Hostile mom at co-op

[mammal_mama]

Hi, I thought I'd post here to get a wide variety of insights.

My 8yo enjoys the Friday morning co-op hosted by our neighborhood Christian homeschooling group (which we just joined this past April). While our older kids are in co-op, we moms with small children hang out in the church nursery with our littles.

We seem to be the only unschoolers in this group, and I also seem to be the the only mom who doesn't believe in punitive discipline. But while I've sometimes sensed that I was getting strange looks about how I was dealing with my rambunctious, aggressive 3yo, the other moms seem to have accepted that I do take responsibility and closely supervise my child, and seem to have accepted us into the group.

But there's a mom who's just started bringing her kids to the fall co-op (who was in the group before and is close friends with the group-leader). Her youngest is 3 like mine, so she's been in the nursery, too. And I've heard her expressing her views about the importance of parental-control.

Anyhow, at the first co-op I felt irritated with her for snatching a toy out of my 3yo's hand and speaking sternly to her (though my 3yo had taken the toy from this woman's son, I saw it and was right there to deal with dd, only the other mom was seated right behind my dd and just jumped in there). However, I decided not to confront her right then, and just to be extra-vigilant so she'd realize she really didn't need to deal with my child.

At the next co-op (last week), I was getting a toy down for another child, and didn't notice dd grab a toy phone out of a 4yo's hand. I looked down and said something like, "Oh, you found that phone you like" -- and this other mom came rushing up behind me, and angrily said, "NO! She TOOK that RIGHT out of HER HAND!"

And of course I said "OH!" and turned to talk with my dd. But this other mom stood next to me, loudly telling dd, "NO! You need to give that back to her RIGHT NOW!" So I turned to her and said, "I will deal with this" -- and she backed off and I talked with my dd, who handed back the toy within about 30 seconds.

For tomorrow's co-op, we have another family coming over afterwards for lunch, and the plan is that my 3yo and I will walk my 8yo over, then return home so my 3yo can have some downtime before our friends come over, and then the other family will bring my 8yo home with them.

So I shouldn't have any dealings with this other mom tomorrow, and this may be how I deal with the rest of the fall co-ops -- but there are some other group activities we'd like to be part of. I probably shouldn't assume that there will be more problems, since this other mom did back off when I set my boundary -- but thought it would be a good idea to post here in case anyone has additional insights, maybe even about where this other mom might be coming from.

I think part of her animosity comes from her disapproving of me not seeming to be "in control" -- and the fact that my 3yo also has some difficult behaviors just feeds into her hostile assumption that I'm doing things all wrong. It's okay for her to think that -- I disagree with some of her parenting, I just don't jump into the middle of her interactions with her child, so to me she seems to be seriously lacking in respect for others who do things differently from her.

[ABand3]

You may have put an end to it by setting the boundry - it sounds like the other mom got the point, at least for that instance, but maybe for the future too. I wouldn't avoid hanging out if you otherwise enjoy the time in the nursery. If it happened again I would have a conversation restating the boundry (i.e., please don't yell at my child, allow me the time/space to speak to my child; if you see a problem, speak to me, not my child about it.)

It's tough when you're in a group with very different parenting styles, but I think mutal respect is possible.

[chfriend]

She sounds like an asshat. I think your extra vigilance and handling it will be enough to get her back on her side of the line at least for a while.

[CariOfOz]

Originally Posted by chfriend

She sounds like an asshat.

: Um.. since when is nastiness to a 3yo Christlike behavior? Geez I'm not even Christian but I think I could agree with kindness to children Here's hoping the rude lady clued in and you and your little one have a more enjoyable time at the rest of the coops.

[milehighmonkeys]

She may have experienced similar behavior from other children whose parents weren't willing to correct their own child. Our DD has had this happen to her several times and the parents typically ignore the behavior. I don't correct the other person's child, though. I usually just explain to DD (usually later after we've left) that not everyone plays the same way she does and try to calm her down without making a scene.

[Leav97]

Originally Posted by ABand3

please don't yell at my child, allow me the time/space to speak to my child; if you see a problem, speak to me, not my child about it.

Yeah That

From the last problem it sounded like her child wasn't even involved. You may need to point if this is a problem in the future.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by milehighmonkeys

She may have experienced similar behavior from other children whose parents weren't willing to correct their own child. Our DD has had this happen to her several times and the parents typically ignore the behavior. I don't correct the other person's child, though. I usually just explain to DD (usually later after we've left) that not everyone plays the same way she does and try to calm her down without making a scene.

I'm sorry you've had that experience! I suppose she may have had bad experience with more lenient parents in the past -- and assumed she couldn't trust me to handle things, and just jumped right in.

I didn't add every detail, so as not to make my op too extremely long. But early on in that very first morning, I'd been sitting right next to my daughter as she and this other mom's son played with toy cars -- but had turned to say something to another mom. As I was turning back, I thought I saw (in the corner of my eye) dd's arm moving like she was hitting the boy.

So I quickly asked dd, "Did you just hit him?" and dd said "No." She's usually honest about whatever she's done, and the other child wasn't crying or anything -- but then the other mom said, "She did just hit him."

So of course I pulled dd into my lap and talked with her about how she doesn't like to be hurt, and the other child didn't like it either, and if we were going to play in the nursery, she needed to be gentle with the other kids. And when dd returned to playing, of course I continued to stay close.

The earlier hitting incident was partly why I hadn't gotten onto the mom for snatching from my dd; I thought she might still be a little miffed over dd hitting her son, and over the fact that I was so quick to take dd's word when she said she hadn't hit -- and yet the other child hadn't acted upset, so if the other mom hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have seen any reason to assume that my child wasn't telling the truth.

But after we were home and I was changing dd's diaper, she suddenly started telling me that she was mad at me for making her sit in my lap, and she told me that the boy had taken her car form her. So I talked with her about how, instead of hitting, she should tell me, "Mommy, (boy's name) took my car!"

And dd said, "Oh, he took your car, too, Mommy?" -- so I guess that particular lesson was kind of lost for the moment. I felt badly that I hadn't even tried to find out dd's reason for hitting at the time -- I've just gotten so used to her hitting with absolutely no provocation (or at least none that was readily obvious), that it hadn't occurred to me that the other child might have done something to upset her.

Not that his taking the car made it okay for dd to hit him -- but if I'd known at the time, I could have talked with her right then about how to alert me to the problem.

[mammal_mama]

And thanks to everyone for taking time to share your thoughts and ideas!

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by ABand3

It's tough when you're in a group with very different parenting styles, but I think mutal respect is possible.

I agree.

I am part of a co-op as well and I realize all parents discipline their children differently. However, it could be possible that this woman has witnessed your child taking something away from her child or other children on several occasions and it may be getting to the point where it is upsetting her that you don't see it or don't do anything. I'm not siding with the other woman but I'd probably try and be more aware of my own child just in case.

Oh and I do not condone her snatching anything away from your young child like that. That was wrong on her part. If she does have a problem she needs to confront you on it and it sounds to me like she is hiding the problem and it came out in her outburst. I may be wrong though.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mommy68

However, it could be possible that this woman has witnessed your child taking something away from her child or other children on several occasions and it may be getting to the point where it is upsetting her that you don't see it or don't do anything. I'm not siding with the other woman but I'd probably try and be more aware of my own child just in case.

I can sure understand your mentioning that as a possibility! However, that simply hasn't been the case here. I always keep close to my child, because she needs so much help getting along, and am constantly encouraging her to say things like, "When you're done playing with that, can I have a turn?"

So I'm confident that in the 2 weeks I've known this mom, there haven't been several occasions of dd taking things, and me not noticing or not doing anything about it -- that's simply not the kind of parent I am: fairness is very important to me.

And last week, dd and I actually spent very little time in the nursery -- because dd had come in and started throwing toys around, and I ended up taking her outside and we spent most of the morning playing out there.

(And no one else had had to say anything about the toy-throwing: The first time it happened, I took dd aside and talked with her, and when she continued I scooped her up and took her out -- and no child had been hit by the toys, and I also managed to put the toys up, too, so we didn't even leave a mess for anyone else to clean up).

Anyhow, within the last 30 minutes or so of co-op, dd wanted to come back inside, and we headed back to the nursery -- and actually went into the adjacent toyroom where some of the other kids were playing. Since I was the only adult in there, it was natural for the children to ask me for help and ask me to get toys down that they couldn't reach. And that was how I happened to be looking away when dd snatched the toy-phone.

However, if this other mom hadn't come in and seen the incident (I actually think that seeing dd and me come in was what prompted her to go in there), I have no doubt the 4yo was getting ready to tell me herself what happened -- she's a very verbal child and has always been comfortable telling me things. So while this mom may have "felt" that it was "all on her" to uphold justice and protect the rights of the other children, that just wasn't the reality. The 4yo would have told me and I still would have dealt with it.

When I told dh about the incidents, he said it sounds like dd is noticing when I'm giving attention to others, and is using those moments to try to get away with stuff. He thinks I just need to keep my eyes trained on her at all times, and refuse to help other kids, and just tell them to ask their mothers to help them.

But that feels too unnatural to me, and if that's what it's really come down to, then it feels better to me to do what I'm doing this morning -- walking my 8yo over, and coming back home with my 3yo for the morning, and either arranging with my friend to drop her off at home, or walking back over at the end to get her.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mommy68

If she does have a problem she needs to confront you on it and it sounds to me like she is hiding the problem and it came out in her outburst. I may be wrong though.

I think her "problem" may be that she learned early on in the first week that we're unschoolers. One of my friends mentioned it, not knowing that dh and I have decided not to be so open about our unschooling from now on, since getting hotlined.

I think her realization that I'm doing things very differently from her, combined with the readily observable fact that my 3yo is a real handful, may have caused her to feel that we don't really belong in the group.

Though I've generally felt a welcome there, I know some of the mothers really feel good about the thought of controlling who their children are influenced by -- and, well, my 3yo probably doesn't seem like the greatest influence right now.

I get the feeling that this mom would probably like me better if showed more "humility," and was crying and saying "I just don't know how to handle her" and asking her and the other moms for advice about how to get control of my child. So it's probably actually my seeming confidence in what I'm doing, combined with my 3yo's very rambunctious and aggressive behavior, that really makes her feel so disgusted with me.

Avoidance probably is the best plan of action for us right now.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

I think her "problem" may be that she learned early on in the first week that we're unschoolers. One of my friends mentioned it, not knowing that dh and I have decided not to be so open about our unschooling from now on, since getting hotlined.

That definitely sounds like the root of the problem, but who knows. Since you say that she really hasn't had a chance to witness your child doing anything wrong then she obviously is the one with the "problem" it seems. Sorry you are going through this. This is one area of homeschooling that I have always struggled with, getting along with other moms and the way they do things with their children.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

Though I've generally felt a welcome there, I know some of the mothers really feel good about the thought of controlling who their children are influenced by -- and, well, my 3yo probably doesn't seem like the greatest influence right now.

But that's not right on her part to act that way just because your 3 yo is acting, well, like a usual 3 yo. If she has a problem then it's her problem and she needs to find a way to deal with it. If you are happy in the group otherwise, then yes I think avoidance is the best thing at this point. She sounds like she would be hard to work around anyway. I'm sure if it were some other issue then this would be the mom with a problem. I've witnessed many like that.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mommy68

Since you say that she really hasn't had a chance to witness your child doing anything wrong then she obviously is the one with the "problem" it seems.

Oh I didn't mean that she'd never had a chance to witness dd doing anything wrong. I only meant that I knew there hadn't been repeated incidents of dd doing stuff to other kids and me not noticing and/or not doing anything.

Sorry you are going through this.

Thanks!

[elizawill]

man ,that would make me insane for someone to overstep me and discipline my kids while i was right there. definitely, continue to go to functions and don't avoid field trips just because of her. she probably won't do it again since you put her in her place, but if she should, i'd recommend she visit http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/ or perhaps you could slip a copy of "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" in her handbag when she's not looking!

[mammal_mama]

Well, my friend who brought dd home, and who ate lunch with us and visited this afternoon, actually brought up the issue of discipline (she's the mom of dd's new girlfriend at co-op, and also has 3 younger kids. We've gotten together a few times since we met at last spring's co-op, and our kids all enjoy playing together.

While our kids were playing, my friend said that she'd noticed I don't discipline. So I shared a little about my views on discipline -- that I don't believe in spanking or punishing, but in helping kids learn how to handle various situations.

I shared about my difficulty with the other mother -- and I asked if it was her perception that I just sat back and let dd bully the kids, and didn't do anything about it. And she said that wasn't her impression -- that it just seemed like I was always having to run around after dd, and she thought if I disciplined her, then I'd probably be able to relax and visit more like the other moms were able to do.

She started sharing about this book she's been reading -- Train Up a Child by the Pearls -- and said she'd started out pretty unstructured, and now she's paying for it, because she's having such a hard time getting her kids to listen when they're out buying groceries, or trying to get various things done. I said a lot of that will just get easier as your kids get a little older (they're 7, 5, 3, and 7 months) -- but she said, "I need it to happen now."

I said that I strongly disagree with the blanket-training the Pearls advocate (where you place your baby on a blanket and smack her leg everytime she ventures off, 'til Baby learns to stay on the blanket to avoid the pain).

My friend said that now she can see the value in practices like this, because there are things that just have to get done, and she could see how this kind of training would make things so much easier for a mom, and also help the whole family. And things are just so hard with her kids right now, that she feels like she's paying for her previous lack of structure.

I said I didn't see anything healthy about training a baby to fear exploration -- that babies are developmentally-geared to want to be active and explore the world, and that's what they should be doing. As parents we need to keep them safe -- childproof and all that -- but not punish them for exploring.

She didn't see the blanket-training as punishment -- but more as training and teaching boundaries. She said that God doesn't just let us freely explore (whereas I actually do feel that God encourages us to explore -- different perceptions, I guess ). Anyhow, she feels like it's okay to do the blanket-training, as long as they still have certain times when they can explore.

She just seems so determined to get more structured and have more control over her own kids -- and I guess seeing all the homeschooling moms with huge families, who are totally in control and manage to keep everything running smoothly, has fueled her desire to learn how they do it.

But I'm glad we were able to share our views so freely and respectfully. I've told her I probably won't do the nursery-thing at co-op for the time-being -- but that they're welcome to come for lunch and play as often as they like.

[elizawill]

how sad that "to train up a child" is a parenting book she values. please print this and share it with her! it's what i do whenever i have the opportunity! http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=pastor

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by elizawill

man ,that would make me insane for someone to overstep me and discipline my kids while i was right there. definitely, continue to go to functions and don't avoid field trips just because of her. she probably won't do it again since you put her in her place, but if she should, i'd recommend she visit http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/ or perhaps you could slip a copy of "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" in her handbag when she's not looking!

Maybe I will have an opening to suggest GCM sometime!

I probably won't avoid her forever -- I just see this as a really hard time. I see how much my 3yo has matured over the last several months, and I know things will keep improving -- whereas I think the other moms just compare her behavior with their own 3yo's behavior and are horrified.

She's definitely way out there at the intense, physical, aggressive, loud and wild end of the spectrum. I honestly wouldn't change a thing about her -- I just realize that, uhm, other mothers aren't looking upon this as any great achievement, or anything they'd personally like to emulate.

I keep reading about all these AP mamas who are puzzled by aggressive toddlers, because their own children are so extremely gentle ... and I'm sure these mothers can have a tremendous influence, because other moms see their gentle, well-behaved children and are probably eager to learn how they do it.

Whereas other moms probably just want to learn what I'm doing 'cause then they'll know what to avoid. But maybe some day it will be different ...

[elizawill]

well, you aren't alone mama. my son can be agressive and difficult....but he has grown leaps and bounds and is is becoming easier every day. my daughter is so easy-going & always has been... but my ds - whoa!...i seriously should have been given an instruction manual with him or something, ha ha. i have to still watch him closely and i fully admit, i'd rather sit on my booty and talk to people at co-ops or playdates...but unfortunately, GD is far from permissive parenting and requires a lot on the parent's part...especially in the early years. i'm sure i look like a pushover to some people when my ds has yelled "i hate you" and i don't spank him or put soap in his mouth, but instead we talk about it and simply go home if he continues (the logical consequence imo). i don't create battles over every little thing, and i give my kids a lot of freedom to make choices, express themselves, and just get messy & barefoot (the last one makes people the most annoyed, lol). but my overall goal is the relationship i'm forming with my kids & i deeply believe in my heart of hearts that hitting children is simply wrong. i still discipline my kids of course, but not in a way that involves pain or shame.

my advice is that you look at this as an "opportunity" to show a better way to the many people God seems to be placing in your path (who obviously have misguided ideas about the bible and discipline). hugs.

[alexsam]

This may TOTALLY not be you- just saying from my own other experiences... Sometimes one really difficult kid in a playgroup can make things pretty unpleasant for the others. Again, not saying this is you or your DD, but its happened to us. A really challenging kid and a mom with a very flexible method of discipline... And what ended up happening is that the rest of us watched as our kids had toys taken from them, were hit, their play disrupted, etc. and while I totally understood that the other mom wanted to talk to her daughter and for her to give the toys back on her own, stop hitting, etc. It also felt a little unfair that our children had to bear the brunt of it as their waited for their snatched toys back, were hurt by hitting, were patient while their play was interrupted... It seemed that that mother's quest for patience and social learning for her own child, the rest of ours were mere lessons, not kids who had been wronged and deserved to have their rights upheld even if it meant that the other child was not always willing to abide. I would never have had a problem with this other mom/kid if I felt like even if her discipline was different, she aknowledged that her daughter's actions hurt or were unjust toward my son, did something so that her daughter saw that too, and rectified it. Unfortunately, it always seemed like her version of discipline never really addressed that the other kids had rights too.

Just saying- even if this is not what you intended, not how you see yourself, or not what is really happening, the other mother may view it that way.