to give him a chance to get the infection naturally. And that can wait until age 12.
Only male that are in puberty can be adversely affected.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Alki Mama

In addition to the "normal" reasons for not vaxxing, I have a family history of multiple sclerosis, and I worry about adding to ds's risk. If it helps, ds doesn't go to daycare and we so far plan to home/unschool him, but of course he has some contact with the outside world.

Thanks for your input!

Even without the reserve, the likelihood of your ds' one remaining testicle becoming sterile is still remote. With a family history of autoimmune issues, do you really think that your ds would be more angry at potentially having to use a sperm bank than developing a debilitating illness like MS due to a damaged immune system? Whatever decision you make there is a chance that he would not make the same decision when viewing the situation as an adult.

[Alki Mama]

Originally Posted by Gitti

We do hope that he gets natural immunity through the infection, eventually.

Do you have any idea how to expose kids to mumps in childhood? I remember chicken-pox parties (are they going to stop having those, too?).

[Nathan1097]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

Even without the reserve, the likelihood of your ds' one remaining testicle becoming sterile is still remote. With a family history of autoimmune issues, do you really think that your ds would be more angry at potentially having to use a sperm bank than developing a debilitating illness like MS due to a damaged immune system?

Not to mention becoming a eunuch if his other testicle were removed. The only other option then is to take testosterone replacement shots for the rest of his life.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Nathan1097

Not to mention becoming a eunuch if his other testicle were removed. The only other option then is to take testosterone replacement shots for the rest of his life.

??? I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion of mumps and orchitis.

There is no reason to suppose that he would have to have the other testicle removed for any reason. Even IF he contracted a clinical case of mumps, and IF his remaining testicle developed orchitis, and IF it was affected to the point of sterility, that does not mean it would have to be removed. Just because a testicle does not make enough or healthy sperm does not mean it is removed.

[lioralourie]

from the CDC website

The number of mumps cases reported annually in the United States remained below 300 during 2001-2005 (3, CDC unpublished data). However, a multistate outbreak with more than 4,000 reported cases, involving mainly Midwest states, occurred in 2006 (4, 5, CDC unpublished data). The source of the outbreak was unknown; however, the United Kingdom (U.K.) experienced a mumps epidemic that peaked in 2005 (6), and the mumps strain identified in the U.K. epidemic was the same as the one isolated in the U.S. outbreak. Mumps virus remains endemic in many countries throughout the world, and mumps vaccine is used in only 57% of World Health Organization member-countries (7).

CDC: Orchitis (swelling) happens in around 20%of mumps cases (male, puberty or older). http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001194.htm but other figures range up to 30%.

from Canada's Public Health agency http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/mumps-eng.php "Involvement of the reproductive organs is commonly unilateral; therefore, sterility as a result of mumps is rare. "

A very small handful of orchitis cases (from the CDC "although it is frequently bilateral, it rarely causes sterility") may experience sterility. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/sur...pt09-mumps.htm

so, chances of even contracting mumps are (unfortunately) quite slim. I'm trying to get both my kids mumps early. Until Puberty, virtually no bad outcomes.

After puberty, a 20% x 50% x ???

They state in the Canadian doc that "Transient but occasionally permanent deafness may occur, at an estimated rate of 0.5 to 5.0 per 100,000 " so the fact they can give no stats about sterility suggest that it occurs at a much, much lower rate, even, then the deafness...

So, being conservative,

1) FIRST HAS TO EVEN GET MUMPS
2) .25 chance of any level of Orchitis
3) x .50 because of 2 testicles, so lowers down to =.125 of testicle being affected
4) let's say, 1 case of actual sterility per 200,000 (that's x .000005)

SO if my math is right, that's a rate of chance of sterility of....

.00000063 in percentage form = .000063% or ....is this right? 6.3 cases of sterility (of even one testicle) per 10 million cases of mumps.

Please double check my logic, guys!

There's no where near even a fraction of ONE million cases of mumps a year. So using my logic above, I seriously doubt even one U.S. male experiences even one testicle becoming sterile in a year from mumps. Probably much more through accidents, maybe even BIKE BARS!! The Sterility argument is a huge sham of scare tactics!

[Deborah]

but if we stop vaccinating there will be huge outbreaks of this deadly disease--

isn't there a major problem with male infertility right now? and nobody is quite sure what the cause might be: environmental, or tight underpants, or...but I've never heard mumps proposed as one of the factors.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by Deborah

but if we stop vaccinating there will be huge outbreaks of this deadly disease--

isn't there a major problem with male infertility right now? and nobody is quite sure what the cause might be: environmental, or tight underpants, or...but I've never heard mumps proposed as one of the factors.

That's a good point. Maybe even the vaccine itself is related to that.

These decisions are so hard, but I am finally, finally realizing that we cannot protect our children from absolutely everything. In life, there is risk. And you just have to look at the facts and not make decisions based on fear. They throw all these statistics at us and we feel scared, but statistics do not tell the whole story. A vaccine MAY prevent something, (and may NOT), but at eh same time, it may cause other things, that migiht be even worse. Or cause things that are more long-term, down the road, that aren't known until later. You have to look at statistics with a critical eye. Were the cases of complications of chicken pox or mumps treated with abx or tylenol, etc? We don't know, because they are all lumped together. Were they treated with natural immune support or homeopathic or herbal remedies that support the body to clear the disease on its own? I believe that this goes a long way in reducing your risk of those complications even further.

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by Deborah

isn't there a major problem with male infertility right now? and nobody is quite sure what the cause might be: environmental, or tight underpants, or...but I've never heard mumps proposed as one of the factors.

I haven't either. But plastics and male infertility or undescended testicles comes up quite a bit here in Europe.

[Alki Mama]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

With a family history of autoimmune issues, do you really think that your ds would be more angry at potentially having to use a sperm bank than developing a debilitating illness like MS due to a damaged immune system?

No, that's true, and I appreciate what you've said. But are you suggesting a link between the mumps vaccine and MS? Do you have research on that that I could look at? I had heard of the Hep B vaccine & possibly the tetanus vaccine being linked to MS, although other research has contested that. Or are you suggesting a general link with vaccines compromising the immune system? Would one vaccine alone be enough to induce MS? It's a pretty mysterious illness -- even in identical twins, raised the same way, one could have MS and one could not. Women are twice as likely as men to get it, and people who live above a certain latitude in childhood. So no one really knows yet why it happens, and based on those data I can't see vaccines being the sole cause. I don't want to make my decision based on fear in either direction, which is why I'd be interesting in hearing what you might think about the issue.

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

??? I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion of mumps and orchitis.

Yeah, I was wondering that, too.

Originally Posted by lioralourie

So, being conservative,

1) FIRST HAS TO EVEN GET MUMPS
2) .25 chance of any level of Orchitis
3) x .50 because of 2 testicles, so lowers down to =.125 of testicle being affected
4) let's say, 1 case of actual sterility per 200,000 (that's x .000005)

SO if my math is right, that's a rate of chance of sterility of....

.00000063 in percentage form = .000063% or ....is this right? 6.3 cases of sterility (of even one testicle) per 10 million cases of mumps.

Please double check my logic, guys!

There's no where near even a fraction of ONE million cases of mumps a year. So using my logic above, I seriously doubt even one U.S. male experiences even one testicle becoming sterile in a year from mumps. Probably much more through accidents, maybe even BIKE BARS!! The Sterility argument is a huge sham of scare tactics!

Thanks so much for doing this research and math! After seeing it laid out like this, I'm leaning toward not having him get the mumps vaccine. I'll hope for some childhood exposure and reevaluate later if I feel the need.

FWIW, my ped whose husband is sterile adopted a toddler girl from overseas several years ago and they couldn't be happier. So I'll just try to help DS protect that intact testicle as best we can (cups for sports!!) but then hope for the best, and that we all recognize it when it's here.

Originally Posted by Deborah

isn't there a major problem with male infertility right now? and nobody is quite sure what the cause might be: environmental, or tight underpants, or...but I've never heard mumps proposed as one of the factors.

Well, no, but that's because mumps, if it did make a testicle sterile, would almost always make only one sterile. But since my son has only the one testicle, that's the one it would attack if it were going to, kwim? So, no, in the general population, mumps would never be a major factor for male infertility, but in my specific population of one...I wondered about the risk. I don't think even pro-vaxxerss would suggest that mumps is a major cause of male infertility, particularly as it's supposed to have been eradicated, right?

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm always open to more if you have it.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Alki Mama

No, that's true, and I appreciate what you've said. But are you suggesting a link between the mumps vaccine and MS? Do you have research on that that I could look at? I had heard of the Hep B vaccine & possibly the tetanus vaccine being linked to MS, although other research has contested that. Or are you suggesting a general link with vaccines compromising the immune system? Would one vaccine alone be enough to induce MS? It's a pretty mysterious illness -- even in identical twins, raised the same way, one could have MS and one could not. Women are twice as likely as men to get it, and people who live above a certain latitude in childhood. So no one really knows yet why it happens, and based on those data I can't see vaccines being the sole cause. I don't want to make my decision based on fear in either direction, which is why I'd be interesting in hearing what you might think about the issue.

I'm talking of the general link between vaccination and immune system disorders.

Could one vaccine trigger MS? Who knows. 'Just One' has done a lot of damage to a lot of people, some have several before their bodies are pushed over the edge, and some appear unaffected. But, MS is an immune system disorder and vaccines tamper with the immune system. Even if every affected person in your family had a different ISD that would appear to me to be a greater risk than if there were none.

You could give one vax and he could still get mumps. You could give the vax and he many not 'show' immunity; would you try another? Would you wait until he was older and consider his opinion? What if he doesn't get boosters as an adult?

[lioralourie]

[QUOTE

Could one vaccine trigger MS? Who knows. [/QUOTE]

Off topic, but the connection between Multiple Sclerosis as a direct result of the Hep.B vaccine is well established.

Multiple Sclerosis Risk to British Babies - Newly Revealed by
Previously Concealed - September 27 - 2005 Evidence
http://www.vran.org/vaccines/doctors/ms-girard.htm

And more hard medical fact in papers by the French Court appointed
medical expert Dr Marc Girard can be found here
http://www.vran.org/vaccines/doctors/girard.htm

including this reference:
Other research supporting Dr Girard's findings includes research on UK
data showing a 3.1 increase in the relative risk of multiple sclerosis
after hepatitis B vaccination (Neurology 2004; 63:838-42).

[lioralourie]

Originally Posted by Gitti

plastics and male infertility or undescended testicles comes up quite a bit here in Europe.

True. Any infertility that is occurring, and it seems to be occurring equally in both men and women, is due to plastics in our food, and in our bodies. Endocrine Disruptors, you know.

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/a-c...ic-danger.html

[Sileree]

This is what the Health Protection Agency of the U.K. says on their mumps page:

“Despite common belief there is no firm evidence that orchitis causes sterility.”

[lioralourie]

Originally Posted by Sileree

This is what the Health Protection Agency of the U.K. says on their mumps page:
“Despite common belief there is no firm evidence that orchitis causes sterility.”

I'm floored~! GREAT work Sileree!

[Alki Mama]

Thanks for all the help!

Originally Posted by lioralourie

Off topic, but the connection between Multiple Sclerosis as a direct result of the Hep.B vaccine is well established.

I know Dr. Girard is a staunch defender of his conclusions and claims forgeries and suppression of his results, but there are people weighing in on the other side of the argument as well (eg, http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/344/5/327). That's why I said that "other research has contested" the Hep B vaccine-to-MS link. I'm not saying that one or the other side is correct. With the amount of evidence on the side of MS potentially being caused by vaccinations (eg, http://www.springerlink.com/content/wtmwm6x2kvfv384k/, http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...7196976~db=all), I'd rather be safe than sorry when possible. But I'm not sure that we can say that the link has been proven yet. I don't want to believe that everyone on the side of saying there is no causal link is working for Big Vaccine and can't be trusted. Maybe it's so, but I'd rather not automatically assume that. I'll keep watching the research coming in and see.

Originally Posted by Sileree

This is what the Health Protection Agency of the U.K. says on their mumps page:

“Despite common belief there is no firm evidence that orchitis causes sterility.”

This is so helpful! Thank you for finding that. That's definitely an avenue for me to research. If the fear of sterility from mumps is orchitis, and orchitis doesn't cause sterility, then there would be no fear of sterility from mumps. (Unless it's from some other mumps-induced vehicle.) Anyway, I'll try to see if I can find statistics on orchitis and cases of sterility vs. cases of sterility in the general population, and also any further statistics on higher sterility rates following mumps infection. It will be helpful to have some data in hand when I talk further with DS's doctor, not that she'd push us one way or the other.

Thanks to everyone for helping me think this through. I'll come back with anything more I learn about mumps and testicles, in case it would help someone else making a similar decision. For now, I'm leaning toward not vaccinating for it, but I'm glad there's no time pressure to decide.

[lioralourie]

what you could do is just

1) not vax for it while your son is young.

2) Hope he gets natural immunity against Mumps along the way, and

3) Test for titres when he is 12 (or entering puberty) and then re-evaluate a vaccination around that time.

Sterility from orchitis doesn't happen before puberty, and the vaccine if given at age 1 typically wears off by around puberty, anyhow.